The future of the "engine kit"

[ScottB]

Steve, I agree with the others to press on with your idea. I believe you have a great concept and if this can be done and sold within a reasonable price range I am sure it will be good. I would be interested, I am not sure why so many are posting their concerns with Feds and speeds? They are so easy to change within the program to meet the needs of their particular machine. I also agree that using G41/G42 would make tool offset diameters easier to work with. What type and size of engine were you thinking of offering? I have a Taig mill at home that has been converted to CNBC and runs on Mach and I also have full access to Haas cnc vert mills.

 

[jschoenly]

Best to follow the evolving hobby for sure! I think a CAD based "kit" would be the way to go. Could be offered in a few formats possibly to match users formats. DXF, Parasolid, and IGES or STEP would probably cover everyone's needs. Obviously DXF is different from the 3-D options, but could give options.

The logical first step to me would leave out the actual CAM, but maybe have detailed setups and construction notes for how the designer opted to make the parts. I feel like most CNC guys have their preference for tools, tool paths, and obviously different posts to deal with. The option of a full CAM "kit" could come later that might be detailed to users needs in a few options (Posted to Mach 3, Generic Fanuc, Etc) and have the tools listed for use. Hell, the kit could be designed around a few sized tool bits and they could be the only "casting" type hardware that would be received rather than metal and castings!

Someone's going to do it. Eventually in today's world it could even be evolved into a website allowing the purchaser to input options such as tools and controllers and have a fully customized kit! At work here (well in Switzerland) they were producing custom plates for ankle fractures where the doctors could chose the length, number of screw holes, and a few angles which fed into a macro based CAM system that spit out the code and produced the customized plate. Really cool stuff out there (which is obviously far off for hobby use!).

Looking forward to seeing where it heads. Seems like a sample part (HMEM Logo medallion of something) would be a logical start for judging interest and workability. Good luck!

 

[LSEW]

Y'all, I have been peeking in on this discussion and find it in line with where the hobby is
progressing. As a builder/designer/seller of scale model engine kits I am in contact with a wide
variety of folks in the hobby. I have had several requests from customers for CNC help with
some of the parts.As anypone who has built a casting kit, there are always a number of bar stock
parts to make also. This is where I would like to help out builders, but have been struggling
with exactlu how to do it.

For folks who want to build authentic scale models, I don't see castings going away.For example,
I did the pattern work for my Forest 1888 Marine Engine on my CNC. THe head pattern alone was a 23
hour run, and the material was Cherry wood. In metal I can see it taking twice that. And yes,
I have a fairly large CNC converted machine: the rough cuts were done with 5/8" endmill.

So, what to do? There was a suggestion to just throw a part out there and let foks hack on it, see
what they run into. I think this is a good idea, but it won't go far unless we all contribute our
issues and solutions. Also, I'd like to see some discussion on how to make the G code more generic.
This is an unfmaiiar area for me. I use BobCam for Solidworks. THey help their cistomers with
post processors, and I expect other CAM companies do too. Perhaps there is a way to post
generic code with a special post processor....?

If anyone is interested, I wil prepare a simple part and post the code and some kind of drawing.
I won't be posting my Soidworks models, there are just too many foks who don't respect the
value of intellectual property.

maury
www.lonestarengineworks.com

 

[Stenerso]

I think it is a great idea also. I just converted a rf45 clone to cnc (mach3) and would be very interested I this concept. I have been fascinated by your mini bike build particularly the engine. I think it would be a lot of fun to make one of the engines on my machine. so I guess I could see a market for the cad work you did, the G code program, and probably some would want to purchase some of the parts semi-machined - almost like castings.

 

[aonemarine]

Maury, if you had something you wanted to try out I have Sprut cam and have been toying around with it some and would not mind taking a crack at something for you. Im still new to cnc, but the only way to learn is to do it.
Ive also printed up a couple of Elmers plans and am surfing thru them thinking that they may be a good start for some simple cam work. The wobble plate engine (#14) looks to be an easy candidate, and so does the grasshopper (#37)

 

[jschoenly]

Some of Elmer's Engines would be a great place to start. I don't feel they are particularly saleable (maybe it would be, seems grey...) but they're are some great designs there that have parts with easy CAM, but make great examples. I rarely have a lot of time to contribute, but I'm really interested to see where this goes!

 

[aonemarine]

Oh No, it wouldnt be something to sell. Just something to put together and post on the forum for others to try out. Something simple and fun to cut ones teeth on.....

 

[aonemarine]

Hmmm, Team cam build maybe? could be interesting

 

[stevehuckss396]

Hello Gents!

After much thinking about it I am stepping out of this one. I think if i proceed only about 10% of you would be up to running "someone else's" code and everyone else wants to do the cam and this guy wants this and that guy wants this. I really don't see a good way to do something like this. Way to many directions to go. It's just one of those things where nobody will be happy unless they do it there way. Nothing wrong with that, I get it. This is why i asked the question, to find out what everybody thinks.

Cheers men!

Steve

 

[aonemarine]

Steve, you would not make a good used car salesman. Lol.
IIRC there is a free cam simulator out there somewhere that may put some fears to rest about running someone elses code. What other things have you run into??

