British 0-4-0 Toy Locomotive: he said

[SAM in LA]

I reviewed the instructions...they don't specify the type of solder to use. Not soft or hard...just '1/32 solder wire' and used like I do in electronics...that is, heat the parts up and touch the wire to it. (I don't mean electronic rosin-core solder.)

Is the stuff at Home Depot soft solder?

Zee,

I just went through this exercise regarding Home Depot's solder.

They have "Silver Bearing" solder. I looked it up on the manufactures site and it has a negliable amount of silver and its lead free. I ordered some solder from a site that Dean mentioned in his reply to my question.

http://store.sra-solder.com/section.php/19/1

I ordered the

WES5625 BAg-7 56% AG Wire Solder .025 Cadmium Free

and

FLS601 White Brazing Flux #601

I have not tried it yet.

I hope this is helpful.

SAM

 

[bearcar1]

All of this talk of solder brings me to inquire about a product that I have seen advertised as TIX solder. It is sold as short (3"?) pieces in a plastic tube and require a *special* flux during use. Anyway, it is advertised as having a relatively low melting point yet high strength. Can anyone comment as to it's usefulness or effectiveness in this type of application.

BC1
Jim

 

[mklotz]

This site...

http://www.shorinternational.com/Solders.htm

lists its melting point at 275 degF - not something I'd want to use around a boiler.

 

[kcmillin]

Zee, I cant help you with the Silver Solder, I'm learning here too.

However, I have used thin electrical solder in applications where I probably should not have. eg, I made a boiler and it was able to withstand 120 psi. It had a square box with over 4 square inches of surface area, and two sides soldered to it on the bottom of an old propane canister. Do the math on that, and it was well over 450 pounds of force pushing on this cobbled together boiler. I had it steamed many times at 30 psi with no problem at all, but when I increased the steam pressure to 60 + psi and about 325 degrees, disaster struck. I will not condone soft soldering a boiler, but I just had to share my experience with the suprising strength of soft solder. It was just standard thin 40/60 as far as I can remember. Most likely what you use for electrical work.

I have tested a soft solder butt joint with a 4 inch lever and a fish scale, it maxed out at 50 pounds and never broke.

Soft solder is some mighty strong stuff. but DONT Make Boilers out of it.

Hope this clears some things up.

Kel


Oh ya, DONT SOFT SOLDER BOILERS

one more thing, Soft soldering boilers is not a good idea.

Don't
Don't
Don't.

 

[bearcar1]

Good Lord, I did not know that the TIX solder had a melting temp of only 275*. That definitely is not a good thing for boiler applications. Thank you Marv, I can scratch that stuff off of my list of products to try. It would however seem to be quite useful in jewelry making class ;D

BC1
Jim

 

[mklotz]

I think that it was developed for use in jewelry repair work. At least that's what my wife used it for when she was doing that sort of thing.

I vaguely remember a TV ad where it was shown being melted with a common match. Great for field repair in the event of a bling breakdown, but not terribly useful in the shop.

 

[Troutsqueezer]

I just jumped in the truck, drove down to the local welder's supply store and viola! Silver solder and flux galore...

Kudos on the progress Zee. As always, your threads encourage more than the average amount of helpful posts and so make for good reading.

-Trout

 

[zeeprogrammer]

This is great stuff. Thanks all.

I pulled out my Oatey silver solder from some plumbing work I've done. It doesn't mention what the silver content is. Nor does their site. The MSDS simply says 1 to 5%. You'd think that if something is called 'silver' they'd call out the content. A little googling seems to indicate 4%. (To be fair...I may not have looked hard enough.)

I'm thinking 4% will work. The wire is certainly stiffer than the electronic stuff is that I'm used to.

Remember...15psi.

I'm thinking I'll practice doing a bushing on the boiler tube I have. That should address many of my newbie concerns. Then I'll cut up the backup drain pipe and have a go.

