Late Era Enclosed Steam Engines

[GreenTwin]

There was a complaint about hijacking the 36x60x54 thread with off-topic material, so I will try to be more diligent about that in the future, and perhaps others can follow suite.

A question was brought up concerning where to find plans for one of the late-steam-era fully enclosed engines, such as one that was pictured in a museum in England.

I had a fellow offer me two of those engines, perhaps 600 lbs each, twins, with cylinders visibly separated from the crankcase, to prevent condenstate from getting into the crankcase.

I really like the style of steam engines from the late 1800's, and they appeal to me because they are relatively simple, with a minimum of parts, and most of that era retain the old-school look/feel, with beautiful spoked flywheels, open crankcases, and generally an elegant simplicity.
I have compared the late 1800's style to the Greek/Roman temples, where there is a lot of subtle things going on with convex surfaces and tapers, in order to give a visually correct look.

I am not sure if I can find photos of the engines someone tried to sell me, but I will look.
They were too heavy to fit in the minivan, and the wife would not have understood if I showed up with that many engines.
I did not have a hoist either.
The engines were off of a ship of some sort, up by the great lakes.

I mentioned the Westinghouse style of steam engine, although this style is not really what the OP asked about.
The Westinghouse style is what I consider a morph between a more modern high speed internal combustion engine and a steam engine.
I think all the Westinghouse engines were single-acting, like almost all internal combustion engines (save a few rare types).
The more advanced Westinghouse style was a compound, for better efficiency.
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[GreenTwin]

I have posted this before, but this is I think a really good illustration of the events that occur in a typical steam engines.

And also attached is my displacement diagram made with an Excel spreadsheet, showing the ports and valve travel for a Stanley 20hp steam engine. I much prefer the displacement diagram to the polar diagram, and some notable steam design engineers of old felt the same way.

If you plan on building a steam engine, it helps to understand the typical events that happen as the engine is running, and how that relates to valve edges, and port openings.

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[GreenTwin]

The displacement diagrams could be produced by a mechanical machine, as illustrated in a book by Dalby.

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[GreenTwin]

Here are the photos of a few totally enclosed steam engines that I was offered for $600.00 each.
I really would have brought these home if I could have fit them in the van.
It was too long of a trip to go back and retrieve them.

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[GreenTwin]

Some interesting items that I see on this engine.

1. Looks like pressure relief valves on top of each cylinder, to prevent lock from excessive condensate ?
The piston valve engines do not automatically release condensate from the cylinder like a D-valve does, and so I have seen a lot of piston-valved steam engines with relieve valves on both ends of the cylinder.

2. Apparently a flywheel mounted governor system.

3. Multi-piece crankshaft, since there is a bolt visible.

4. It looks like a compound with all that external plumbing, but the cylinders appear to be the same size.
I don't quite understand that.

5. Constant speed adjusted by the knobs on the left ?

6. Probably internal splash lubrication.

7. Crosshead guide and valve rod guides cast into the crankcase block.

8. I don't see any means to reverse the engine.

9. Crank throws at 180 degrees ? so not a self-starting engine.
Steam engines used to power generators were often configured this way, since they did not need to be reversed or stop/started very often.

10. Cylinders appear to be inboard; piston valves outboard over the eccentrics.

11. The crosshead guides have an interesting angular brace on them.

12. I am not sure about inside or outside admission.

The old books mention that the casting wall thickness should be uniform throughout the cylinder/steam chest, and I generally see this in sections of steam engines. This was to prevent thinner sections of the casting solidifying first, and drawing from the thicker sections that are still molten, which can cause hot tears.

 

[GreenTwin]

You can see pretty consistent casting wall thickness in these sections.

I think the webs that were previously discussed are a result of maintaining a thin wall in some parts of the casting that needs further bracing to prevent deflection.
Sort of like a bridge truss, to maintain rigidity of an otherwise lightweight and thin structure.
And of course weight=money, and so you want to minimize the net weight of all castings, while maintaining the required strength.

Sort of like the ribs on top of a steamer trunk, to its top from being crushed under the weight of trunks stacked on top of it.
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5th engraving down shows a piston valve with outside admission, and a valve chamber flush with the cylinder head.

2nd to last engraving shows a piston valve, with the valve chamber protruding significantly beyond the end of the cylinder.
I can't difinitively state whether this engine is inside or outside admission.

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[Jasonb]

Now we have a bunch of slide valve engine images!

Back to the original question of plans for the engine type originally questioned.

Although I am not aware of any scale plans there are quite a lot of designs for similar 2 cylinder enclosed engines that could be used as a basis for a scale model just by using their mechanical layout and adding features to the outside to make them look like a replica of a full size engine.

The Stuart Sirius is probably the best known and still available as castings or just drawings. There was also the similar Sun and Star which can sometimes be found. Less common were the range of MTB engine sthat they did intended for high speed marine model use.

Having a bit of a look last night I also found drawings by S R Webb of his "gemini" engine which was 7/8 x 7/8 and unlike the Stuarts which use a geared shaft to work the piston this design has the eccentric driven rod and bellcrank arrangement so would be the ideal candidate for an external makeover.

Although the belt drive is wrong for a period replica these engines by Graham Meek are a modern take on the older design. I have since found that they do draw some inspiration from E.T. Westbury's "Gemini" (popular name that!)

Plans should still be available from Sarik in the UK

Apart from the odd stuart I don't see many of this style of engine being made, quite likely due to the fact there is not much going on visually when running so don't make a good subject for display. Also with Brushless motors and Lipo batteries the need for these engines in model racing boats has certainly dried up compared to their popularity 100 years or so ago when hooke dup to a flash steam boiler.

