HELP, my shop is a MESS

[Mike Ginn]

Ouch. That is so easily done and needs to be a warning to everyone. My experience of fires in industry is that heaters of various types are nearly always the cause of fires especially when there is combustible material present. PVC is probably the worst due to the corrosive smoke. Due to my sensitivity on this subject, when I built my latest shop I organised the electrics so that circuits could easily be switched off using 13A fused metal clad switches. So my lathe, compressor, various lathe lights, oil pump and grinders are all switched from a single switch. The 2.5mm wiring for this switch goes directly to the consumer board and a 32A RCD. I do have an electric heater. Its oil filled and never operated at more than 2kW. In this way there is no likelihood of heating up the socket contacts. Note that I am UK based and we use probably the best sockets in the world having a large contact area and good mechanical wire screw clamps.

FYI I fixed 6inch plastic trunking around the top of my shop and then drop cables down to the sockets. There are no cable joints in the trunking and the consumer unit is metal clad.

Thanks for sharing your experience Tony.

Mike

 

[metalmangler]

Note that I am UK based and we use probably the best sockets in the world having a large contact area and good mechanical wire screw clamps.

One thing to remember about UK double sockets is that, although the individual sockets are rated at 13 amps, the double socket unit as a whole is rated at only 20 amps. I l.earned this the hard way (fan heater and oil radiator on same double socket), but fortunately limited the damage to just the sockets and a bit of wall.

 

[Lloyd-ss]

I plugged in a (plastic welding kit) heat iron to do a plastic bumper repair. A few minutes later, after being distracted, I pushed it back on my bench TO MAKE ROOM TO WORK. I then left, forgetting the iron was warming up. It eventually overheated, set the bench on fire, and the rest is history.

Tony, that picture is so sad and I am glad no one was hurt and that it didn't get worse. It will help us all to be more careful in our shops (and everywhere). Thank you for posting that.

Here is a thread I did a while back about a close call I had in my shop. This almost seems trivial compared to yours, but it was headed in that direction. You made a statement about the UK electrical receptacles being among the best in the world. That certainly isn't the case in the US. But ultimately, it is our personal responsibility to pay attention to our environment.

Maybe if I start to think about a neat shop being a safer shop, it will help me with the clutter issue. I too am always pushing stuff out of the way to get some bench top space.
Lloyd

https://www.homemodelenginemachinis...ed-my-shop-down-and-didnt-even-know-it.34477/

 

[Mike Ginn]

Hi Metalmangler (good name!)
You are correct. I think with all electrics there is detail which is overlooked. The capacity of a ring vs a spur is a good example. As a matter of policy I keep the max load to 2kW on each spur. The MCB is rated at 32A. I find that most electrical equipment is less than 2A so I try to balance the loadings. Clearly if the max number of 13A sockets were at max capacity on a ring the cable would fry although the MCB should trip! (BS7671 allows an unlimited number of sockets provided the area that the ring serves is less than 100 x 100m)
For the avoidance of doubt I only have one 13A double socket on each spur or there is a fused switch before several sockets. The total number of sockets is 30. I configured it this way so that I could have a dedicated MCB per spur per circuit.
Mike

 

[Richard Hed]

I feel your pain.
my ADD often finds me working on many projects at the same time.
then there’s the tools I build to work on the project I’m in the middle of.
and I save all the scraps from projects, it can be a problem.
but i digress….

Hey Tug, Wake up, there's a nother guy looking for yhou from Castle Rock. Haven't heard from you for a while, are you ded?

 

[Richard Hed]

Brilliant thread. I now appreciate I am not alone. Heartwarming to appreciate theren are others out there with too much stuff and not enough space.
I recently built a 4ft x 2ft 6in bench to fill a space vacated by a 3ft cube pottery kiln. I used "old" timber and materials I didn't know I had (saved £50!), and now have a new bench and floor full of stuff I didn't know I was storing.
I think the rule is simple.
The bench stores just enough stuff so the available work-space is just too small for whatever project needs that space.
But a recent success. A fluorescent tube LED tube replacement failed after just at a year ... so I stripped it to see what made it work, and fail. The 2 power supplies had both expired. (Lost their smoke?). The LED strips (2 x 4ft long) both worked. So instead of buying a replacement 8ft LED tube (prices have gone up from £15 to £30 in year!) I bought 2 LED power supplies for £13 each, and re-made the LED Lamps. As 8ft tubes and fittings have been withdrawn, I am happy with my 2 x 4ft lamps.
(OK call me a sad old whatsit!).
K2

Ha! In looking for Tug40, I found this thread from last year--all you guys bragging about how messy your shops are. Lets have a contest--anyone with any floor space need not apply.

