retiring to machinist

[CFLBob]

Hmm ... yes and no. If you use a bench-top mill with an R8 spindle, the tool holders will cost the same as it would for a Bridgeport or many other R8 machines. If you get a mill that has a 30, 40, or 50 spindle, then you are looking at more expensive tool holders. Either way, though, a 1/2" endmill costs the same whether it is in an R8, CAT50, or MT2 tool holder. Of course, with a bigger machine, you will likely want and need a bigger vise, bigger rotary table, etc., which WILL cost more money ... but also will be FAR more capable.

On the lathes, maybe the BX-sized tool holders cost more than the AX size; the BX size will allow you to use larger, heavier tools, but can also use the smaller and lighter (and cheaper) tools that you would use on the AX.

Anyone who has worked in manufacturing knows the price goes down with quantity - when you double your production, the cost each goes down around 25 ti 30%. When all I had was my Sherline, I was surprised at how cheap R8 tooling was compared to the micro-sized end mill holders and other tools I'd get for the Sherline. Bigger was cheaper because higher quantity.

 

[mrbugbums]

wow. I'm completely blown away by everyone's responses, feedback, advice...incredible...I got more from here in 1 day than i did at the college in a whole month. Covid ruined it with making it 95% distance learning...etc.

I'm treating everyone's comments as gospel and GOLD.
so far.... the lathe must have 1.5" bore you said.
Up to this point

busy bee rep called and informed me that they can deliver ship anything for just a few hundred bucks within 100km.
we plan to move this summer so i'm reluctant to buy a big machine til the new home is bought and the workshop floor is poured and dried.
I"m so tempted to buy a small one in addition in the meantime.
so far I haven't heard anyone give a solid reason to have a small unit...maybe it would be easier/better for my small wife...and small parts but i think i read someone uses their big unit even for small parts?
is there a small unit that would use same tools at the big one? so far it looks like I'll get the CX 603 knee mill and I know nothing about lathes.

i realize most think is foolish to not know what I want to do before getting the machines...its just makes sense to not waste time money wanting to upgrade later after I get into this.

I actually do plan to build a workshop and fill it with tools. So gathering information to make a list. doubt i'll get a deal through getting a lot at once...no competition really to have them bid.

some personal background:
my life I've always gotten the best for what i was into...when i was young and raced my bicycle was worth 14,500. my electric guitar is $3K and worth every penny. You only live once...
I'm so blessed to find this pension payout option coming next month for 602K. 207 locked LIRA, 185K cash, 95K RRSP's. my health isn't great and I don't expect too many more years, but in the meantime we plan to move this summer. my BFF is a carpenter and he will help me build the workshop. what a dream right? pour concrete floor, my son an electrical apprentice to help wiring. and my wife and I just want to enjoy making things. she loves tools more than me and barely lets me touch hers lol. so to answer many of the questions......I can buy anything and build the workshop to suit the tools. I don't understand most of what you guys are saying but its a start. I'm insanely driven obsessed when into something and for years I've dreamed of doing this....

 

[Tim Wescott]

I started out with an Enco micro-lathe that uses 1/4" tool bits. When I moved to the Smithy, which has a holder for 1/2" bits, I made myself a couple of adapters for the 1/4" bits and just kept using them for small stuff.

If I'm machining a small part and I need a custom cutter for it, I'll still make a cutter out of 1/4" square stock and use that.

So, no, you won't be throwing away all your tooling...

 

[packrat]

Quote by awake "Hmm ... yes and no. If you use a bench-top mill with an R8 spindle, the tool holders will cost the same as it would for a Bridgeport or many other R8 machines.

If you go with R8 tooling you will have no regrets, lots of R8 tooling available new and used at a fair price. It sounds like you have the money to buy a new Bridgeport Milling Machine as per your last post.?

 

[mrbugbums]

I don't know how to buy a bridgeport in canada and busybee says their knee mill for 6K canadian is quite comparable.

my old professor machinist college just emailed me and said he heard of that combo mill for just 1500 somewhere... that's insane. regulary 3400 plus tax. 1500 is nothing. I'll grab that if we find the contact....

