Lathes

[ajoeiam]

You mean drills sharpened like this:
View attachment 123367
Probably done more accurately DIY than when bought new (sharpened on a Tormek wet grinder)

The proof of the pudding in this case isn't in the looking its in the drilling.

You drill 10 holes in at least a couple different kinds of materials and measure those holes using your ball gauges and vernier micrometer and then
you will know how accurate the drills are.
I was expected to sharpen ones this size to drill to within 0.003" by hand.
That's as close as most drilled holes get specified so more really isn't required.

That drill tip does look nice!

 

[ajoeiam]

Now you are talking, I just love my tormek with the DBS-22. My dormer index bought back in the seventies cost $53 which I thought was a lot of money. Now the same set starts at $250. these bits sharpened in the Tormek are better than new. I bought this jig as I have a lot of precision drilling to do on my Acute Tool Sharpening System Kit.
Drills are an essential to any home workshop, and the means to sharpen them easily and with 4 facet is a pleasure now.
DaveC

You mention a set of drills.
I have done some looking on the intersweb and haven't found such - - - - please?

 

[Courierdog]

I don't think that the Acute System construction is necessarily as accute as suggested

There is a video with lots of drilling done on a hand drilling machine -- using the spotted centred 'spots'

already done

Bazmak made one his scrap box. Probably hitting centres is the easy bit because my chucks are not big enough and I've made them to accept larger diameters by adding soft jaws.
Again, an alternative is not to mill but to join( ? silver solder) two diss

Laughingly and not to be taken on oath of a stack of Bibles, I bought an assortment of £40 worth of round EN1A leaded to slice on my ancient 6 x4 old metal bandsaw.

Hells Bells, I've got rather high precision 'takel'. Geordie for tackle and basically I'm just keeping the grey matter with challenges

Cheers

Norman

Norman:
While it may not require a high degree of accuracy Gay suggest several stages of enlarging each and every hole. instead of just just throwing them on the drill press and drilling out the holes.
In Fact all his centre holes he chucks up the work piece in the lathe and drills out each hole using successive drill bits before running a reamer into the hold for final measurement. That seems rather precise to me.
I look at it similarly as the Tormek DBS-22. Find I have to use the magnifier to align grinding of the drill bit other wise the flutes do not end up equal.
Performing Drilling operations with a well ground and accurate drill bit is a very different experience. very little pressure is required and oddly enough the drill remains sharper longer.
see article DRILL POINT GEOMETRY , an article by JOSEPH MAZOFF
DRILL POINT GEOMETRY
by JOSEPH MAZOFF
Mr. Joseph Mazoff, Inventor, Member of the Society of Manufacturing Engineers and President of J & A Machinery started his metal crafts career in Pennsylvania as a young apprentice of nine years old in a black smith shop in 1926.
In 1938 at age 18, competing against more than 300 experienced competitors in their fifties and sixties, Mr. Mazoff took first place in the Pennsylvania state wide tool grinding contest, including twist drill sharpening.
The entire article is a worth while read. As it turned out this was a war production secret of the Americans, extend the ability to drill holes faster, longer with the same tool be came very significant. I had a friend whose father was a tool and die maker and during the war was sent into many places to sort out the machining processes to enable wartime production. These were dark and desperate times. Depending on the country you live in, some literally ate and slept at their machines for the duration, while this was not the case in North America, we were very spoiled. Some countries, your work was you LIFE.

 

[Courierdog]

Look up the Dormer Precision Drill index. look up the price in the 1970's vs now.
This is why som many of us now buy direct from China. The local distributor usually gets it from his supplier in the US, all this adds to the cost of the item.
However buying direct assumes you do all the research of the product and its quality. So it becomes a two edged sword. and while they say you can return the item, good luck with that. A for instance is gauge Blocks. They all have to be referenced back to a Standard. So who makes the item is required to trace it accuracy back to a known Standard, and supply the documentation support.
Not all tooling goes this far in their quest for quality.
For me this is just a hobby. I no longer have to certify any authenticity to a document or statement I make.

