Time to buy a lathe and mill.

[Rob_B]

I have been looking around here for some time now and I'm ready to get my first lathe and mill.

They will be used for model engines ofcource and maybe some other small parts and tool mods.
I have been reading many posts here and on the internet and looked at what I can buy here.

At the moment I think I will get a Sieg SC2 350 and a SX2P.

The options on lathes is limited, so I feel that the SC2 is the right lathe for me.

The choice between mills is much bigger with plenty of different versions.
The SX2P looks like the most interesting version for me with the brushless motor, belt drive, solid column, bigger table and more travel on all axis.

Would I be better of with the solid column or is the tilting column a useful option after all?

One thing I see on the specs of the Sieg mills is "throat" The X2 and SX2 all have a throat of 167 mm. What is the throat of a mill?

One of the reasons to go for the Sieg machines is because I will use them in the attic. I have plenty of room there, but limited acces to get big things up there. So the machines can't be to large or heavy.

Does anyone have any reason not to buy these or know things I may have forgotten or need to look for?
I know it all depends on what I want to use it for and what I may expect from the machines. But as these are my first lathe and mill I ask anyway.

Thanks.

Rob.

 

[Wizard69]

I have some suggestions or maybe better comments for you to consider.
1. Buy enough machine! The struggle to get them in place is a one time event, don't let that stop you from getting a machine of suitable size.
2. Figuring out what is a suitable size for your interests isn't easy. So consider carefully where your interests lay.
3. If buying both machines at once forces you to compromise on both machines then don't do it. A huge amount of machining can be done on a lathe to get you started.
4. The cost of the machine is about half the expense of bringing it up to usable standards. Tooling will cost you money.

I have been looking around here for some time now and I'm ready to get my first lathe and mill.

They will be used for model engines ofcource and maybe some other small parts and tool mods.

Think carefully here about what you are interested in. Model engines for example come in a huge array of designs and sizes.

I have been reading many posts here and on the internet and looked at what I can buy here.

At the moment I think I will get a Sieg SC2 350 and a SX2P.

Unfortunately I don't know what that lathe is.

The options on lathes is limited, so I feel that the SC2 is the right lathe for me.

I'm not sure why you are saying this, there are a lot of lathe options out there. The worst part about a lathe is that most of the mass is in one part thus moving it around is often a major adventure.

The choice between mills is much bigger with plenty of different versions.
The SX2P looks like the most interesting version for me with the brushless motor, belt drive, solid column, bigger table and more travel on all axis.

Would I be better of with the solid column or is the tilting column a useful option after all?

In my opinion the tilting column on the Machines with it is a joke. The hinge is so flimsy the machine can barely drill large diameter holes in steel without very noticeable column deflection. If you go SX2 make sure it is the improved "solid" column model.

One thing I see on the specs of the Sieg mills is "throat" The X2 and SX2 all have a throat of 167 mm. What is the throat of a mill?

One of the reasons to go for the Sieg machines is because I will use them in the attic. I have plenty of room there, but limited acces to get big things up there. So the machines can't be to large or heavy.

Consider this, mills can easily be broken down into parts easy to handle. Since a tear down and cleaning are recommended this can be part of your start up procedure. I would not dismiss a larger mill due to the effort to move it in place. A lathe is a different story, but again you should only need to do this once.

Does anyone have any reason not to buy these or know things I may have forgotten or need to look for?

Number one would be to check the load rating of the attic floor, especially if this is an older house. It probably isn't a problem but some houses have far better construction than others.

Tooling I mentioned above, if you have nothing it will be a big expense.

Machine tools spit out a lot of chips and fluids which can get all over. Chips you sweep up, fluids though can seep into place you don't want it to go. So you may need enclosures or other swarf control measures.

Make sure you have suitable power in the attic. Make sure power and lighting are on separate circuits.

Speaking of lighting nothing proves the importance of good lighting like trying to operate a machine tool or do layout work. If lighting is marginal in the attic plan on remediation of some sort.

I know it all depends on what I want to use it for and what I may expect from the machines. But as these are my first lathe and mill I ask anyway.

Thanks.

Rob.

If you don't have a strong interest in any one type of engine or model size assume your interests will change over time. This leads to a suggestion that you lean towards larger machines. Speaking of machines you will need to buy or make machines beyond the mill and lathe. A grinder is a requirement to start and a 1" or so belt grinder serves its own purpose. These can be DIY projects that would put your lathe to use. There are a bunch of other things needed in the shop that people normally make. In the end you may spend a couple of months just making things.


By the way asking is always a good thing. The problem is answering isn't always easy.

