retiring to machinist

[bhamm1]

I plan to build a workshop and use pension payout money because I’ve a short life expectancy so I’ve got around 20k to work with

Sorry you are so far away. I have a lathe, mill 14" band saw, and a ton of extra tooling to go with them, but I am in Texas. Bob

 

[packrat]

Quote "I don't know how to buy a Bridgeport in Canada and busy bee says their knee mill for 6K Canadian is quite comparable"

I don't think so. .

 

[L98fiero]

Quote "I don't know how to buy a Bridgeport in Canada and busy bee says their knee mill for 6K Canadian is quite comparable"

I don't think so.

I'll agree there, I had one of those, albeit 40 years ago and if they're the same, I wasn't impressed, it didn't take long for it to be replaced but now the Taiwanese and even the better Chinese machines are pretty good, as good as the Bridgeports, that's debatable, but they're also significantly less expensive and will do everything the Bridgeport will and as a side benefit, it you do need parts, you can usually get them from Bridgeport.

 

[packrat]

I don't know how to buy a bridgeport in canada

There has actually been quite a few nice used mills for sale in your end of Canada, probably nudged by the economic situation. I don't even think you can buy a new (USA) Bridgeport anymore, but there are a number of lookalikes sold under Taiwan & Chinese labels. Example in your neck of the woods if you wanted to see one. They also carry used machines & are set up for delivery. As mentioned, even if you have 220v in the shop, you need the amp duty on the outlet. I want to say 30+A but don't hold me to it (you have to handle the motor start mode rated inrush rating).
https://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-model-935vs-1-milling-machine/
I had an RF-45 style mill like this. Quite capable for most model engineering needs. I ran off 220v 15A outlet
https://www.tegstools.com/king-industrial-kc-45-milling-drilling-gearhead-20-5-1-5-hp-110-220v
Other may differ but I would opt for dovetail vs round column mill. The price & weight difference isn't a big spread, but the main thing is you are perpetually re-establishing past position (losing center) by raising/lowering the head.

I am liking that Modern mill, Bridgeport clone If you have 220 volts and the mill is three phase you can run it with a VFD and the AMPS will be below 10 AMPS for a 2 HP motor {that's in the US, don't know about Canada ?}

 

[mrbugbums]

thank you again for everyone's advice and encouragement and warnings. I will continue to do an insane amount of research like I always do with whatever I do.
. I'll probably score some amazing units, but I love that idea of getting the small package to practice. 2K is nothing.. my prof is trying to track down contact to buy the mill lathe combo from CX for just 1500 canadian....regular 3400 plus tax... i realize all the advice against the combo but its just to practice....if i do win the bid..

 

[petertha]

I am liking that Modern mill, Bridgeport clone If you have 220 volts and the mill is three phase you can run it with a VFD and the AMPS will be below 10 AMPS for a 2 HP motor {that's in the US, don't know about Canada ?}

I'm not too electrically savvy but I think 95% of USA/CDN electrical code is common, at least within context of this shop/home discussion. 3P to a home is rare & expensive, usually confined to industrial or rural & higher cost. Some go phase converter with existing 3P motors. But yes, lots of documented VFD retrofit installations on mills. Some vendors offer the motor choice upfront (3-phase or 1-phase) which leaves you to the VFD retrofit. Others who acquire a used machine with 1P-220v high amp motor buy a 3P-motor/VFD package to provide more rpm control & reduce amp duty as mentioned. VFDs seem to be getting cheaper all the time. From what I can tell, there is still work to be done - cabinet, cooling, control panel... resources on the web. I think with this in mind, you are looking for a non-mechanical-VS model like
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-835smill/
A mill VFD conversion is considered easier than a lathe because there is less to do. The VFD becomes the primary speed control, the belt (or gears) stay predominantly in one drive selection although (within limits) they can be altered to offer even more rpm/power control.

Lathe VFD conversions can be more complex depending on the model because there may be more electrical features that need to be addressed - fwd/rev through the lever (via separate switches), jogging, braking. VFD can even incorporate limit switches if you are so inclined like power feeding or threading to a stop position. Crazy nice build, but there are other VFD examples on this forum.
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm1340-the-best-jacobs-full-custom-edition.58507/

 

[ajoeiam]

Depending on where you're new home is, you may not be able to get 3 phase and if you can, if it's any distance from the main 3 phase supply, even with your pensions and savings, it may not be affordable, I had a quote to bring 3 phase in about 400 feet and the estimate was in the $20k range 10 years ago. As for the 240 - 480 transformer, that's not what you need, 575/600 volt 3 phase is pretty much standard in Ontario and if you're zoned residential the supply is probably 208 or possibly 220 and the transformer will be up to 575/600, there are few 480 volt machines in Ontario. My setup is a 240 - 220 buck/boost transformer to bring the voltage down to 220 from the measured 242 volt supply, then to an American Rotary phase converter. The CNC VMC and manual lathe is 220 and then another transformer for 220 - 575 for the CNC lathe and manual mill. If you're going to CNC, older machines like my VMC can be very sensitive to the voltage drop from startup, either it or something else on the same circuit.
Also, Phase perfect is a great solution but last I heard the price was significantly higher than a basic CNC duty rotary phase converter and if you aren't planning on going CNC the rotary will be sufficient.
The other thing I'd be concerned with is buying a used machine if you have no experience with machining unless you take someone who does who does have experience, there are lots of really poor machines out there and you really don't want to start with that.