 

[goldstar31]

May I remind you that the person enjoying what is left at over 90 years in my bit of the firmament is---
Partially Sighted and the loss of sight from macular degeneration is---- DEGENERATION.

 

[HennieL]

You mention a set of drills.
I have done some looking on the intersweb and haven't found such - - - - please?

Now this is another interesting subject - are certain brands of drills better than others, and which brand to buy...

Being a serious amateur knife maker, I am always pushing the boundary of blade performance through proper selection of steels and accurate heat treating - and then testing the steel using an accurate, lab grade Rockwell tester bought at an enormous cost (for me...) some years ago. Having a large assortment of drill bits in my "scrap box" (bought my first bit nearly 50 years ago...), I decided about a year ago to test the hardness of the various brands of bits.

Talk about apples and oranges... hardness ranged from about 20Rc on some old non-HSS bits to about 62 on one brand of locally (South African made, but also available in Europe, I believe) HSS-Co5 bits. Knowing that this particular type of steel hardens to around 66Rc before tempering, I was quite satisfied that this brand was properly tempered to avoid excess brittleness, whilst still being substantially harder than all the other brands tested. In use (drilling of (annealed) high-carbon, high-alloy, and stainless steels), these bits stay sharp more than twice as long as any other brand that I have, and I can certainly recommend them (they also cost more than many others, but I will rather pay more up front, and have much less sharpening time - time is money after all).

I'm specifically not mentioning brand names, as I'm not sure if this would be compliant with the Forum's rules, but will gladly share with anyone that might be interested if you send me a PM. I would hope that a similar "top notch" brand would be available in the USA, but one would probably have to test some drills to confirm hardness/performance.

 

[ajoeiam]

Norman:
While it may not require a high degree of accuracy Gay suggest several stages of enlarging each and every hole. instead of just just throwing them on the drill press and drilling out the holes.
In Fact all his centre holes he chucks up the work piece in the lathe and drills out each hole using successive drill bits before running a reamer into the hold for final measurement. That seems rather precise to me.
I look at it similarly as the Tormek DBS-22. Find I have to use the magnifier to align grinding of the drill bit other wise the flutes do not end up equal.
Performing Drilling operations with a well ground and accurate drill bit is a very different experience. very little pressure is required and oddly enough the drill remains sharper longer.
see article DRILL POINT GEOMETRY , an article by JOSEPH MAZOFF
DRILL POINT GEOMETRY
by JOSEPH MAZOFF
Mr. Joseph Mazoff, Inventor, Member of the Society of Manufacturing Engineers and President of J & A Machinery started his metal crafts career in Pennsylvania as a young apprentice of nine years old in a black smith shop in 1926.
In 1938 at age 18, competing against more than 300 experienced competitors in their fifties and sixties, Mr. Mazoff took first place in the Pennsylvania state wide tool grinding contest, including twist drill sharpening.
The entire article is a worth while read. As it turned out this was a war production secret of the Americans, extend the ability to drill holes faster, longer with the same tool be came very significant. I had a friend whose father was a tool and die maker and during the war was sent into many places to sort out the machining processes to enable wartime production. These were dark and desperate times. Depending on the country you live in, some literally ate and slept at their machines for the duration, while this was not the case in North America, we were very spoiled. Some countries, your work was you LIFE.

Hmmmmmm - - - - in my experience some of the articles in Modern Machine Shop are somewhat disguised brag pieces.
That only this particular system is so wonderful - - - - - not going to fly.
Even better - - - - grinding drill bits by hand - - - - - a lost skill and so very hard to do - - - - - - pure unadulterated male bovine excrement!!!
It is possible to learn to do this freehand.
Is it easy - - - nope, but the more you practice the better you'll get.
(That was what I was told when I was introduced to drill sharpening - - - along with "the more you hate pushing on the drill (hand drilling) the faster you'll get better at sharpening".)

