New Guy from Wis

[GreenTwin]

A soft soldered hobby boiler is safe IF the water does not get low in it.
I think thousands of hobby boilers have been sold worldwide for probably 100 years, and used safely.

That being said, as I mentioned, I let my brother's Wilesco boiler get low on water, and there was no water gauge, and the steam whistle joint failed and almost blinded me.
Had the end cap failed, it could have been fatal.

So I am hesitant to say that soft-soldered hobby boilers are safe under all conditions, since just a few minutes of not paying attention can make they extremely unsafe.

There should be a larger margin of safety on a soft soldered model boiler, such as Jason mentioned, with riveted joints or something that would leak first without a catastrophic failure.

.

 

[Richard Hed]

"How to make a mountain out of a molehill." ask K2 aka Steamchick

#1 OP Does not live in the uk!
#2 OP Did not state or give any hint he was going to use boiler in the uk!
#3 uk laws are not binding here in the USA!
#4 Here in the USA each state has a design code or regulations that is adopted within a Jurisdiction or municipality that it lies in. Not the uk or ASME.
#5 Here in the USA A code tells you what you need to do, and a standard tells you how to do it.
#6 A state boiler inspector can only legally enforce what the code law says and that law may be more stringent or less stringent than the ASME.
#7 Is ASME a code or standard?
ASME is the leading international developer of codes and standards, here after referred to as standards, associated with the art, science, and practice of mechanical engineering. ASME cannot force any manufacturer, inspector, or installer to follow ASME standards. Their use is voluntary. Standards become mandatory when they have been incorporated into a business contract or incorporated into regulations by local or state authorities who have jurisdiction over.
Bottom line When in doubt contact your local building code department not someone who is pretentious !!!
In most cases, state and local governments here in the USA have exemption for model steam boilers under a given size.
**** OP please do not be put off by someone with a doctorate degree in ? ****
We learn by asking ,receiving a reply in the simplest way one can, not in a ^confusion book like way to answer the OP simple question
"I am looking for some guidelines and plans for a small model steam boiler for the Wig Wag."

I may be wrong and if I am, I stand corrected and apologize ( Administrator If I am wrong please remove this post and inform me) but I do not think the op request for "some guidelines" means a course in uk and or asme standards and specifications.
But a simple guide on how and where to start in this fine HOBBY and not how to be scared away with non existence codes in the USA.

Quote from Dan Rowe on Model Engine Maker Forum (Apr 17, 2019) :
"As far as I know the only countries to have a Model Boiler Code is the UK and Australia.
I actually hope that some one can prove that statement wrong." (As far as I know to this date no one has)
"In the United States where I live the regulation of most types of boilers is at the State level. This means that there are 51 codes one for each State and one for the US Capitol."

Reply from PM Research about their 4% silver-tin alloy solder and flux used with their boilers.

View attachment 153785

`Well you see, that's where I differ with you--we are 50 countries and a city. So ther UK, Austrailia and the 50 countries in the USofA all have codes. I thimpfks there was once a war foght over that once.

 

[wce4]

`Well you see, that's where I differ with you--we are 50 countries and a city. So ther UK, Austrailia and the 50 countries in the USofA all have codes. I thimpfks there was once a war foght over that once.

I see your point and somewhat agree.

 

[wce4]

There should be a larger margin of safety on a soft soldered model boiler, such as Jason mentioned, with riveted joints or something that would leak first without a catastrophic failure.

Agree 100% riveted joints copper stays and the like.

 

[JLaning427]

"How to make a mountain out of a molehill." ask K2 aka Steamchick

#1 OP Does not live in the uk!
#2 OP Did not state or give any hint he was going to use boiler in the uk!
#3 uk laws are not binding here in the USA!
#4 Here in the USA each state has a design code or regulations that is adopted within a Jurisdiction or municipality that it lies in. Not the uk or ASME.
#5 Here in the USA A code tells you what you need to do, and a standard tells you how to do it.
#6 A state boiler inspector can only legally enforce what the code law says and that law may be more stringent or less stringent than the ASME.
#7 Is ASME a code or standard?
ASME is the leading international developer of codes and standards, here after referred to as standards, associated with the art, science, and practice of mechanical engineering. ASME cannot force any manufacturer, inspector, or installer to follow ASME standards. Their use is voluntary. Standards become mandatory when they have been incorporated into a business contract or incorporated into regulations by local or state authorities who have jurisdiction over.
Bottom line When in doubt contact your local building code department not someone who is pretentious !!!
In most cases, state and local governments here in the USA have exemption for model steam boilers under a given size.
**** OP please do not be put off by someone with a doctorate degree in ? ****
We learn by asking ,receiving a reply in the simplest way one can, not in a ^confusion book like way to answer the OP simple question
"I am looking for some guidelines and plans for a small model steam boiler for the Wig Wag."