 

[petertha]

I don't know how to buy a bridgeport in canada

There has actually been quite a few nice used mills for sale in your end of Canada, probably nudged by the economic situation. I don't even think you can buy a new (USA) Bridgeport anymore, but there are a number of lookalikes sold under Taiwan & Chinese labels. Example in your neck of the woods if you wanted to see one. They also carry used machines & are set up for delivery. As mentioned, even if you have 220v in the shop, you need the amp duty on the outlet. I want to say 30+A but don't hold me to it (you have to handle the motor start mode rated inrush rating).
https://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-model-935vs-1-milling-machine/
I had an RF-45 style mill like this. Quite capable for most model engineering needs. I ran off 220v 15A outlet
https://www.tegstools.com/king-industrial-kc-45-milling-drilling-gearhead-20-5-1-5-hp-110-220v
Other may differ but I would opt for dovetail vs round column mill. The price & weight difference isn't a big spread, but the main thing is you are perpetually re-establishing past position (losing center) by raising/lowering the head.

 

[mrbugbums]

oh that's very helpful. i'll read up on the differences...
I'll make the new workshop powered with 3 phase and special amp breakers for my 325 amp welder.
there's no love for the King machines for some reason...nobody recommends them or their customer service apparantly. the many people I've spoken to.
I belong to an amazing private forum called the MoB. we are 600 strong. Home brewers/distillers. and they post around 100 a day. any topic. its an incredible resource but nothing compared to this one regarding machining.

 

[petertha]

A lot of Canucks closer to the border buy from Precision Mathews. Lots of models to choose from, excellent customer service & apparently pain free customs paperwork. Whether things are hampered by covid you would have to inquire.
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/

 

[Tim Wescott]

1: It's worth a drive to get a $2000 machine.
2: I live in Podunk -- er, Portland Oregon, and there's at least one used machine dealer, plus several auction houses that often have machine tools.
3: It can't be all that different in Ottawa. Probably better, because it's (a) bigger, and (b) a natural place for defense-related companies to congregate.

 

[petertha]

there's no love for the King machines for some reason...nobody recommends them or their customer service apparantly.

From my own experience I'd have to agree. I have both King 14x40 lathe which I still own & RF-45 mill. They sell re-branded Asian machines just like everyone else but (at least at the time) opted for the better end, usually Taiwain over Chinese. But I feel the gap is closing +/- the machine itself. Anyways King Canada was completely useless on every inquiry for parts. Un-knowledgeable & unwilling to even return phone messages or emails. That's how I got exposed to Modern Tool who found the parts through their own channels that King Canada wouldn't lift a finger or shrugged off as no longer available. Guess who got the follow-up business (I bought the Modern 935 mill in link).

 

[mrbugbums]

i should write them a detailed email and quote all the people who shared their horrible experiences and explain how any new person looking for machines....this is what they find....and then tell them to take 1000 dollars off and in return I'll sing their praises forever....

 

[clockworkcheval]

All the good advice above has helped me to go over my own choices again carefully with a 'kill your darlings' state of mind. What I would like to contribute as a result is that I scrapped a lot of low-quality measuring equipment. There is no machining without measuring. Get the very best measuring tools you can afford!

 

[Apprentice707]

Wow ... so much good advice. I wish you well Mrbugbums. Here in the UK, I use a Myford Super 7, a small Chinese mill, and lots of tooling and accessories gathered over the last 60 years I also have a small Chinese lathe which I bought secondhand. After I had changed the headstock bearings for Timkin ones and had scraped the slide bearing surfaces for a better fit I am really pleased with it and I can pass a piece of 1-inch material into the mandrel.

I am not familiar with machines used in Canada but I am sure you have a good selection of British, American, and German machines on the secondhand market which are worth consideration. The only thing I wouldn't buy is a round column milling machine, too much chance of failing to lock the head and no vertical alignment.

What models do you have in mind? I know you can get Stuart castings in North America and I would recommend one of them as a starter project. Peter Wrights Model Engineering a Foundation Course is a mine of information for the beginner.