 

[ShopShoe]

I believe that you might find some very good drill bits at bargain prices, but the next time you buy the same inexpensive brand you may not get the same thing. I think one thing that premium brands have to offer more of is consistency from one sample to another.

The other thing you may find with "cheaper" alternatives is goodness in one area and badness in another: I once found a good drill with a correctly-ground, sharp, and hard cutting end, but the shank was not round and the bit was obviously bent. I have also found cheap drills that seem good, but are stamped as a size that they are not.

I buy "premium" drills for things like making holes to be tapped, and others for seldom-needed sizes and for less critical uses. BTW, I have a penchant for organization, so I have the indexes for taps with accompanying drills: I bought the indexes, then filled them myself: I did not buy the bargain "Tap and Drill Set" as sold by some of my suppliers.

--ShopShoe

 

[firefite]

All I can add is read, read, read!
& Safety, Safety, Safety!

 

[Richard Hed]

I'm currently thinking of buying the mini lathe (link below) from BusyBee tools because I have no experience and want to get started somewhere. It's painful to think of for just another 2 grand I could get a real lathe, but on the other hand buying the small one will maybe be slightly easier and safer. maybe easier for my wife to get involved started also, its portable. easy to pass on to my son and have him get started with machining also.
Because we plan to move this summer I don't want to buy something right now that weighs a tonne just to be moved again also.

I am just a brand new beginner with no experience so any advice would be appreciated for which attachments I need to get with it to get started. I'm guessing that nothing on the small unit is compatible transferable to the real lathe which I will buy this summer.
There is a list of attachments and parts on the webpage and I don't know where to begin. I'm hoping to also practice milling with the small unit also to start learning the concept of milling. so it has an attachment they sell "milling attachment".
Is it too complicated or vague to ask you for a list of what I need to go with this so I can start turning and milling small things?

LATHE MINI 7IN. X12IN. 1/2HP CX SERIES CSA CX704

Thank-you kindly for your feedback, discouragement and encouragement: all are very welcome.
Stephan Prystanski
Ottawa, Ontario

I would not get that little toy lathe for that price because all the standard accessories, ie., 4 jaw, face plate, etc., cost extra--enough that you could just as easily pay 1500$, get a larger lathe and with all the standard accessories. Not only that, I consider those prices to be excessive.

 

[Richard Hed]

Hmmmmmm - - - - in my experience some of the articles in Modern Machine Shop are somewhat disguised brag pieces.
That only this particular system is so wonderful - - - - - not going to fly.
Even better - - - - grinding drill bits by hand - - - - - a lost skill and so very hard to do - - - - - - pure unadulterated male bovine excrement!!!
It is possible to learn to do this freehand.
Is it easy - - - nope, but the more you practice the better you'll get.
(That was what I was told when I was introduced to drill sharpening - - - along with "the more you hate pushing on the drill (hand drilling) the faster you'll get better at sharpening".)

I agree with you. Their older mags seem to me to have had more good stuff, that is, stuff to build which is why I get the mag. Now there is very little, it seems to me. I stopt buying the mag as it seemed to me to be exactly what you said, a place to brag in disguise. This forum is a good place to brag and we can all tease each other over our bragging, or get angry, or shed tears of joy or what ever, but a magazine one can only save it for the future generations or burn it in anger for being expensive but virtually worthless.

 

[packrat]

I looked at a copy of the " Modern Machine Shop mag" and it is way too high Tec for me, what I know about machining I learned from the old lathes
in the high school machine shop and trade school night class.

 

[Richard Hed]

I looked at a cope of the " Modern Machine Shop mag" and it is way too high Tec for me, what I know about machining I learned from the old lathes
in the high school machine shop and trade school night class.

As far as I can tell, this mag is supposed to be for amateurs and model makers, but really, it is just a way to advertise for machines out of reach in price for most of us.