I may be wrong and if I am, I stand corrected and apologize ( Administrator If I am wrong please remove this post and inform me) but I do not think the op request for "some guidelines" means a course in uk and or asme standards and specifications.
But a simple guide on how and where to start in this fine HOBBY and not how to be scared away with non existence codes in the USA.

Quote from Dan Rowe on Model Engine Maker Forum (Apr 17, 2019) :
"As far as I know the only countries to have a Model Boiler Code is the UK and Australia.
I actually hope that some one can prove that statement wrong." (As far as I know to this date no one has)
"In the United States where I live the regulation of most types of boilers is at the State level. This means that there are 51 codes one for each State and one for the US Capitol."

Reply from PM Research about their 4% silver-tin alloy solder and flux used with their boilers.

View attachment 153785

WCE4:

I don't know you from Adam, and I don't know what your beef or feud with Steamchick is, but your post comes across as you being a colossal @ssh@t. Why the venom? Because that's how it reads to an outsider (me). I only come here occasionally, inspired by Terry's V12 build.

You both made valid points. For example, WCE4, you brought up that there is no national code here in the states. There are 51 sets of state (and district and commonwealth) rules to play by (although I suspect some regulations might be shared among states, kind of like SEMA worded legislation gets passed in multiple states for hot rods and the like).

TO bug_hunter: Welcome to the forum.

My advice is to make sure that whatever you build complies with Wisconsin's rules (at a minimum, and any other states' rules that you might want to show the thing at) and is as safe as you can make it. Ultimately, nobody wants to get themselves (or a family member) hurt, so erring on the conservative side is appropriate.

Regardless of whether WCE4 has been running (2) different PM Research for 20 years or 200 years, if you fail to play by your states' rules, you open youself up to both legal liability and your insurance company having a convenient "out" of paying a claim if something ever goes sideways. Both of those would be "less than desirable" outcomes.

Play safe and be nice out there!


J

 

[GreenTwin]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do understand the situation.

Someone posts about model boilers.

Someone else deep dives into information that applies to another country, or is just heresay.

An avalanche of unrelated (but often interesting) information gets posted.

The thread floods with information that is not applicable or relevant.
Rince, repeat, year after year.

So, not a short term thing, but something that has gone on since I have been here.

I read all information, and just ignore what is not applicable.

But I have seen more than a few folks who will get in someone's face about boilers, and how it has to be, in a most emphatic way.
The only problem is that often it is not applicable to what the original poster is posting about, and not applicable to the country/region where the poster is located.

I am a firm believe in boiler safety.

The problem is that some use their boiler knowledge like a sledge hammer on others, whether it is applicable to the situation or not.
This is not limited to any one individual; it has happened multiple times here, with multiple people involved.

Like I mentioned, boiler topics have always been some of the most contentious topics I have ever seen on any forum.
It should not be a contentious subject though.
State your opinions, and move on to some other topic.
Err on the side of safety always.

.

 

[wce4]

WCE4:

I don't know you from Adam, and I don't know what your beef or feud with Steamchick is, but your post comes across as you being a colossal @ssh@t. Why the venom? Because that's how it reads to an outsider (me). I only come here occasionally, inspired by Terry's V12 build.

You both made valid points. For example, WCE4, you brought up that there is no national code here in the states. There are 51 sets of state (and district and commonwealth) rules to play by (although I suspect some regulations might be shared among states, kind of like SEMA worded legislation gets passed in multiple states for hot rods and the like).

TO bug_hunter: Welcome to the forum.

My advice is to make sure that whatever you build complies with Wisconsin's rules (at a minimum, and any other states' rules that you might want to show the thing at) and is as safe as you can make it. Ultimately, nobody wants to get themselves (or a family member) hurt, so erring on the conservative side is appropriate.

Regardless of whether WCE4 has been running (2) different PM Research for 20 years or 200 years, if you fail to play by your states' rules, you open youself up to both legal liability and your insurance company having a convenient "out" of paying a claim if something ever goes sideways. Both of those would be "less than desirable" outcomes.

Play safe and be nice out there!


J

May be one should read all replies and comprehend before one post, as others had .
Have a good day.

 

[Steamchick]

I can only apologise - again for starting this by my "making a mountain out of a molehill" of how I write about this stuff...
Can we bring the "banter" to an end please?
Many simple (direct) questions are not answered, just what seems like "politicians arguing about the discussion"??
Lots of stuff suggesting I am wasting time by writing here, so I'll stop.
K2

 

[awake]

The unfortunate thing about forums is that sometimes one can "hear" something the wrong way. I have over-reacted (or maybe "mis-reacted") a time or two, and the anger that I felt at the time made it hard not to keep doubling down on the reaction. After all, my first reaction might be correct, and there really was malicious intent ... but I also realized, after the fact, that I might just possibly have misread the situation. Again, the "flat" medium of the internet denies us the cues that we would get in a face-to-face conversation.

K2, for what it is worth, I heard you simply providing information out of a desire to help. Sorry that you got stung in the process.