PhasePerfect does not offer a nominal 600 V converter.
As to there not being 480 V in Ontario a look at used machines listings from there will show that whereas 600 V may be a lot more common - - - it is not the only 3 phase available. In oilfield country I was asked why I would even consider 600 V!
I would agree that a rotary phase converter is considered sufficient --- but what I found was that when I went to something past 20 hp - - - -well - - - it wasn't much larger than that and it was actually cheaper to use the electronic converter. Then - - - - and for me this was very important - - - the electronic inverter did not make the power between my power tap and the converter a dirtier power (back feeding small spikes and other electronic 'goodies' back toward the grid).
I have enough issues with electronic household stuff already without wanting to add more.
Here even if you have the money to add the 3 phase (distance about a mile so a lot more than $20k) the power company doesn't give you what you want unless you show that you're going to be using significant amounts of power - - - - which - - - I don't think a 'hobbyist' (in their definition at least) could do.

 

[ajoeiam]

I'm not too electrically savvy but I think 95% of USA/CDN electrical code is common, at least within context of this shop/home discussion. 3P to a home is rare & expensive, usually confined to industrial or rural & higher cost. Some go phase converter with existing 3P motors. But yes, lots of documented VFD retrofit installations on mills. Some vendors offer the motor choice upfront (3-phase or 1-phase) which leaves you to the VFD retrofit. Others who acquire a used machine with 1P-220v high amp motor buy a 3P-motor/VFD package to provide more rpm control & reduce amp duty as mentioned. VFDs seem to be getting cheaper all the time. From what I can tell, there is still work to be done - cabinet, cooling, control panel... resources on the web. I think with this in mind, you are looking for a non-mechanical-VS model like
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-835smill/
A mill VFD conversion is considered easier than a lathe because there is less to do. The VFD becomes the primary speed control, the belt (or gears) stay predominantly in one drive selection although (within limits) they can be altered to offer even more rpm/power control.

Lathe VFD conversions can be more complex depending on the model because there may be more electrical features that need to be addressed - fwd/rev through the lever (via separate switches), jogging, braking. VFD can even incorporate limit switches if you are so inclined like power feeding or threading to a stop position. Crazy nice build, but there are other VFD examples on this forum.
https://www.***************.com/threads/pm1340-the-best-jacobs-full-custom-edition.58507/

I'm not any kind of electrical expert but it seems to me that there was more commonality between our electrical codes in the past. That level of commonality is decreasing regularly, sad to say. It is quite frustrating to look at something as simple as conduit - - - its about 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost south of the 49th as it is here in Canuckistan and the same companies make for both. I don't really see what the huge difference is but the inspectors here just won't allow the use of conduit that is UL approved - - - - it must be CSA approved. To me this smacks of protectionism (CSA is better than UL you know - - - - which is garbage!) and really doesn't protect the consumer as much as it protects bureaucratic positions.

A VFD is a reasonable option - - - until you want something like 440/460 or 550/575 V for the machine. Even if you need more hp - - - a vfd with a 240V input either isn't available or is bloody expensive.

It is only after re-reading your last paragraph that I'm seeing that the link is to an internal to here forum.
When I click on the link I get a location unknown error.

 

[ajoeiam]

Sorry you are so far away. I have a lathe, mill 14" band saw, and a ton of extra tooling to go with them, but I am in Texas. Bob

might be worth looking into shipping.
items would need to be securely fastened to a minimum number of pallets
there are some fairly reasonable ways of getting shipping done (not all that say they are reasonable are though!!!)

 

[L98fiero]

PhasePerfect does not offer a nominal 600 V converter.
As to there not being 480 V in Ontario a look at used machines listings from there will show that whereas 600 V may be a lot more common - - - it is not the only 3 phase available. In oilfield country I was asked why I would even consider 600 V!
I would agree that a rotary phase converter is considered sufficient --- but what I found was that when I went to something past 20 hp - - - -well - - - it wasn't much larger than that and it was actually cheaper to use the electronic converter. Then - - - - and for me this was very important - - - the electronic inverter did not make the power between my power tap and the converter a dirtier power (back feeding small spikes and other electronic 'goodies' back toward the grid).
I have enough issues with electronic household stuff already without wanting to add more.
Here even if you have the money to add the 3 phase (distance about a mile so a lot more than $20k) the power company doesn't give you what you want unless you show that you're going to be using significant amounts of power - - - - which - - - I don't think a 'hobbyist' (in their definition at least) could do.