 

[L98fiero]

As far as I can tell, this mag is supposed to be for amateurs and model makers, but really, it is just a way to advertise for machines out of reach in price for most of us.

Not sure we are talking about the same "Modern Machine Shop mag" but the one I get as a free subscription for my business definitely isn't for amateurs and model makers unless they are into cutting edge machining equipment and processes. Even for me, being semi-retired, 99% is just interest in where the industry is headed and it surely isn't oriented toward back yard shops and amateurs.

 

[Richard Hed]

Not sure we are talking about the same "Modern Machine Shop mag" but the one I get as a free subscription for my business definitely isn't for amateurs and model makers unless they are into cutting edge machining equipment and processes. Even for me, being semi-retired, 99% is just interest in where the industry is headed and it surely isn't oriented toward back yard shops and amateurs.

Oh, yes, You are right, I was thimking of some other mags.

 

[Howder1951]

In regard to drill grinding by hand; Yes it can be learned, yes the more you do the better you get. Actually for anyone who has ground a lathe bit, it is quite similar, pay attention to relief angles and keep it symmetrical to the best of your ability and those bits will yield to your knowledge. And it is easy than going to storage and getting a new bit!

 

[Tug40]

I have clumsy hands, always had trouble with 3/32-1/8 bits by hand.
I finally purchased the entry level of the entry level Drill Doctor by Darex.
It’s the 350X, 118 angle only & it will not split the point. About 50 bucks.
But (after a learning curve and following the instructions exactly) it works great for me.
I have no affiliation to Darex BTW.
And I learned years ago to measure the drill bits before using, somebody (more than likely me) may have put it in the wrong drawer, it’s very quick with a dial caliper.
And ANY lathe is better than no lathe.
Standard disclaimer, my opinion. Others may differ.

 

[Henry K]

I just looked at an article in Modern Machine Shop. It is a trade magazine -professionals sharing things they learned and are will to share with others in their professional field. Definitely not a hobby magazine. I have even sent this link the fellow professors in my university for their thoughts.

https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/shifting-from-on-machine-to-offline-programming
I consider myself both a Professional and Amateur in the machine shop field.

Several YouTube posters are also in this boat - look at joe pieczynski - great stuff and not bragging.

 

[Richard Hed]

I have clumsy hands, always had trouble with 3/32-1/8 bits by hand.
I finally purchased the entry level of the entry level Drill Doctor by Darex.
It’s the 350X, 118 angle only & it will not split the point. About 50 bucks.
But (after a learning curve and following the instructions exactly) it works great for me.
I have no affiliation to Darex BTW.
And I learned years ago to measure the drill bits before using, somebody (more than likely me) may have put it in the wrong drawer, it’s very quick with a dial caliper.
And ANY lathe is better than no lathe.
Standard disclaimer, my opinion. Others may differ.

Yes, it's true, ANY lathe is better than no lathe. I've been saying the same thing bout my little Enco, it's a piece of krap but compared to no lathe it's a Diamond. I managed in January, however, to get a REAL lathe and it's really like a Diamond, cuts like butter, accurate and so on. W/ LH threads.

 

[Ron Lunsford]

If I may add my 2 cents on hand sharpening drill bit... I worked in a small machine job shop and was hungry for knowledge. At the time my boss would on occasion go to auctions and swap-meats looking for various items for the shop. On one of these adventures he came across a gentleman with a 3lbs coffee can full of drill bits. They were used to say the least. The next Monday when I came to work he had this mound of drills sitting on the bench next to the bench grinder. He proceeded to tell me, "so you wanted to learn how to sharpen drills by hand, well here you go". Because of the condition and the small price he paid he told me he wasn't worried about the mistakes I was bound to make. Well once I had gone through about half of the mound I found I was getting a better eye hand coordination and I was actually able to use the majority of these drills over and over again. I guess all I'm saying is, it can be done if you put in the time.

Regards
Ron