 

[Omnimill]

Wizard has it covered. The Lathe looks ok but I would go for something a bit more solid for the Mill. As said, tilting columns are a bad idea! The SX3 may be a better bet if you can run to it.

http://www.siegind.com/products_det...=comp-FrontProducts_list01-1325833166395.html

 

[Rob_B]

I have some suggestions or maybe better comments for you to consider.
1. Buy enough machine! The struggle to get them in place is a one time event, don't let that stop you from getting a machine of suitable size.
2. Figuring out what is a suitable size for your interests isn't easy. So consider carefully where your interests lay.
3. If buying both machines at once forces you to compromise on both machines then don't do it. A huge amount of machining can be done on a lathe to get you started.
4. The cost of the machine is about half the expense of bringing it up to usable standards. Tooling will cost you money.



Think carefully here about what you are interested in. Model engines for example come in a huge array of designs and sizes.

Unfortunately I don't know what that lathe is.

The SC2 is an upgrade of the C2 Mini Lathe. It has, just like the SX2 mill, a brushless motor and less gears to get the same speed an more power. And there is a

version with 350 mm instead of 300 mm between centers.
http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_lathe/reviews/sieg_sc2/sc2.htm

I'm not sure why you are saying this, there are a lot of lathe options out there. The worst part about a lathe is that most of the mass is in one part thus moving it around is often a major adventure.

That maybe have come out wrong.
What I mean is that in the size, weight and price class that I'm looking at at the moment there are just a few. When I want to go one step up, it is a big step in price without getting a whole lot more.

In my opinion the tilting column on the Machines with it is a joke. The hinge is so flimsy the machine can barely drill large diameter holes in steel without very noticeable column deflection. If you go SX2 make sure it is the improved "solid" column model.

That is what I thought and why I like the SX2P. That one has the fixed column.

Consider this, mills can easily be broken down into parts easy to handle. Since a tear down and cleaning are recommended this can be part of your start up procedure. I would not dismiss a larger mill due to the effort to move it in place. A lathe is a different story, but again you should only need to do this once.

I had figured that already. As I have to break them down to clean, I can do that downstairs and take it up in parts.

Number one would be to check the load rating of the attic floor, especially if this is an older house. It probably isn't a problem but some houses have far better construction than others.

All floors are reinforced concrete, so no problems there.

Tooling I mentioned above, if you have nothing it will be a big expense.

Yeah, I have noticed that. That is also a reason to not go over the top with the machines.

Machine tools spit out a lot of chips and fluids which can get all over. Chips you sweep up, fluids though can seep into place you don't want it to go. So you may need enclosures or other swarf control measures.

I have seen that in my friends shop. That is why I want them in the attic. There is plenty of space there to make a seperate room.

Make sure you have suitable power in the attic. Make sure power and lighting are on separate circuits.

Speaking of lighting nothing proves the importance of good lighting like trying to operate a machine tool or do layout work. If lighting is marginal in the attic plan

on remediation of some sort.

Power is available, but lighting has to be improved.

If you don't have a strong interest in any one type of engine or model size assume your interests will change over time. This leads to a suggestion that you lean towards larger machines.

I really like the small IC engines. Like the tiny 4 inline and the small V8's
I'm not going to build 1/2 scale engines.

Speaking of machines you will need to buy or make machines beyond the mill and lathe. A grinder is a requirement to start and a 1" or so belt grinder serves its own purpose. These can be DIY projects that would put your lathe to use. There are a bunch of other things needed in the shop that people normally make. In the end you may spend a couple of months just making things.

I have some of those tools already, other I will have to get/make too.

By the way asking is always a good thing. The problem is answering isn't always easy.

You did a good job. Thanks for that. It gave me a few things to think about.

 

[Rob_B]

Wizard has it covered. The Lathe looks ok but I would go for something a bit more solid for the Mill. As said, tilting columns are a bad idea! The SX3 may be a better bet if you can run to it.

http://www.siegind.com/products_det...=comp-FrontProducts_list01-1325833166395.html

The SX2P doesn't have the tilting column, but a fixed one.
Wouldn't that make it rigid enough?

 

[Omnimill]

The SX2P doesn't have the tilting column, but a fixed one.
Wouldn't that make it rigid enough?

It would be more rigid than the tilting version. I was just trying to make the point that the bigger the better when it comes to milling machines, notwithstanding what you can afford or have space for!

 

[Sshire]

Not to jump ahead to your second mill, but...
My first mill was a BF20 (same as Grizzly G0704 and many others). Luckily, (for me) the spindle was R8. While I had the BF20, I gradually added tooling.
When I moved on to my current mill (Bridgeport) all of my tooling fit. Collets, chucks, face mill, etc, etc.
That was a huge savings.
Just a thought.

