Forced Air Diesel Fuel Burner

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Art B - THANKS! - Your explanation of flame front/speed/propagation has helped me a lot!
"the velocity through the holes is higher then the propagation rate but goes below the rate as soon has it passes through the plate. The number and size of the holes will set the flame front about 1/16" in front of the plate" - That is really key to my design work when I make ceramic burners. Too small a burner (to high pressure in the mixing chamber) results in flame lifting-off the ceramic, to much ceramic and too little mixing chamber pressure permits flash-back through the ceramic (you can see the "hot-zone" working down through the ceramic until it ignites the gas mix beneath!). I think I can now solve a similar problem with a wire mesh matrix burner that also flashes back (reliably!).
A valuable explanation of how these velocity plates work.
Thanks,
K2
 
Does anyone know of a simple MathCAD tool or something that can model gas flow from one chamber to another through a series of chambers? My attempts on Excel spreadsheets are just too "childish" to manage a complex burner design and boiler. But there may be something that someone knows and uses? Back in the early 1980s, a "Doctor of maths" wrote a computer model that I used for a few years designing single stroke high speed pneumatic actuators. Fantastic results, doubled performance of the actuators, but I haven't seen anything like it since.
K2
 
Excellent. GT, What would you adjust to get a clean flame (not a reducing flame as you need to eliminate oxygen from the melt)? I am familiar with Pottery kilns using reducing gas fired flames for the same reason as in your furnace. (It creates brighter colours in the glaze than an "oxidising" atmosphere).
A steam boiler (IMHO) needs a balanced air-fuel ratio at (close to) stoichiometric ratio to be clean of CO without excess air that simply reduces boiler efficiency? (Power stations have monitors for CO and O2, just like the car exhaust systems, and feed-back to the air blowers to regulate the mixture - or they did back in the 1970s!).
The significant differences between a boiler and furnace I think are as below:
Furnace - uses refractory insulation so any direct flame impinging on the surface heats above CO combustion temperature, so maintains the combustion to completion of all the O2 or fuel.
But: The boiler firebox surfaces are below CO combustion temperature (and water-cooled to steam temperature by the boiler water) therefore any flame impinging on boiler firebox walls is immediately quenched to stop the CO combustion. This can be tested by taking a CO meter into the exhaust, or extracting a sample of exhaust and igniting it in air at the end of the sample tube. (CO burns with a near invisible dark blue flame).
The furnace is so hot, the surplus heat and exhaust is vented rapidly. The main aim is adequate power from combustion and insulation so all the combustion heat is concentrated - and lower temperature gases post combustion would cool the melt, not helping the melt.
In a boiler, all the heat should be captured - down to steam temperature by boiler-tubes, etc. - or below steam temperature by the addition of feed water economisers. "Efficient" boilers start with high temperatures of combustion - for high heat flow into the water - and long passages - to extract as much heat as possible to the water - before the exhaust leaves the boiler. Furnaces use "just the hottest bit from combustion" and exhaust cooler gases where there is no further combustion.
Boilers that have superheaters in "post-boiler" exhaust that can raise the steam temperature above boiling temp. are actually passing HOT (wasted) exhaust up the chimney. And boilers are all about efficiency...
I'm sure there are other differences, but that is just my view on the significant points for Toymaker to consider?
Hope this "meddle" helps a bit... just my ideas...
K2
There are some interesting points made here, and I will attempt to comment as best I can.

Keep in mind that pretty much everything I know about burners and burner combustion comes directly from Art B, and some information from a white paper written by the lead engineer at Delavan.
If Art B disagrees with anything I say, you can rest assured that Art is correct, and I am wrong.

I can verify that what Art B says about tuning a burner to achieve maximum temperatures is true in practice with my furnace and burner.

I have heard of situations where an oxidizing flame may be desirable, but I don't recall the circumstances.

The interior of the furnace does get very hot, and I think the heat transfer from the burner is first via heating the walls and lid of the furnace, and then via IR radiation, heating the crucible.
I don't think the flame itself necessarily does much heating of the crucible, since the flame never impinges directly on the crucible.
The crucible manufacturers state that direct flame impingement on a crucible will cause it to quickly fail.