HOwever, I want to mention that I have three 4 ft LED lamps. I started with flourescent but that really was not bright enough and the flickering made my eyes buggy. So I switched to 500 watt incandescent lamps and they burnt out so quickly (and expensive) that I dropt that as quickly as the LEDs came available. NOt only that but two 500 watt lamps? Talk about a horrible power bill--at least I didn't need HEAT in the winter but summers it's already sweltering in MOses Lake. I've had one of the LED lamps fail out of four. They provide the bright level of light I require.

 

[Steamchick]

AGREE!
I am converting to LED strip lights - half the house already LED. But as I have loads of spare bulbs, and fluorescent tubes, they are in places that rarely need a light (like the loft!). So not economic to replace - yet. But anywhere that gets 10 hours a month has been re-fitted with LED replacements for fluorescent tubes, or new LED strips. The "Plant growing" LED strips appear to be much brighter then regular "household" lamps (so I bought half sized units when the replacement 4 ft units for 4 ft fluorescents were TOO BRIGHT).
I still have a bulb over my lathe though, to ensure I never get strobed!
K2

 

[ddmckee54]

Don't know why I never found this thread until now, but I'm glad I found it. I USED to think that I was the only one with a shop that has almost every flat surface covered in stuff. And not just any old stuff, it's important project stuff. I can usually find a square foot or two to work on without moving too much other stuff. Tools do have special places, usually the last place that I used them. But hey, it's a 12'x12' shop, things can't hide forever when you're looking for them - eventually they're found, along with making several other discoveries. Usually accompanied by - "Now when did I get that?"

 

[Jonathan Coates]

What a relief. I thought I was among a small minority as I always have more stuff than I have places to put it. The day job work stuff gets really annoying as it gets in the way of fun things and takes up my time rather more than I'd like, plus its a lot bigger than my pet projects. The projects are usually making special tools or jigs or whatever making day job things work again, as we can fix stuff that should go in the bin, but would cost thousands for our customers to replace with new. Making replacement parts is fun as well, as I get to play with my toys.

 

[timo_gross]

Ha! In looking for Tug40, I found this thread from last year--all you guys bragging about how messy your shops are. Lets have a contest--anyone with any floor space need not apply.

HOwever, I want to mention that I have three 4 ft LED lamps. I started with flourescent but that really was not bright enough and the flickering made my eyes buggy. So I switched to 500 watt incandescent lamps and they burnt out so quickly (and expensive) that I dropt that as quickly as the LEDs came available. NOt only that but two 500 watt lamps? Talk about a horrible power bill--at least I didn't need HEAT in the winter but summers it's already sweltering in MOses Lake. I've had one of the LED lamps fail out of four. They provide the bright level of light I require.

I am still (not) trying to get the floor clean(ish), and people are nasty, so no photos off my shop

My LED lamps die all the time. I bought cheap 50 W lights that were supposed to work forever. They do not! Someone posted last year that the leds do not fail, but the drivers. That is both false and true.
My LEDs fail, not the drivers, but the ****** driver circuit and design of the lamp makes the LEDs fail premature.
Some of the stuff has a horrible electrical design. Voltage spikes, thunderstorms etc. do not make things easier for the poor LEDs.

buy cheap, repair ten times.... !

Greetings Timo

 

[Steamchick]

I bought 2 8ft fluorescent LED replacement tubes... 1 is still "working forever" - The other hardly used - failed after much less than 100 hours.
As the 8ft "tube" contained arrays of LEDs, - with drivers from both ends - it was really 2 x 4ft "tubes-of-LEDs" taken from the same mains input. Something funny must have happened when the lamp blew, because I don't remember flicker, one dropping out or anything, just one day when I switched ON the light didn't work...
So I stripped out the blown drivers, and bought a driver off T'web.... which could only power 4/5ths of the LED array from one half. But now using that elsewhere, it works, for a few minutes, until heat stabilises somewhere and then starts to flicker.... at which point it is switched OFF. (a wasted effort!).
I'm not anything more than a basic electrician, able to wire things up, but don't understand semi-conductors, etc.
But from your comments Timo, maybe I have installed things incorrectly, in that on the light circuit for my Garage/Workshop there are 4 lights, 3 are fluorescent and 1 LED... (was 2 x LED until the escapade above). Could the fluorescent starters "spike" the LED drivers? Should I have all fluorescent or all LED to avoid clashes of technology?
(I sense a dig into the depths of the Childrens' money boxes here...).
Ta,
K2

 

[ddmckee54]

Steamchick:

I would normally say that no, one SHOULDN'T affect the other. But then again you never know what kind of tolerances were designed in, or weren't as the case may be. My Wanhao D6 clone 3D printer originally had a relay rated at 10 amps controlling a circuit that routinely had more than a 12 amp load on it, somebody didn't do the math on that one.