 

[Wizard69]

The SC2 is an upgrade of the C2 Mini Lathe. It has, just like the SX2 mill, a brushless motor and less gears to get the same speed an more power. And there is a

You need to be careful here on these small machines, with their small motors, getting the right power at low speed is a problem. Gears or belt reductions are not a bad thing in this regard. This is especially the case on a lathe as there are many instance where running at very low spindle speeds is advised.

version with 350 mm instead of 300 mm between centers.
http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_lathe/reviews/sieg_sc2/sc2.htm


That maybe have come out wrong.
What I mean is that in the size, weight and price class that I'm looking at at the moment there are just a few. When I want to go one step up, it is a big step in price without getting a whole lot more.

Usually the weight goes up real fast too!

The problem I see is the distance between centers can be a big problem on these smaller lathes. By the time you mount a chuck, mount the work piece in the chuck and then the tooling on the cross slide you may run out of space. So you need to consider real carefully if the lathe is "big enough". On the flip side swing is important too so you need to ask yourself If the lathe will be able to safely chuck the parts you wish to work on.

You can probably get buy with a smallish lathe considering your interests mentioned earlier. I'm just not sure you will have enough distance between centers for the stuff you mentioned earlier. For example let's say that V-8 has a 25 mm bore, maybe 35 mm between centers for each bore. Given that you could see that a minimal came shaft length would be 140mm but most likely longer to fix gears and such. A cranks shaft will easily be longer than that so let's say 240mm. These are just wild numbers here trying to make a point.

In any event you should see that the lathes you have in mind are a little short. If you want to use a live center you might have issues. So if V-8s are a big interest you really should look into the plans associated with the models you are interested in and find out just how much distance between centers you need. While you are at it determine the swing required over the cross slide to turn a crankshaft. You need to make yourself comfortable with the idea that the lathe is big enough.

That is what I thought and why I like the SX2P. That one has the fixed column.

It is still a smallish mill. It is certainly good enough for many, but you will also find comments by people wishing they went a bit bigger.

I had figured that already. As I have to break them down to clean, I can do that downstairs and take it up in parts.


All floors are reinforced concrete, so no problems there.

A concrete floor in the attic? That must be some house. Even so concrete floors have a load rating as such it is worth checking out.

Yeah, I have noticed that. That is also a reason to not go over the top with the machines.

Yes it is an issue of finding balance. In my case I simply have put off acquiring tools until funds can be built up. That and I keep an eye on auctions.

I have seen that in my friends shop. That is why I want them in the attic. There is plenty of space there to make a seperate room.


Power is available, but lighting has to be improved.

I mentioned that because my shop is in the cellar and man it was dark down there with 4 60 watt bulbs. It cost a bit of money but I put in several T8 light fixtures and then wasn't happy with that and did half of it all over again adding more fixtures. Even then I still have some machines with their own lamp fixtures. This isn't a trivial expense so planning makes sense.

I really like the small IC engines. Like the tiny 4 inline and the small V8's
I'm not going to build 1/2 scale engines.

If you want to go the V8 route my feeling right at the moment is that you would want a bigger mill than an SX2. Even a table that is a few inches larger will make setup of larger parts far easier. Not to be unmentioned but you will likely have to make some fixtures.

I have some of those tools already, other I will have to get/make too.

It does add to cost even if you DIY.

You did a good job. Thanks for that. It gave me a few things to think about.

 

[Till]

You have disassemble these machines prior to use, because there's casting sand and grinding dust residue in the headstock, in the gearbox, under the carriage and in the lubrication grooves of the ways.


So weight isn't a problem, it'll be in handy parts. You'll have to buy some measuring equipment anyway. Same with learning how to set up the machine correctly and how to use (low price?) measuring equipment.


Smaller machine = cheaper machine = smaller margin = lower quality.
When really close to the edge, there are really stupid decisions to be made regarding engineering and quality of the product, because you urgently have to cut costs in the 1/100 cent range.


I'd buy the biggest machine I could handle in parts.

 

[Rob_B]

Thanks all. Lots of info to think about.

Looking at the real engine size and deviding by 4, adding chuck thinkness, live center and some extra room to set it up on the lathe, the 350 mm between centers may be on the low side.

And I thought I had figured it out by now.

 

[mikbul]

I have been looking around here for some time now and I'm ready to get my first lathe and mill.

They will be used for model engines ofcource and maybe some other small parts and tool mods.
I have been reading many posts here and on the internet and looked at what I can buy here.

At the moment I think I will get a Sieg SC2 350 and a SX2P.