In a video made by a crucible manufacturer, they said that the plinth (the support pedestal that the crucible sits on top of) should be made of a material that easily conducts heat into the bottom of the crucible. The only plinth material I have found to hold up to iron temperatures for repeated melts is Mizzou, but there are surely other materials that will withstand iron temperatures.
I am not sure how well Mizzou conducts heat into the bottom of the crucible, but the last thing you want is for your plinth to crumble in mid-iron melt.

They do make spray on ceramic coatings for a furnace interior, such as ITC-100, that are suppose to help reflect heat back into the crucible.
I have tried ITC, but can't tell any difference in melt time. I have never gotten scientific about measuring it though.
The slag on top of an iron melt tends to get whipped up in the air stream, and it splatters onto the walls and lid inside the furnace, so any interior coating gets covered in slag relatively quickly, which is why I stopped using ITC.

One online source says that crucible furnaces are 7-19% efficient, which means that most of the heat energy is going out the furnace lid.
I have seen designs for recuporators, and they consist of a heat exchanger located in the exhaust stream of the furnace, and the combustion air is preheated in the recuporator to perhaps 1,000 F before it enters the burner tube.

I seriously considered using a recuporator, but decided against it because of the coking/sludge problems you can have when operating a hot burner tube/nozzle. The plumbing required for a recuporator is significant, and could seriously obstruct the furnace operation and lid opening method.
There is no amount of efficiency gain from a recuporator that would justify my use of a recuporator in a backyard casting setting.

Any steel that is exposed to high temperatures does not last very long, and thus another reason to not use a recuporator.
The recuporator would have to be made from a refractory material in order to last any amount of time.

I have experimented with dual oil burners, with the burners located at 180 degrees.
This arrangement is found on several commercial furnace designs, in sizes in the range of my furnace, or somewhat larger.

A few things I noticed about my dual burner arrangement was:
1. The velocity of combustion air to each burner tube was reduced by 1/2.
2. The flames were very evenly spread around the bottom of the furnace, as opposed to a single burner tube with higher combustion air velocity, where the high speed combustion air causes the flame to climb up the back of the furnace at a 45 degree angle (you can see these effects when the burner(s) are first started, and the furnace lid is open).

I am of the opinion that the lower the combustion air stream velocity, the longer the combustion gasses have to transfer their energy to the furnace walls and crucible.
To achieve the temperatures required for an iron melt, you have to pump a given amount of combustion air and fuel into a furnace, and so reducing that velocity by 1/2 by using two burners I think would speed up the melt, especially in the warmup phase of furnace operation.

I did not know how to tune burners when I was experimenting with my dual burner experiments, and so it was impossible to tell if they worked better than a single burner.
I do intend to try dual burners at 180 degrees again.
Based on what others have reported recently, I think I will have good results with a dual 180 degree arrangement that is correctly tuned, with a noticeably shorter time to reach pour temperature with iron.

.
 
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All I do is melt aluminium in a 3" pot - using a paraffin blowlamp or 2 with flames impinging on the firebrick and lapping around the pot. an "ounce" of metal compared to your "Lbs"! The only people who melt less than me are jewellers and dentists! But it is fun to create something from melting scrap.
K2
 
Back to the plot: Toymaker, are you any better informed now? I have learned a LOT!
What design of boiler are you looking at? -A wet boiler or Flash boiler? In your first post you mentioned a water tube boiler, but later posted some info on Flash tube boilers?
I'd love to see what you are planning for this large burner.
K2
 
All I do is melt aluminium in a 3" pot - using a paraffin blowlamp or 2 with flames impinging on the firebrick and lapping around the pot. an "ounce" of metal compared to your "Lbs"! The only people who melt less than me are jewellers and dentists! But it is fun to create something from melting scrap.
K2
The jewelry folks to use direct flame impingment on their small crucibles, but those crucibles are relatively inexpensive.

I really like metal casting as a hobby, and was thrilled when I first poured aluminum.
I was even more excited when I finally figured out how to consistently pour iron.

The backyard casting thing really makes model engine building exciting for me.
Perhaps it is like when you are a kid, and playing with fire is a lot of fun.
.