 

[bug_hunter]

Wow, that was some kind of a welcome. Thanks to all for the warm welcome. I appreciate the input, both long and short winded. I appreciate, more than anything, the "facts". I have been on a number of forums in the past (can't seem to lock onto one hobby). It has been my approach/experience to contact a poster direct if a specific question were not answered, or if some specific additional information were needed. Maybe not the approach for the masses, but it is my approach.

As I mentioned previously, once i am ready to move on the boiler design/construction, I will start a new post in the appropriate forum. Then the fun will begin.

Thanks again to all, and I hope everyone has a great weekend!

Greg

 

[wce4]

Wow, that was some kind of a welcome. Thanks to all for the warm welcome. I appreciate the input, both long and short winded. I appreciate, more than anything, the "facts". I have been on a number of forums in the past (can't seem to lock onto one hobby). It has been my approach/experience to contact a poster direct if a specific question were not answered, or if some specific additional information were needed. Maybe not the approach for the masses, but it is my approach.

As I mentioned previously, once i am ready to move on the boiler design/construction, I will start a new post in the appropriate forum. Then the fun will begin.

Thanks again to all, and I hope everyone has a great weekend!

Greg

Looking forward to it. Have a good one.

 

[Steamchick]

First, Welcome Bug hunter! I'm sorry I made a gaff on your first post. I would like to offer help anytime you want to ask about boilers... as I have been enjoying (sometimes struggling with deciding "the right thing".. ) for over 20 years. - My problem is (1) that the Hobby world isn't the same as the Work world (where everything I did was legislated - but that made it simple. Just follow the rules!). And (2) I am a long-winded stupid old whatsit!
Cheers!
K2

 

[Richard Hed]

First, Welcome Bug hunter! I'm sorry I made a gaff on your first post. I would like to offer help anytime you want to ask about boilers... as I have been enjoying (sometimes struggling with deciding "the right thing".. ) for over 20 years. - My problem is (1) that the Hobby world isn't the same as the Work world (where everything I did was legislated - but that made it simple. Just follow the rules!). And (2) I am a long-winded stupid old whatsit!
Cheers!
K2

They have muzzles for dogs that might bite. Maybe you could get two for your hands when you feel the urge to type.

 

[Steamchick]

They shoot mad dogs...

 

[wce4]

First, Welcome Bug hunter! I'm sorry I made a gaff on your first post. I would like to offer help anytime you want to ask about boilers... as I have been enjoying (sometimes struggling with deciding "the right thing".. ) for over 20 years. - My problem is (1) that the Hobby world isn't the same as the Work world (where everything I did was legislated - but that made it simple. Just follow the rules!). And (2) I am a long-winded stupid old whatsit!
Cheers!
K2

You may be old like me but you are far from being stupid.

 

[Richard Hed]

They shoot mad dogs...

LOL, but are YOUR hands MAD HANDz? and would you want to shoot them?

 

[Steamchick]

More than a few have suggested I should be shot...., or put down in other ways...
Let's get back to model engineering.
I spent a day making copper bushes for silver soldering into a boiler for stays to be fitted, as the boiler had been originally made with thin copper ends.... unsuitable = deformed under pressure. Another old boiler wrongly made... My problem is the right fluid when cutting copper... as when drilling, one drill snatched and broke, despite being oiled.... it was cutting freely until then, and I was in the middle of a hand operation, of a hand-over-hand feed, not the change point between hands. Swarf was clearing nicely, it just went click and pressure increased as the drill broke. I guess I should have used something different from 7W viscosity lathe bed oil?
Perhaps relevant experience for Bug Hunter to appetite how discussions develop? Or should I take my queries elsewhere?
K2

 

[Richard Hed]

More than a few have suggested I should be shot...., or put down in other ways...
Let's get back to model engineering.
I spent a day making copper bushes for silver soldering into a boiler for stays to be fitted, as the boiler had been originally made with thin copper ends.... unsuitable = deformed under pressure. Another old boiler wrongly made... My problem is the right fluid when cutting copper... as when drilling, one drill snatched and broke, despite being oiled.... it was cutting freely until then, and I was in the middle of a hand operation, of a hand-over-hand feed, not the change point between hands. Swarf was clearing nicely, it just went click and pressure increased as the drill broke. I guess I should have used something different from 7W viscosity lathe bed oil?
Perhaps relevant experience for Bug Hunter to appetite how discussions develop? Or should I take my queries elsewhere?
K2

NO, no, we are not suggesting you should be shot, just your hands. But in th e case of your tool breaking, I'm sure it is because you failed to MUZZLE your hands like suggested.

 

[Steamchick]

Thanks Richard. But any suggestions for the best fluid to aid drilling in Copper?
K2

 

[Richard Hed]

Thanks Richard. But any suggestions for the best fluid to aid drilling in Copper?
K2

Not a clue. I use copper so seldom that I know nuthing bout it. Have you gotten any hand muzzles?