Plumbing Parts Engine

[bearcar1]

Truly a fascinating piece of seat of the pants engineering there Chuck. Please do not wear yourself out over this project, save your energies for your guests and family, they are what is important at this time of year. The engine can wait a few more days, although I am anxious to see it fire off for the first time myself, maybe before the end of the year perhaps.(?) Have a great holiday and we will be watching out for any new developments.

BC1
Jim

 

[cfellows]

Thanks, Jim. I did spend another hour and got everything hooked, although probably not in its final form. Put fuel in the tank and spun it up with my cordless drill, but didn't get so much as a burp. I am getting spark to jump to the tip of the plug which means it is firing inside the cylinder. However, it's apparently not getting fuel. This is my first experience with the Ridder's vapor fuel tank so I'm not real sure how to fiddle with it. I'm done with it for tonight, but do have a few things to try when time permits. I need to install a head gasket since I think I'm getting some leak around the head. I also need to check the valves to make sure they are seating properly. And, I need to make sure the intake valve spring is weak enough to let fuel in on the intake stoke.

I don't see any reason why the engine won't ultimately run, although I am a little worried that I don't have a high enough compression ratio. May need to bolt a lump of metal onto the piston to help raise the ratio. Anyway, more later...

Chuck

 

[NickG]

Nice work Chuck and keep at it. I know how frustrating these non-runners can be! I think you'll be there once your fuel issue is sorted though. Can you see / hear the intake valve lifting?

Nick

 

[cfellows]

I did a little more work last night. I extended the air intake on the Ridders Vapor fuel tank so the bottom is submerged in the fuel. When I turn the engine over, it is bubbling, so I know the intake valve is opening and at least some fuel and air is getting into the cylinder. I'm not at all familiar with the dynamics of the Ridder vapor fuel tank, so I've no way to tell how much fuel it's getting.

I'm pretty sure I'm getting spark, because I can get the spark to jump from the end of the wire to the tip of the plug pretty consistently. I'm really surprised that the engine is not firing at all, absolutely nothing. I wonder if the spark is just not hot enough?

Hmmmm, very puzzling.

Chuck

 

[Metal Butcher]

Hi Chuck. Good to see your projects progress and posts.

Could it be low compression? Is your plug getting wet? This is probably obvious stuff, but I thought it worth a mention.

-MB

 

[cfellows]

Hi Chuck. Good to see your projects progress and posts.

Could it be low compression? Is your plug getting wet? This is probably obvious stuff, but I thought it worth a mention.

-MB

Thanks for the suggestions, MB. No sign of the plug getting wet, but don't know if the Ridder vapor fuel tank will ever get that much fuel into the cylinder. I'm working on the compression angle right now.

Chuck

 

[cfellows]

Not quite sure how to figure the compression ratio on this thing. Here's a schematic of the cylinder, head, piston, and "manifold". Volumes are shown:

The swept volume is .637 cu in. The remaining or unswept volume is .276 cu in. The total volume is .913 cu in. The ratio of unswept volume to total volume is 3.31:1. Is that the compression ratio?

Chuck

 

[Metal Butcher]

Not quite sure how to figure the compression ratio on this thing. Here's a schematic of the cylinder, head, piston, and "manifold". Volumes are shown:



The swept volume is .637 cu in. The remaining or unswept volume is .276 cu in. The total volume is .913 cu in. The ratio of unswept volume to total volume is 3.31:1. Is that the compression ratio?

Chuck

Could be. You can solve the problem by replacing the piston with a big dome if clearance will allow for it. Again probably pretty obvious, but worth a try?

 

[vlmarshall]

The swept volume is .637 cu in. The remaining or unswept volume is .276 cu in. The total volume is .913 cu in. The ratio of unswept volume to total volume is 3.31:1. Is that the compression ratio?

Yes!

 

[cfellows]

If I need to increase the compression ratio, could make the piston longer by .138". That would take it to the top of the cylinder at TDC. I could, as MB suggested, also either put a dome or a top hat on the piston so it reached up into the void in the head.

However, I don't really think compression ratio is the issue. Non compression engines fire just fine, and this engine is not firing at all. I'm either not getting enough fuel, or the spark isn't hot enough. Or, possibly, the fuel mixture is being drawn down into the cylinder on intake and doesn't get pushed all the way back up to the spark plug gap on the compression stroke. The latter seems like kind of a reach, however.

I would fabricate a normal carb system, but that would be a lot of work. Maybe I could adapt one of the model engine carbs I have in my parts drawer. If push comes to shove, I can convert the ignition over to points & coil. I have both.

Chuck

 

[Tom T]

Hi Chuck Usually when I have trouble wih one of my engines it's because I have a compresion leak rings or valves but I always seem to look at fuel and spark first.

I think your compression ratio is ok. I have a modle reed engine that I run with out piston rings. But to get it to run I have to heat the cyl. up with a propane torch. You might try that. Also my non compression engine won"t run on liquid fuel I use LPG.