Edit: Ditto, sorry for the thread hijacking toymaker.
 
And this is what the furnace looks like during an iron melt.

Nice clean burn with no smoke, and a reducing atmosphere inside the furnace (some excess yellow flames out the lid opening), to minimize oxidation of the iron.

Shaded welding glasses are needed for iron melts, due to the high level of infrared coming off the radiant surfaces.

The two gauges are for fuel tank pressure (10 psi), and compressed air pressure (between 15-25 psi).
The valve tree in front of the blower was for testing purposes, and it not needed to operate the burner.

The combustion air dump valve is the PVC valve sticking up in the air above the leaf blower.

.

View attachment 139426
Hmmmmmmmmmmm - - - what shade of welding glasses are you using?
In the #3 to #5 range like for use with oxy-fuel cutting equipment or ?????

TIA
 
Back to the plot: Toymaker, are you any better informed now? I have learned a LOT!
What design of boiler are you looking at? -A wet boiler or Flash boiler? In your first post you mentioned a water tube boiler, but later posted some info on Flash tube boilers?
I'd love to see what you are planning for this large burner.
K2

Do I feel better informed now? Mostly yes, but,...

A lot of really good information has been presented; the detailed info on kerosene burners is especially appreciated. Everything I've read has convinced me that my burner design will work as I intended it to.

But,... I didn't see any answers concerning the allusive blue flame and any connection to CO emissions. So I searched the internet and found this article from Iowa State University discussing Carbon Monoxide Poisoning in relation to burners. The article focuses on safety and about half way down gives this caution on relying solely on visual colors of the flame: "Burners producing EXTREMELY high concentrations of carbon monoxide can burn blue. Conversely, burners producing little carbon monoxide can burn yellow."

I still don't have CO tester, but I will get one just to be on the safe side.
 
Puzzled by Iowa stay comment.
CO and air burns blue.
In an oxidising mix (the Bunsen flame) the HydroCarbon fuel ionises and burns light blue to H2O and CO.
The residual CO burns blue.
Any unburned C after the first phase is illuminating the flame anything from red to white, depending on the temperature of the gas, and whether there is any residual O2 to burn the C when above 550C.
If a lack of O2 in the first phase, you have a reducing flame, that is yellow from heated carbon which cannot burn much... so maybe that is what they mean by a yellow flame not making much CO? Gas flames for lighting gave Victorians bad headaches from the CO!
But your design of oil burner is a cloud of HC aerosol, in some air, that burns and mixes with lots of external air. Beyond my knowledge.
I would guess with enough external air mixing the flame will burn all the C to CO then CO to CO2...?
K2
 
Back to Toymaker's burner, he wants 14l per hour fuel consumption, for the power he needs to generate the steam he wants. How do your burners and strings scale up to his?
K2

I'm pretty much convinced that my burner is working nicely just the way it is. I'm super happy with the thin stainless steel plate I placed over the exhaust area, and how it has effectively kept the burning gases inside the combustion chamber just long enough to more completely oxidize any unburnt carbons. I can now burn in excess of 14 L/Hr with only a few yellow flames licking out of the exhaust.

I don't believe I mentioned in this thread that my steam engine, burner included, is intended to be mobile; light weight and small size are highly valued in the design.
 
Puzzled by Iowa stay comment.
CO and air burns blue.
In an oxidising mix (the Bunsen flame) the HydroCarbon fuel ionises and burns light blue to H2O and CO.
The residual CO burns blue.
Any unburned C after the first phase is illuminating the flame anything from red to white, depending on the temperature of the gas, and whether there is any residual O2 to burn the C when above 550C.
If a lack of O2 in the first phase, you have a reducing flame, that is yellow from heated carbon which cannot burn much... so maybe that is what they mean by a yellow flame not making much CO? Gas flames for lighting gave Victorians bad headaches from the CO!
But your design of oil burner is a cloud of HC aerosol, in some air, that burns and mixes with lots of external air. Beyond my knowledge.
I would guess with enough external air mixing the flame will burn all the C to CO then CO to CO2...?
K2

Since the exhaust from my burner melts aluminum in a mater of seconds, I'm fairly certain the burning gasses still inside the combustion chamber are in excess of 660 C (aluminum melting point) which is well above the 609 C needed for Autoignition of CO. So even if I cannot see a blue flame inside the combustion chamber and the exhaust gases are yellow feathers,...I doubt any CO could remain.
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmm - - - what shade of welding glasses are you using?
In the #3 to #5 range like for use with oxy-fuel cutting equipment or ?????