As for spikes, 30+ years ago during my first project for the company I still work for, we had SOMETHING that put a 69 volt spike on the neutral of a 120VAC circuit every 5 minutes. It drove the PLC's nuts, they'd interpret that spike as a power loss and shut down. We never did find the culprit, it was a big plant. We did put an Uninterruptible Power Supply on the PLC's, that let them ride through the spike.

Don

 

[Lloyd-ss]

There seems to be some interest in LED lighting. I love LED lighting everywhere, and here is why.

10 years ago we did a major remodel on a house just before we moved in. All new electrical, plumbing, HVAC, etc, etc. One thing we were after was energy efficiency and LED lighting had the "promise" of doing that. But, in the last 10 years, there have been major changes and improvements in LED lighting, and I have learned a lot and hope someone can find it useful.

We have several different kinds of LED lights, and all will work for a long, long, time, if you make the right choices, and have some luck.

Here is a pic of several of the kinds we have. Not shown are outside LED lights with integral and screw-in LED lights.

Here is what I found.
1. For the LED 4 foot shop lights, I started out with regular builder grade florescent fixtures and tubes. They are on at least 8 hours every day. After about 3 years, some of the florescent tubes started to get dim and flicker. I replaced ALL the tubes with inexpensive LED tubes with built in electronics (at each end) that were made to be a drop-in replacement for the florescent T8 and T12 tubes. And they have all worked flawlessly. That is 20 LED tubes, 8 hours a day, for 6 years, and not a sign of any of them giving up. BIG THUMBS UP.

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2. The nice flat panels, 4 foot and 2 foot long, are surface mount and about 3/4"thick. They were expensive, but are attractive, put out lumens equivalent to florescent tubes, but the the light is a bright glow rather than a harsh tube light. They are for kitchen and utility areas, but are too expensive for the shop. I have 5 of those (3-4 foot and 2-2foot) and they have all done well in the past 10 years. However, one of the 2 foot ones that is used about 4 hours a day is starting to give a short flicker about once a week. But still, a BIG THUMBS UP.

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3. Next is the 4" standard can lights with the trim that has integral LED lights and power supply. Some of these held up 2 years, and some are still going. The drivers/power supplies held up ok, but the LED elements burned out. I found some replacement LED elements and soldered them in, and they worked, but it was a pain. Finally what I did was find a decent screw-in LED flood light of the right size and lumens. I have about 20 of these throughout the house and have replaced almost all the integral LEDs with standard LED screw in light bulbs. Originally, these got a THUMBS DOWN, but they are working ok now, but No 4 is MUCH better.

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4. These are 4" recessed integral LED lights that are only 1" thick, and fit into a hole like a can light, but have 2 easy spring clips that hold them into the ceiling. There is a small 3"x3"x1" junction box that fits up into the ceiling so they are perfect for new or remodeling, are inexpensive, and are rated for insulation contact. I love these lights! They have been installed for 6 years and are flawless. A BIG THUMBS UP!

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5. Surface mount 6" diameter round integral LED lights. These are perfect for closets because by code you can't have ceiling fixtures or incandescents in closets. These mount on the upper part of the front wall in the closet right onto a round junction box. Installation is as easy as it can be. I have 3 in closets and one on the ceiling over a sink. A BIG THUMBS UP.

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6. General comment. Fixtures with integral LED elements that cannot be replaced. Don't buy cheap ones, and if you do, have a "Plan B" on how you will replace the fixture in the future.


7. General comment. Screw in LED bulbs. These have all gotten much better. CREE was one of the first to make quality reliable LED bulbs, but now there are other brands almost as good. In general, I would recommend fixtures that use screw-in LED bulbs for ease of maintenance.


8. Outdoor lighting. Most outdoor lighting has integral LEDs or screw-in bulbs. If they are integral, have a plan B to replace them if needed.

I hope this might help someone.
Lloyd

 

[timo_gross]

...
8. Outdoor lighting. Most outdoor lighting has integral LEDs or screw-in bulbs. If they are integral, have a plan B to replace them if needed.