 

[stevehuckss396]

I guess the fact that no two people want the same thing. My plan would be to package up the code with my parameters that will work for the masses. If I try to make everybody happy it will turn into a full time job. I still get questions about the V8 and don't get me wrong I am more than happy to help, but it takes time to answer, dig up photos, that type of stuff. If I packaged gcode I would get a few questions about setups and stuff like that. If I try it with code., solid models, dxf files the help line would be ringing with questions about cad, cam, CamBam, all sorts of stuff and I won't be any help unless it's specific to the software that I use. Who wants to pay money for something, need help, and get I don't know for an answer. How do you support all that.

 

[aonemarine]

Hmm, i see your points. Ill have to put some thought into it, but im thinking that documenting it with pictures may be some help.
I would still like to see you try it with one part (maybe the head) just to see how it went?
Im new to cam, perhaps thats a good thing when it comes to purchasing a cam package as i would only expect it to make the part and not much more.

 

[Wizard69]

I would suggest the CAD files, with some setup and process documentation.

CAD files that use well supported file formats!

If you look at Jerry Howells V4 he shows several pages of the steps in making the block. The first step is a rectangular block where he shows the holes to drill, progressively cutting away until the block is made. I think these steps with the CAD and include your G code, with documentation of the tools used. For some that may be ready to run.

If one has the knack for producing good videos that is well worth pursuing. I've learned a lot via YouTube since I got wise to it. The problem is not everybody has the Hollywood skills to accomplish a decent video production.

I think you ought to work on this idea, we are past the days when a design was serialized in ME magazine and guys built from that. CAD files and gcode is the future, lead on!

This last line is really why I'm responding to your post, I really hope that we are not about to see the end of ME magazines and the articles there in. Frankly theses magazines got me interested in machining in general and I learned a lot from them. As good as YouTube videos are, the drawings and text on paper often make for an easier grasp of things. I might be an old fart, but multimedia is not beyond me, I'd take a little of both. So what I'm hoping for is that you don't foretell the future here and the ME magazines stay around for a long time.

As a side note I got a survey from one of the magazines last year I think. Lots of questions but I did indicate that making CAD drawings available for download is very important for future articles. I'm not sure how that survey ever went, but if nothing else CAD files can be a great help to somebody that knows their way around the CNC software stack. These days CAD files are pretty trivial.

 

[Wizard69]

I guess the fact that no two people want the same thing.

For a businessman that is an opportunity to exploit.

My plan would be to package up the code with my parameters that will work for the masses. If I try to make everybody happy it will turn into a full time job. I still get questions about the V8 and don't get me wrong I am more than happy to help, but it takes time to answer, dig up photos, that type of stuff. If I packaged gcode I would get a few questions about setups and stuff like that. If I try it with code., solid models, dxf files the help line would be ringing with questions about cad, cam, CamBam, all sorts of stuff and I won't be any help unless it's specific to the software that I use.

This is why I agree with your dropping out. Far to many would be wanting somebody to "do it for them". The number of variables is so high that you would have many customers that you could not help at all. This isn't a good position to be in.

Who wants to pay money for something, need help, and get I don't know for an answer. How do you support all that.

Well the obvious answer here is to avoid any support at all. You could do that by making the basic design available for free. If someone manages to complete a design make sure an address or Paypal account is available for them to send a donation to! That might sound silly to some but anybody taking a little pride in their work would be free to honor the guy that made that model possible.

Please understand my perspective here, I've yet to get a mill much less a mill supporting CNC. Either way they are big expenses that one can't just pay for out of cash flow. At least not my cash flow. However I understand where the hobby is headed, in some ways CNC will actually make the hobby more affordable so there will eventually be demand for the CAD models. You already see this in the CNC router and RepRap forums. In fact there is likely thousands of models that one can download for RepRaps.

 

[stevehuckss396]

Also!

Understand that the gcode would only be for the big parts that you would get if you bought a casting kit. Crankcase, head, side cover maybe. All the other parts would still need to me made any way the builder wishes. This whole idea started when I tried to get some castings done for the demon blower. Finding someone who would even take a look at it was a 3 hour drive and very expensive.

Maybe I'll take your suggestion and do the head. If I post gcode and instructions would anybody be willing to be a beta tester?

 

[aonemarine]

Id give her a whirl. Might even learn something.
what tooling/ end mills are required?

 

[michael-au]

Would this be avalibal in metric as well ?

 

[stevehuckss396]

Would this be avalibal in metric as well ?

Sorry but no. A metric version would require me to start new doubling the work.

 

[stevehuckss396]

Id give her a whirl. Might even learn something.
what tooling/ end mills are required?

Tooling would be listed on the first page of the instructions. As the code runs there will be times when the machine stops for tool changes. Look at the code at the stop and there will be a line like this.

(1/8 ball mill going .750 deep)

You load a 1/8 ball nose in so there is enough cutter sticking out to clear at a depth of .750.

 

[michael-au]

Sorry but no. A metric version would require me to start new doubling the work.

Ok I understand, I do have some imperial cutters.

If you are going to post a program for something small to start with I would like to try it, I am keen to learn more about CNC

Can I ask what CAD CAM programs you use

Thank you
Michael