TIA
I use a standard gas welding shade of glasses, similar to sunglasses, but for gas welding, with a faceshield over that attached to a hardhat.

The eyes get sunburned rather quickly from the IR, and I found that out the hard way, and it felt like I had sand in my eyes for a few days.

In the long term, the IR will cause cataracts, so the shaded glasses are needed.
.
 
My plan is to use the burner shown here in a water tube boiler. At max output, the burner consumes 14 liters of diesel per hour. One liter of diesel produces 10.6 KWh of energy, therefore 14 liters = 148KWh. The slotted burner "cans" and the external housing are both made from stainless steel drinking cups. The brass colored nozzle is a siphon type and uses 1 to 7 psi air pressure to atomize the diesel fuel. A small cordless leaf blower (blue) forces air in between the outer shell and slotted burner cans; that air is guided through a ring of steel vanes which cause the air to swirl around the annular assembly, helping to cool both outer and inner stainless steel cans. Notice how the burning combustion gases are kept away from the inner metal structures.
View attachment 133525 View attachment 133526 View attachment 133527

View attachment 133528
View attachment 133529

One minor point with units.

Liters per hour can be converted to BTU's per hour, but that converts to KW, not KW per hour.

Here is a chart that I made.

Oil Burner Approximate Values:
1 gal/hr = 138,500 Btu/hr (40.59 kW)
2 gal/hr = 277,000 Btu/hr (81.18 kW)
3 gal/hr = 415,500 Btu/hr (121.77 kW)
4 gal/hr = 554,000 Btu/hr (162.36 kW)
5 gal/hr = 692,500 Btu/hr (202.96 kW)
6 gal/hr = 831,000 Btu/hr (243.55 kW)
7 gal/hr = 969,500 Btu/hr (284.14 kW)
8 gal/hr = 1,108,000 Btu/hr (324.73 kW)
9 gal/hr = 1,246,500 Btu/hr (365.32 kW)
10 gal/hr = 1,385,000 Btu/hr (405.92 kW)
11 gal/hr = 1,523,500 Btu/hr (446.51 kW)
12 gal/hr = 1,662,000 Btu/hr (487.10 kW)

.
 
Hi T, I like that logic!
I'm learning all the time! Pity my ceramic burners don't follow the same logic. I can have anything from dull orange to approaching yellow on the suffice of the ceramic element, yet if not enough primary air there will be unburned CO from flames above and away from the ceramic. I really have to work on the tuning to entrain enough primary air as there is no secondary air in my boilers. The flames really have to be short to be CO free.
Another thought I had... While I realise the end plate is increasing pressure within the burner, hence compressing the flames to higher temperature and more complete combustion, I don't know if removing the plate would affect your boiler, with the large flame released? As long a combustion gases do not impinge on metal in the firebox, the radiant heat transfer is a major advantage of your flames for heat transfer. Radiant heat from "dirty" combustion being drawn up the flue tubes was a major advantage to the performance (steaming rate) of George Stephenson's multi tube boiler when he introduced exhaust steam forcing the draught. The "yellow-hot" soot particles emit loads of energy by radiation, which is absorbed by the tubes and transferred to the water. Similarly in the firebox.
Your burner in contrast, does not radiate much heat with the end plate, so all the heat from hot gases must be transferred by conduction from the gas to metal surfaces. A much less efficient heat flow method.
The locomotive firebox has long been known to be very effective for heat flow to the metal and water from the radiant heat from the fire.
Green Twin has taught me that it is (mostly) the radiant heat from firebrick heated by flames that heats the crucible in his furnaces.
Just a thought anyway...
K2
 
Green Twin has taught me that it is (mostly) the radiant heat from firebrick heated by flames that heats the crucible in his furnaces.
That is what I have heard, an it seems to make sense.