Stay at it you will get it. Be sure and post a video of it running if you can. Have a Merry Christmas Tom

 

[NickG]

Chuck,

Couple of points that may or may not help but my thoughts -

I personally think your compression ratio is low. Jan normally aims for about 5 - 6:1 and he designed the vapour carb / tank. So we know that's what it works with. But it seems a few people are saying you don't need it that high.

By increasing the length of piston you are only increasing the ratio from 3.31 to 3.96.

The 2nd thing is the ignition system. Jan has used the piezo method a couple of times, but more often than not when reading his build logs, there tends not to be enough energy in the spark with a piezo. They take quite a bit of power to drive too, so a tim 6 hall effect circuit or similar may be better. Or if you can get some sort of motorbike coil and contact breaker.

Just a couple of thoughts or possible avenues to go down.

Nick

 

[cfellows]

I have a video here which demonstrates that my Jan Ridder's vapor fuel tank, which I built for the Henry Ford plumbing parts engine, works as advertised. I disconnected the fuel tank and removed the carburetor from my hit n miss engine. Then I hooked up the Jan Ridders tank with a polyurethane tube that I just pressed into the cylinder head where I had removed the carb. It started on the first pull and never missed a lick. See the results for yourself:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaorOHJTLrY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaorOHJTLrY[/ame]

I do think I have found the real problem the plumbing parts engine isn't running. I'll elaborate in a subsequent post.

Chuck

 

[cfellows]

As you can see in the video in the previous post, I extended the air inlet tube in the Ridders vapor fuel tank so I could see if my plumbing parts engine was drawing fuel from the tank. And it was. However the engine was pushing air back out into the fuel tank as witnessed by the small geyser of fuel that spurted out of the filler cap on each compression stroke.

So, I surmised, I must have a leaky inlet valve seat. Today, I lapped the valve against the seat and tried it again. Same thing, still getting air out the inlet pipe. Even when I used my fingers to hold the inlet valve closed made no difference. So, now, I've decided the air is leaking around the threads on the screwed in pipe plug which serves as the valve guide/seat. Gonna have to come up with a different design for the inlet and exhaust valve housing.

Chuck

 

[NickG]

Nice trouble shooting Chuck. Sounds like you've got to the root cause, fingers crossed. The vapour carb seems to work a treat, good idea checking it out on your other engine, which is superb by the way.

Nick

 

[gbritnell]

Hi Chuck, boy you've got that engine running great. I have the drawings for Jan's tank but have never built one. One of these days.
George

 

[cfellows]

Thanks, Nick, George. I gotta say it's all thumbs up for the Ridders fuel tank. No needle valve, no flooding, no choking... as Nick says, works a treat. I'm now in the process of replacing the fuel tank on my Hit n Miss engine with a Ridders design.

Chuck

 

[Deanofid]

That fuel tank vapor setup works great, Chuck. Very good way to prove one part, and point the finger at another, too.
By the way, your hit 'n miss runs wonderfully well!
I know you'll get this figured out. Count me among the cheering section.

Dean

 

[Longboy]

As you can see in the video in the previous post, I extended the air inlet tube in the Ridders vapor fuel tank so I could see if my plumbing parts engine was drawing fuel from the tank. And it was. However the engine was pushing air back out into the fuel tank as witnessed by the small geyser of fuel that spurted out of the filler cap on each compression stroke.

So, I surmised, I must have a leaky inlet valve seat. Today, I lapped the valve against the seat and tried it again. Same thing, still getting air out the inlet pipe. Even when I used my fingers to hold the inlet valve closed made no difference. So, now, I've decided the air is leaking around the threads on the screwed in pipe plug which serves as the valve guide/seat. Gonna have to come up with a different design for the inlet and exhaust valve housing.

Chuck

.........I'm reading your text here Chuck. I'm not sure that I got what you are describing here. My question is if that's a "air inlet tube" and you extended it below the fuel surface, are those bubbles coming back thru the fuel line or the fuel tank vent? If the fuel line, it may be drawing air through the valve guide/stem clearance. Give the guide a shot of WD40 when turning over engine and note any change in the bubbling.. ........If it is really not supposed to burp up back to the fuel tank I would try a one way vacuum valve in the fuel line. Found under the hood (or auto supply store) of any car from the '80's as part of their emissions control system and also washer fluid line. I'm not familiar with Jans vapor delivery..............but I like the idea as proven in your video! Dave.

 

[NickG]

Longboy,

what Chuck said was it is pushing air back on the compression stroke which points towards a leaky inlet valve, but since the valve is shut at that point it's not the stem, and chuck has lapped the valve and seat so they are making a good seal. He has narrowed it down to the interface between the valve seat and housing.

Good idea about the non return valve though. Jan's vapour fuel tank is quite an ingenious idea and information can be found here: http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/...damp_carburateur/dampcarburateur_frameset.htm

Sounds good, the only thing I wonder if anybody has tried it with a throttle butterfly?

Nick