Ontario is basically 220/600 volt 3 phase, anything else will be from heavy industry where the voltage can be any of a number of different voltages, some considerably higher and you'll get some imported machines, even some 50 hz European ones but they are relatively rare. As for why you'd use 600 volts? I had a business in Saskatoon and had to run a 220/200 amp service about 220 feet, I can tell you right away, I'd much rather have run a 600V/100A service, the cost of that wire was breathtaking even 40 years ago, the difference is 3 vs 3/0 and doubles the copper used. Here in Ontario too, once you start adding power poles and possibly running a few miles of the extra wire for the three phase on the main line, breathtaking takes on new meaning and they won't, as far as I know, do it based on how much power you might use, you pay up front.

 

[L98fiero]

I don't really see what the huge difference is but the inspectors here just won't allow the use of conduit that is UL approved - - - - it must be CSA approved. To me this smacks of protectionism (CSA is better than UL you know - - - - which is garbage!) and really doesn't protect the consumer as much as it protects bureaucratic positions.

I know this is wandering somewhat off topic but in Ontario, machines must be ESA approved, it's the provincial version of the CSA and they are more strict than CSA. A business that I know set up his home based tool and cutter grinding shop, he made the mistake of having ESA come in after he had the machines installed including a multi-axis CNC grinder, all the European and American made equipment had to be upgraded to ESA standards, it was several tens of thousands dollars. As he said, he should have had them come in when he just had his compressor in the shop. BTW, the European CE approval means absolutely nothing to ESA/CSA.

 

[awake]

I want to buy a mill is the Grizzly G0705 better then the Go704? The 05 is COLUMN Mill I have been told that I should stay away from the column mills, You have done great work with The 04 Mill should I buy the Grizzly G0704 instead of the G0705 mill????? I need help with this if you can give me the Pros and Cons Thank You If any one can help me with this decision it would be greatly appreciated.

Choices, choices ... the 0705 has more power and slightly more capacity, but the round column is a drawback. Mind you, lots of people have made a lot of projects using round column mill-drills, including me - you can do it, but it does take some extra planning to stay within the capacity of the quill, or maybe some extra steps to re-locate after moving the head.

For a bit more money, you could go with the G0755 - a bit more capacity than the 0705, and a dovetail column. But at $3500, you are in the territory where you could likely find a decent used full-size Bridgeport or clone, if you have the space ...

 

[animal12]

I mighth ad to spend some time on Youtube , theres quit a few folks that are worth watching & alot of them do kind of eduicational videos from their home shops . I watch alot of Blondihacks, Mrpete222, Abom, Tom lipton at Oxtoolco & Joe Pieczynski . Theres also alot of folks that you DONT want to watch . Blondihacks also has a PM mill & lathe so you can watch them in action
animal

 

[mrbugbums]

I mighth ad to spend some time on Youtube
Any recommendations for books?

 

[mrbugbums]

Any books recommended

 

[animal12]

A machinist handbook should be the first one to get . You don't have to buy a new one unless you plan to be doing CNC stuff m theres more CNC stuff in the newer ones . Theres lots of good condition used ones out there . I picked up my 22nd edition for $25.00 on ebay . Take a look around used book stores , sometimes you find them there among other books on the matter
animal

 

[ajoeiam]

I know this is wandering somewhat off topic but in Ontario, machines must be ESA approved, it's the provincial version of the CSA and they are more strict than CSA. A business that I know set up his home based tool and cutter grinding shop, he made the mistake of having ESA come in after he had the machines installed including a multi-axis CNC grinder, all the European and American made equipment had to be upgraded to ESA standards, it was several tens of thousands dollars. As he said, he should have had them come in when he just had his compressor in the shop. BTW, the European CE approval means absolutely nothing to ESA/CSA.

Agree that this is wandering off topic but may be of use - - - - hopefully! (grin!)
IMO CSA and this ESA are bureaucratic money siphons and not much else.
There is some value in what they provide - - - - - but oh so little compared to the costs!

 

[ajoeiam]

Any books recommended

Some recommendations would follow given the equipment you get.
There are some old books that can be quite useful if you ignore their recommendations for feeds and speeds.
(They were written for high carbon steel or maybe alloy steel cutting tools. I was taught the skill of grinding cemented carbide tools - - - very not common today but boy can it be flexible - - - but it does take more skill(s).)
My library is not available to me at this time and it is not very big.
Hopefully some other chime in here.
HTH

 

[animal12]

I think another good book to start with & theres free PDF's on line , just search is HTRAL or also known
How to Run a Lathe . Lots of PDF's here too . Machinist books
animal

 

[mrbugbums]

Wow amazing resources thanks.