Many furnace lids swing open horizontally, and this prevents the hot lid interior from facing you.

A very hot radiant surface does transmit a lot of energy via IR (infrared).

My daughter was filming one of my pours, and she had a black bodied camera, and was 10 feet away when I opened the furnace.
The camera body started to overheat and smelled like melting plastic.

.
 
Back to the plot:
What design of boiler are you looking at? -A wet boiler or Flash boiler? In your first post you mentioned a water tube boiler, but later posted some info on Flash tube boilers?
I'd love to see what you are planning for this large burner.
K2

I'm not the artist I'ld like to be, and sadly, sketching a 3-D drawing that makes the design of my boiler layout understandable is beyond my skill level. At the moment, the best (only) drawing I have is this one:

1661126025168.png


The little green circles represent "water" tubes. The tubes closest to the exhaust gases will act as a super heat section, BUT because I'm not using water as the working fluid, but R123 instead, so I must be careful to not exceed the decomposition temperature of 250 C. The critical temperature of R123 is 184 C at the critical pressure of 532 psi. My goal is to keep the R123 as close to 184 C as possible, which is why I'm using a microcontroller to adjust fuel and air flows into the burner and feed pump pressure of the R123 into the boiler.

I'll be sure to post photos as I go along. :)
 
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Hi T, I like that logic!

Another thought I had... While I realise the end plate is increasing pressure within the burner, hence compressing the flames to higher temperature and more complete combustion, I don't know if removing the plate would affect your boiler, with the large flame released? As long a combustion gases do not impinge on metal in the firebox, the radiant heat transfer is a major advantage of your flames for heat transfer. Radiant heat from "dirty" combustion being drawn up the flue tubes was a major advantage to the performance (steaming rate) of George Stephenson's multi tube boiler when he introduced exhaust steam forcing the draught. The "yellow-hot" soot particles emit loads of energy by radiation, which is absorbed by the tubes and transferred to the water. Similarly in the firebox.

My theory on keeping burning gases inside a combustion chamber for as long as is reasonably possible is: the combustion process is pretty quick, but it isn't instantaneous, it takes time for the several chemical reactions to take place. Once the burning gasses leave the combustion chamber they expand, and immediately cool down, below the temperatures needed to fully burn carbon and CO. Removing the end plate on my burner and allowing the hot gasses to both expand and come in contact with much cooler boiler tubes will not only stop the combustion process within the exhaust gasses but also allow the burning gasses inside the chamber to escape before complete combustion has taken place.

Your burner in contrast, does not radiate much heat with the end plate, so all the heat from hot gases must be transferred by conduction from the gas to metal surfaces.
K2

I'm going to respectfully disagree with the above assertion. The laws of physics tell me that all matter, solids, liquids, and gases, all emit Infra Red radiant energy. I'm absolutely certain the exhaust gasses from my burner, with the plate in place, are emitting large amounts of infra red radiant energy.

I do agree with your example of "dirty" exhaust gases being more efficient at transferring heat into boiler tubes as compared with "clean" exhaust gases. However, I'll live with a little less efficiency if it means I wont cover my boiler tubes with a thick coating of carbon-black.
 
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I agree with the physics of emitting radiation, but not always in the infra-red, which is why an efficient blue flame and similar yellow flame feel different when the human body detects the radiation. Wavelength or frequency makes a big difference I think?
Because you are using freon (whatever) instead of water, with its temperature limitation, I respect your plan for using the hot exhaust gas, as by adding extra air you can effectively cool the exhaust to control temperature . ... I am sure you will have done some heat-flow sums to get a good idea for the heat absorption capacity of all those coils to the gas ?
The only suggestion I can make is that the coils are spaced by approx 1 tube diameter, which is a "convenient" standard used in water tube boilers for a number of reasons, not the least being gas flow.
Otherwise, your burner-boiler design is a bit distant from my expertise.
Just a thought... from the red-hot end plate, where is all that heat going to be collected, as there isn't much boiler where that red-heat is shining? Is the end plate (RH end of drawing), where it looks like the hot vapour is exiting the boiler, heated by the radiant heat from the burner end plate? This may be the superheater you mention?
K2
 

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