Hope my comments are useful and good luck

 

[Chiptosser]

After you move and you are thinking of the size of shop to build. I would seek out , ask around for machinist in the area.
It may take some time but well worth it to see some machines face to face.
You can see what these people are making size wise and get a persective of the machines and tooling.
There is a section on the forum where people have shown their shop layouts. You will need a lay out of how you want to arrange your equipment. If you are going to build a shop and by equipment and tooling and everything associated, money is going to go fast. I must stress the importance of quality tooling, very important. You need to see the equipment before buying, knowing is power.

 

[ajoeiam]

oh that's very helpful. i'll read up on the differences...
I'll make the new workshop powered with 3 phase and special amp breakers for my 325 amp welder.
there's no love for the King machines for some reason...nobody recommends them or their customer service apparantly. the many people I've spoken to.
I belong to an amazing private forum called the MoB. we are 600 strong. Home brewers/distillers. and they post around 100 a day. any topic. its an incredible resource but nothing compared to this one regarding machining.

Getting 3 phase into a small workshop is not going to be easy.
If you can - - - - that is wonderful.
Suggest that you consider finding a 240 to 480 V single phase transformer and the hie yourself over to Phase Perfect (out of South Dakota with Canuckistani distribution) and buy yourself a 480 V electronic single phase to 3 phase converter. Its likely far easier to do and maybe even cheaper than getting the 3 phase in.
If you 'can' get three phase installed you're a very very fortunate man.
Three phase power opens up your options for tools hugely!!! Now you you can buy in the industrial used market and there are machines floating around - - - - the good ones get snapped up quickly but are available.
HTH

 

[Gordon]

Since you seem to have sufficient funds and quite a time lag until you are ready to start you may want to consider purchasing a complete Sherline shop package and one of the small engine kits available from several sources. You could get some experience with machining prior to setting up a shop. The Sherline package is about $2500 and could be set up in a spare room. You would still be able to use the smaller equipment if you later decided to purchase larger equipment.

It seems a little bit premature to plunge into a hobby which you have never tried. You could easily get all of the equipment and discover that you would really enjoy something else. Perhaps you would enjoy something else like woodworking or photography.

 

[L98fiero]

Suggest that you consider finding a 240 to 480 V single phase transformer and the hie yourself over to Phase Perfect (out of South Dakota with Canuckistani distribution) and buy yourself a 480 V electronic single phase to 3 phase converter.

Depending on where you're new home is, you may not be able to get 3 phase and if you can, if it's any distance from the main 3 phase supply, even with your pensions and savings, it may not be affordable, I had a quote to bring 3 phase in about 400 feet and the estimate was in the $20k range 10 years ago. As for the 240 - 480 transformer, that's not what you need, 575/600 volt 3 phase is pretty much standard in Ontario and if you're zoned residential the supply is probably 208 or possibly 220 and the transformer will be up to 575/600, there are few 480 volt machines in Ontario. My setup is a 240 - 220 buck/boost transformer to bring the voltage down to 220 from the measured 242 volt supply, then to an American Rotary phase converter. The CNC VMC and manual lathe is 220 and then another transformer for 220 - 575 for the CNC lathe and manual mill. If you're going to CNC, older machines like my VMC can be very sensitive to the voltage drop from startup, either it or something else on the same circuit.
Also, Phase perfect is a great solution but last I heard the price was significantly higher than a basic CNC duty rotary phase converter and if you aren't planning on going CNC the rotary will be sufficient.
The other thing I'd be concerned with is buying a used machine if you have no experience with machining unless you take someone who does who does have experience, there are lots of really poor machines out there and you really don't want to start with that.

 

[MAG]

Don’t forget to budget for “accessories “.

I retired a year ago, you’ll love it. I spend my summers in the garage working on cars and reserve the cold weather for basement tinkering. I spend a fair amount of time 3D drafting then turning them into things... Have you considered CNC and 3D printing? If I had the money, I would own a Small CNC machine. Turning wheels is very rewarding and develops artesian skills, but cutting a steel, 40 tooth gear can get tedious and wears on my wrists and trigger finger. I would also buy a good, variable speed, metal saw.
I rebuilt my dad’s 1940s, 10” Atlas lathe, it’s rough, but with a new chuck it now runs true. I added a Grizzley G0704 mill. I cut steel, but I just use light cuts and feeds below the chatter point. Both machines serve me well.