I hope this might help someone.
Lloyd

This seems to be a little off topic, maybe we should start a thread "how do i make my messy shop visible".

Totally agree to the "plan B" side. Luckily I found some replacement parts to fix the lamps, they do not cost too much. Soldering new SMD LEDs in was tedious and "hit and miss", my method is unreliable and the tools wrong. I refuse to gear up only for this repairs, given that I can now buy spares.
I take the broken lamps down from time to time. When the shop seems to be to clean to be real, because I cannot see the mess anymore.
"Hank William": (never heard of him; was searching for "Johnny Cash") "No more darkness, no more night, Now I'm so happy, no sorrow in sight")

I buy the replacements, fix several of the lamps at the same time and put them back up. Last week I did the collection of the broken lamps and yesterday I noticed another broken one.

Some friend gave me a bunch of cheap "tube lamps" that have this connector for the to pin mains cable integrated. They can be daisychained, or used single or daisychained with cable to spread them.
Given their price, ease of mounting, easy replacement. I think they are a good candidate for shop lights.

Greetings Timo

 

[Steamchick]

Thanks. _ I think more of my old fluorescent lights will be headed for scrap now... or maybe I can just find a corner of the messy workshop to hide them, just in case I find a use for them in future? - perhaps leaving them screwed to the ceiling and not wired-in is the best storage place?
Where do the children hide their money boxes now...?

K2

 

[Lloyd-ss]

An Admission ...... or a Realization

Every morning I empty the dishwasher in the kitchen and finish putting everything away. Everything has its place and it always looks good when I am quickly done.

If I do the same thing in my shop, everything that has a home is easily put away in 30 minutes. By then I am tired of cleaning up and start "working" on something. I never get to the difficult stuff that doesn't have a home or doesn't fall into any sort of classification.

Here is what I am going to call a "Before" picture of one of my busiest benches. (And yes, most of the cabinets came from a kitchen remodel and recycle store.)
Over half of the stuff in the picture falls into the "????" category.

I hope to have an "After" picture in the next few days.

Lloyd

 

[GreenTwin]

One thing I have had to resort to if my shop gets too far out of control is to remove most of what is in the shop, and set it out in the driveway.

Then I sort things out according to tool, materials, etc.

Then I sort according to how often something will be used.

I have started using folding tables, and I fold down all the tables, since they are junk magnets.

I use those banker boxes to store things vertically, with labels.
I store the least-used items in the most difficult to access places.

Tools go in the toolbox.

I have tried to get in the habit of only opening one folding table at a time, and finishing the project on that table before I open another table, or before I begin another project.

When I started in modeling in about 2007, everything was total chaos.
Slowly I am gettting to where I consistently use a more organized approach.
One has to be religious about organization.

I have generally tried to get in the habit of cleaning the lathe and mill before I leave the shop each day, so that I always come back to a clean lathe and mill.
I find it much easier to keep a relatively clean shop clean, and extremely difficult to get a shop clean again when cleanliness is neglected for a long time.

.

 

[Lloyd-ss]

snip......................

...................................................I find it much easier to keep a relatively clean shop clean, and extremely difficult to get a shop clean again when cleanliness is neglected for a long time.

.

That is where i am at. The major reorganization point.
Lloyd-ss

 

[timo_gross]

An Admission ...... or a Realization

Admission: I am too scared to post foto of chaos. Realization: I do no know what "bickering" means, but I can spell "procrastination" .
Let*s go! (ordered some expensive tool cabinets last week, they will solve all issues ..... )

 

[GreenTwin]

I inherited my dad's lathe and mill when he died in 2006, and started setting up a shop in my 2-car garage.
My wife has never let me forget that she no longer has a garage to pull into, but I bought her some other nice stuff, so we reached sort of a settlement/truce.

There was the problem of what to do with what was already in the garage, and then the layout, etc. for a machining-only barstock-build-only shop.

Then I got the foundry bug, and so incorprated woodworking equipment for pattern making, plus foundry equipment and supplies, and then purchased a few full-sized steam engines and pumps (New York Safety steam engine, Wach steam engine, Lister diesel, Baker pump jack monitor, simplex and duplex steam pumps, etc. in 2nd photo).

So my shop has morphed a great deal over the years, and it seems like I take three steps forward, and then five backwards.
Quite frankly, I need a new very large shop, but that is not going to happen.

Here are a few photos of my garage shop, over the years.

One thing is for sure, it is difficult to try and set up and/or change a shop and also do major projects in the shop at the same time.

.