And then I'll rewrite this post. :big:

Hm..actually...since there's two bushings...I think I'll try the soft solder and the 56 and see what happens.

Nothing beats 'book learning' than 'doing learning'. ;D

As always, your threads encourage more than the average amount of helpful posts

That's cause I need the help. :big: :big: :big:

Thanks Trout.

 

[mklotz]

I just jumped in the truck, drove down to the local welder's supply store and viola! Silver solder and flux galore...

A welding store that sells musical instruments too. You really are lucky.

 

[Captain Jerry]

Marv,

Good shot. Almost slipped by me. I think it ought to be spelled "Wah-La" anyway.

Jerry

 

[Deanofid]

There's a lot of confusion here. Mainly, because us modelers, in the United States at least, don't call stuff what it is.

1. Solder is solder. It's defined.

2. Hard solder is "no such thing". We use that misnomer because we do.

Any solder that is around 1/3 or 1/2 lead is a soft solder. Lead and Tin both melt at very low temps. Tin lower than lead.
Adding silver up to 5 or 6 percent will raise the melt temp about 50 to 100 F, but it will still be a soft solder because of the amount of lead.
Kermit

Solder isn't defined by how much of something it has in it. If it joins two pieces of metal without melting the base metals, at a temperature of less than 840° f, it is solder. That's all. Doesn't matter what it has in it.

Same in Texas. Can't buy 'hard' or 'real' silver solder at HD or Lowes in-store. Deceptively-advertised soft solders are available.

There's no real "hard" solder. Solders that have low silver content, usually sold in hardware stores, aren't deceptively named. If they melt and join metals below that 840° f, and have silver in them, they are rightly named as silver bearing solder.

What WE call silver solder, or hard solder, is not solder at all. It's brazing alloy, and when we "hard solder" something, we are not soldering. We are brazing. Joining two metals with a filler metal that melts above 840° f, but less than the melting temperature of the base metals is brazing, not soldering.

If you buy something that says "solder" on the package, it's soft solder. All solder is soft solder, by definition. The people who make what WE call "hard solder" call it by its proper name: Brazing alloy. So, if you want what WE call hard solder, you need to buy silver brazing alloy.

It's no wonder we get confused on what to buy. It's all our fault for calling it by the wrong name.
I do it, and I know better. It's less confusing to the confusion that way.

Dean

 

[Troutsqueezer]

A welding store that sells musical instruments too. You really are lucky.

Hey, I might have found a welding supplier who also sells that particular genus of plant species and wasn't referring to musical instruments at all. Most likely though the "i" slipped before the "o" when I passed out from all the alcohol and my head slammed into the keyboard. *beer*

-T

 

[Kermit]

Columbia Encyclopedia: solder
(sŏd'ər), metal alloy used in the molten state as a metallic binder. The type of solder to be used is determined by the metals to be united. Soft solders are commonly composed of lead and tin and have low melting points. Hard solders (i.e., silver solders) have high melting points and are suited for use with ferrous and high-melting-point nonferrous alloys. Areas to be soldered are cleaned and coated with a flux (such as hydrochloric acid or borax) to prevent oxides from separating the solder from the surface. When brass is used in the solder or when brass surfaces are to be joined, the process is known as brazing, though the name is sometimes applied also to other hard soldering.

Found lots of entries like this one, but couldn't find mention of that set of facts you threw out there. Where is such information hidden from us mere mortals? Inquiring minds have to know.

Edit, found a mention of definition by temperature. 427 C. Above is brazing and below is soldering.

 

[mklotz]

Dean,

I've read and heard of a 800 degF (427 degC) distinction between soldering and brazing before but I've never encountered an explanation of why that particular temperature was chosen. Can you provide any information on that point?

Such a nice round number sounds suspiciously arbitrary. It makes it a bit difficult to believe it's based on some physical transition.