Grab a machinist tool catalogue and start circling tools then add up the prices.
Dividing head / 3 and 4 jaw chucks
End Mills, 2,3,4 flute / Fly cutters / Collet set /Gear cutters
Tap and die, std, metric and mini sizes
Machinest drill index, HSS, Cobalt, Titanium / Starter bits, center drills
Steel rulers/ Digital calipers / Micrometers /edge and center finder / dial gauge
Boring bars, indexable turning tools / carbide, HSS, cobalt lathe tools
Machinest vices / quick change tool post holders

Many of these items I purchased as I discovered I “needed” them, and as my allowance dictated. But, it’s always nice to have a tool when you need it.

I added a DRO to my mill pretty cheap, but nice ones can get expensive.

I love this site and learn a lot from these guys. I read the new posts daily. Try looking at their shops and spotting what they hang on the walls. Good luck.

Here are a few things I managed with my humble machines...View attachment 123014

I want to buy a mill is the Grizzly G0705 better then the Go704? The 05 is COLUMN Mill I have been told that I should stay away from the column mills, You have done great work with The 04 Mill should I buy the Grizzly G0704 instead of the G0705 mill????? I need help with this if you can give me the Pros and Cons Thank You If any one can help me with this decision it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ShopShoe]

Regarding a "complete" shop:

I have had to build and equip work areas several times in my life. In fact, In my work life I had to do that for my employer a few times before I retired. The one thing that is constant is that when you are forced to spend a lot of money fast you will get some things you could have made better decisions about once you were "up and running." My approach to my own shop has always been to look at a purchase like a lathe or mill as a package and buy what I need to equip that item fairly well, but leave some other decisons for the future, including the possibility that you may change directions before you are "done."

For example: I would like to have a bigger lathe. I have been building up to that purchase in my head and it goes like this. I have selected a 12 x 36 lathe as the size and am comparing specs and prices for different ones on the market that I would be compfortable buying. After a few years of machining and following posts on forums and watching videos, etc., I would want to have 3-jaw scroll chuck, 4-jaw independent chuck, faceplate, and collet chuck or collet closer (for 5C Collets). I would equip it with a wedge-type QCTP and buy several more holders than what comes in the "intro" package. (I have made these in the past, but, hey, I'm dreaming here.) I would get a really good live tailstock center and a bullnose center. I would get 1/4-inch and 1/2-inch premium tailstock chucks (the dream would be Albrecht keyless.) I would buy several types of 1/2-in indexable toolholders and several different types of inserts based on the metals I would encounter, but I would also get some HSS blanks to grind for special purposes.

For consideration, but not immediate purchase, I might want a 6-jaw chuck because I sometimes turn thin tubing and plastics. I would not order a DRO setup immediately, but would consider adding it. If my chosen lathe did not have continuously variable speed, I would consider the cost of making that upgrade as I like that feature on my current lathe, but I would not do that right away.

In the shop, the new lathe creates a "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul" situation. I would have to consider adding a suitable circuit and maybe some task lighting. I might have to invest in some tool storage and I might have to get rid of someting else or replace another machine as well to save space. I would do these things in a way that would allow for the additional upgrades I mentioned above.

Regarding shop space and "amenities," Plan Big. You will never have a shop that's too big. You will need lots of room to add electrical circuits. You will love a shop that is not too cold or too hot. Those who can enjoy running water really like having it.

Since you suggest you may have a limited time in which to have a productive shop life, I would suggest you plan for that as well. You might need to plan for more room to sit and work, need more specialized light, etc. If you plan for these things, you may be able to keep working longer. You might want to consider that your future might include a 3-D printer and CNC so that you can keep creating longer: What would your upgrade path for those things be like?

In my case, I have already been thinking what kind of things I could do if I was faced with moving to a smaller house or an apartment and what things I might be adding to my shop that could go with me.

In any case, keep us aware of what you are up to and we'll share what we can.

--ShopShoe

 

[SpringHollow]

Everyone that I know who has bought Precision Matthews equipment has been happy with the equipment and the support. I personally chose to buy good used iron instead - better bang for the buck but it is definitely not the same as buying new.

Ken