The options on lathes is limited, so I feel that the SC2 is the right lathe for me.

The choice between mills is much bigger with plenty of different versions.
The SX2P looks like the most interesting version for me with the brushless motor, belt drive, solid column, bigger table and more travel on all axis.

Would I be better of with the solid column or is the tilting column a useful option after all?

One thing I see on the specs of the Sieg mills is "throat" The X2 and SX2 all have a throat of 167 mm. What is the throat of a mill?

One of the reasons to go for the Sieg machines is because I will use them in the attic. I have plenty of room there, but limited acces to get big things up there. So the machines can't be to large or heavy.

Does anyone have any reason not to buy these or know things I may have forgotten or need to look for?
I know it all depends on what I want to use it for and what I may expect from the machines. But as these are my first lathe and mill I ask anyway.

Thanks.

Rob.

Have you looked at Little Machine Shops version of the SEIG mill with the solid column, they also have a mini mill. Also I had a Micromark 7X16 version of the Seig lathe and it was a great deal. Ships in two boxes by UPS to your door, less cosmoline to clean, true inch dials, cam lock tailstock, 500 watt brushless motor.

 

[mikbul]

Forgot to mention, with the micromark 7X16 I purchased the tools from Little Machine Shop. The premium package has everything in it, four 3/8' -1/2" tool holders, three indexable tools, (left, right, threading) quick change tool post in OXA size, boring bar, parting tool and holder, 1/2" drill chuck and arbor, four center drills, and extra carbide insert. I'm still using that OXA tool post on my South Bend SB1001. I believe the price was $279.00.

 

[Teus]

Rob,

Did you have a look at "Marktplaats.nl"

There are some very nice Emco 8 and 5 offered like this one: http://link.marktplaats.nl/761139526

Or this one: http://link.marktplaats.nl/761272315

Or this one: http://link.marktplaats.nl/758905885

And a lot more if you do a search on Draaibank at Marktplaats

 

[Rob_B]

Thanks for the replies.
I haven't decided what to get yet. It is a new hobby, so maybe I will start small and work my way up if I really like it.
Or start with some bigger machines (some thing like a 8.5x16 lathe and bf20 mill)

@Mikbul. Those are close to what I wanted to get from Sieg. I have a small problem with the Littlemachineshop. I'm in Europe and they don't ship outside the US and Canada. Even if they did, shipping and taxes would make it more expensive that getting some thing similar over here.

@Teus. I started at Marktplaats. But with the little I know about these machines, I'm not sure if I want to get some thing used.

But I have more to think about again.

 

[lohring]

Don't forget to consider used machines. They often cost less than new small lathes and mills, come with tooling, and are much more capable. Larger used machines cost more to move in and set up, but if you have the room they are worth it. A 10 to 14 inch swing lathe and Bridgeport size mill are what I'm talking about. As another poster pointed out, this Monarch lathe is much more capable for the price than any new small machine.

Lohring Miller

 

[Bob_P]

Hi Rob
I have a SC4 lathe and an SX2 mill with a larger table and fixed column. Had these for a couple of years plus now. Really pleased with both of these and have made several mods to the mill, gas spring, DROs and a power feed. If I had to work with the same budget and space constraints I would buy the same again if that's any recommendation. I would however advise to consider what you plan to build with them. I planned to build small engines and models, but interests changed/developed and I would have been really restricted if I had bought a smaller lathe.
Regards happy new year to you.
Bob..

 

[Walltoddj]

All the reply's I see are great get the biggest you can afford because as most you will out grow it and wish you had gotten a big machine. I learned on a 6 x 24 mill and a 36" x 60" lathe that had a flat belt and a truck trany to change gears but it was great way to learn. Now I've a 9"x42", 9"x49" Bridgeport, a Reid 6"x 12" Surface grinder, a Brown & Sharpe 6"x18" full hyd, a DoAll 13"x60" Lathe and a Harbor Freight 7"x10" Mini Lathe. I still find it hard to fit some jobs on those machines but it's a lot easier to do most of what I like to on them. Good luck and I hope you can find what suits you and your needs.

 

[Rob_B]

Hi Rob
I have a SC4 lathe ..............I planned to build small engines and models, but interests changed/developed and I would have been really restricted if I had bought a smaller lathe.

Bob, what version of the SC4 do you own? I see there are two versions, 410 mm and 510 mm.

 

[bazmak]

Hi,i would recommend sieg sc3 (micromark 7x16) read my thread bazmak
I have gone in great detail on pros and cons and lots of Mods
I have really enjoyed owning this lathe.Regards Bazmak

 

[Bob_P]

Rob
Mine is the 410
Bob..