 

[mklotz]

Just to further confuse the issue, this reference...

http://www.uniweld.com/catalog/alloys/silver_brazing_alloys/intro.htm

seems to indicate that the 800 degF breakpoint is indeed arbitrary although it doesn't explain how it was selected.

Dean's 840 degF breakpoint is supported by this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazing

Wikipedia article which contains the following puzzling quote...

Colloquially, the inaccurate terms "silver soldering" or "hard soldering" are used, to distinguish from the process of low temperature soldering that is done with solder having a melting point below 450 °C (842 °F), or, as traditionally defined in the United States, having a melting point below 800 °F (427 °C).

 

[joe d]

Hi

Machinery's Handbook gives the 800 degrees F break-point between soldering and brazing. (pg 1249 in the 24th Edition)

Joe

 

[Deanofid]

Found lots of entries like this one, but couldn't find mention of that set of facts you threw out there. Where is such information hidden from us mere mortals? Inquiring minds have to know.

Edit, found a mention of definition by temperature. 427 C. Above is brazing and below is soldering.

Kermit, the "facts I threw out there" come from the AWS. That's the American Welding Society. They are the people who assign specifications to such things as welding rod, brazing alloys, and also the definition of solder. The U.S. Government takes their specifications seriously, and uses them in military construction. The AWS also provides inspectors (to the gubment, and to private business) to maintain all types of metal joining standards in the United States. They are the word when it comes to this.

Marv, the temperature break between soldering and brazing, as specified by the AWS is 840 deg f. I don't know why they picked that point. Same as they also set the spec for 45% non-cad silver wire as BAg-5. Don't know why they picked that number, but that's the spec for that wire.

From the same page you linked to earlier from Uniweld, their product page that has what we call hard solder does not have the words "hard solder" anywhere on it. They properly call it "silver brazing alloy". See link;
http://uniweld.com/catalog/alloys/silver_brazing_alloys/silver_brazing_alloys.htm

The Harris Calorific Co., one of the largest manufacturers in the States, gives the same AWS specs I mentioned earlier on this page;
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/faq.asp

The Harris site is a wealth of info. Just remember if you want what we call hard solder, they don't have it. They have silver brazing wire.

http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/consumables/alloys.asp?id=30

http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/consumables/FillerMetalChart.asp

Some larger library branches may have this book:
Modern Welding by Althouse, Turnquist, Bowditch & Bowditch. It will tell you most things you would want to know about AWS welding, brazing, and soldering specs.

I'm not making this stuff up. I was in the trade for a good long time, and had to know it for certification. Some of it actually stuck with me.

Dean

 

[mklotz]

Dean,

I'm certainly not suggesting that you are "making this stuff up". I've always been aware that above 800/840 the process is termed brazing and the material used is brazing alloy, not solder.

My interest has always been in the temperature. I had fondly hoped that it was associated with some physical phenomenon that might cast insight into why the experts felt it necessary to use separate terms above and below the transition temperature. That doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Deanofid]

Sorry Marv, I didn't mean to sound as though you were accusing me of something. Not at all!
Only meant to be clear that this blabber I'm putting "out there" is founded by an actual authority.

I also didn't mean there was no reason for the 840° f temp difference point. I just don't know it.
I do know that some numbers for alloys are picked out of thin air. For instance, a welding electrode, e7018, has two numbers that definitely mean something in the physical world. The "70" is minimum tensile strength in thousands of pounds. The "1" and the "8" are simply picked and adhered to for maintenance of the code. The "1" means the rod can be use in all positions, and the "8" tells the flux composition and polarity particulars, though you have to look up the AWS chart to find out what that is, (or memorize it).

I looked in a couple of books I have here, and didn't come across the reason for 840° f. I expect it's a point that means something to them.

Zee, sorry for the tangent in your thread.
I would like to hear more about your boiler, someday..

Dean

 

[mklotz]

Yes, Carl, I apologize too for dragging your thread so far off course.

How is the silver brazing practice going? Have you set anything important on fire yet?