The "box with an oval on top" layout of these engines would make it quite easy to pattern make or fabricate, adding iron liners would allow for easy home aluminium casting. So Richard Head I look forward to you making a model of this type, infact It would be good to see you making anything

 

[Jasonb]

Pat I don't think that engine is a compound.

Steam enters via the governor controlled valve to the first valve chamber

Upper small dia link pipe takes steam from their to the further valve chamber

Lower larger dia link pipe picks up the two exhausts and combines them as one for piping away.

 

[GreenTwin]

For the sake of discussion, if I were going to build a totally enclosed twin steam engine, and I don't see any sections of any engine like that, I would start with the Westinghouse, remove the top valve, and install the cylinder/valve block up on rods.

Sort of like this crude sketch.

The pistons become the crossheads.

 

[GreenTwin]

Pat I don't think that engine is a compound.

Steam enters via the governor controlled valve to the first valve chamber

Upper small dia link pipe takes steam from their to the further valve chamber

Lower larger dia link pipe picks up the two exhausts and combines them as one for piping away.

I think you are right about that.

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[GreenTwin]

So for the example above, you could use piston valves, and I would guess most of these enclosed engines used piston valves, but you could also put the valves in a common steam chest between the cylinders, such as shown in the photo below, and use Stanley-style centrally-mounted D-valves.

The Stanley cylinders are mounted on rods, and so that would be a good fit for our hypothetical example of making a totally enclosed twin steam engine.

I find the D-valves to be easier to make.

You would have to extend the crank out both sides of the engine (in the Stanley example).

 

[packrat]

greentwin , That engine in your photos that is painted white, would be a good price at $600, if
you would be able to pick it up somehow.??

 

[Richard Hed]

Now we have a bunch of slide valve engine images!

Back to the original question of plans for the engine type originally questioned.

Although I am not aware of any scale plans there are quite a lot of designs for similar 2 cylinder enclosed engines that could be used as a basis for a scale model just by using their mechanical layout and adding features to the outside to make them look like a replica of a full size engine.

The Stuart Sirius is probably the best known and still available as castings or just drawings. There was also the similar Sun and Star which can sometimes be found. Less common were the range of MTB engine sthat they did intended for high speed marine model use.

Having a bit of a look last night I also found drawings by S R Webb of his "gemini" engine which was 7/8 x 7/8 and unlike the Stuarts which use a geared shaft to work the piston this design has the eccentric driven rod and bellcrank arrangement so would be the ideal candidate for an external makeover.

View attachment 158126

Although the belt drive is wrong for a period replica these engines by Graham Meek are a modern take on the older design. I have since found that they do draw some inspiration from E.T. Westbury's "Gemini" (popular name that!)

View attachment 158127

View attachment 158128

Plans should still be available from Sarik in the UK

View attachment 158129

Apart from the odd stuart I don't see many of this style of engine being made, quite likely due to the fact there is not much going on visually when running so don't make a good subject for display. Also with Brushless motors and Lipo batteries the need for these engines in model racing boats has certainly dried up compared to their popularity 100 years or so ago when hooke dup to a flash steam boiler.

The "box with an oval on top" layout of these engines would make it quite easy to pattern make or fabricate, adding iron liners would allow for easy home aluminium casting. So Richard Head I look forward to you making a model of this type, infact It would be good to see you making anything

You guys have all given me a bunch of yummy stuff. I ordered the book

The Gemini High Speed Engine for Flash Steam​

from Tee publishing in UK (a facsimile). BTW, my name is spelled (Hed). Have you ever heard of "Harry Head" a naughty underground comic from Vancouver from the late 60's? That's where I get my name but spelled in a way as to make sure peeps understand it as a joke. Harry Head was one of the funniest comics ever.

Anyway, I'm surprized and pleezed that you all have found so much info so quickly. As for myself, when I do searches for whatever, I find myself spending hours--MANY hours, because there is so much interesting stuff that I get completely distracted.

Just FYI, I am trying to get any info about steam engines that take as little as possible maintenance while running. These enclosed engines match that requiremnt. Frankly, I never knew these engines existed, all the types I have seen are "open". Altho' the old style engine is extremely interesting, it is not really a type that one would want to use for powering something now, if possible. The open style have all that oiling that is necessary with oilers. I really appreciate all that interesting "new" work that was done on steam engines. Frankly, (And I have been studying steam since the 70's), I have a hard time believing the steam engine was killd off so easily. At the very least, I would tend to believe that stationary steam engines have a place in farms, factories and other places as the fuel for them is virtually ANYTHING that burns including grass, buffalo chips, wood chips, liquid fuels, gaseous fuels, farts(that is, the speeches of politicians), rubber tires and ded railroad ties. The burning fuels can even be taught to emit non-particulate smoke, that is, smokeless smoke. In a lot of places these fuels are free for the taking just the cost in time and chainsaw gasoline. I am looking forward to the steam engine re-emergence.

 

[GreenTwin]

greentwin , That engine in your photos that is painted white, would be a good price at $600, if
you would be able to pick it up somehow.??

That was a few years ago, up in Chicago, and the fellow had terminal cancer, so I am sure both he and those engines are gone.
Very nice engines; I hated leaving them.
He had a Mason too, but I did not have enough money to purchase it.

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[GreenTwin]

I have seen a few pockets of steam engine revival, such as a bottle engine powering a generator at someone's house, but not much more than that.
It boils down to efficiency, and even the best of steam engines do not have good efficiency.

The good part about steam engines is that you can burn pretty much anthing that burns in the boiler, including cow dung, straw, wood, coal, sunflower seed shells, and even things like corn (not recommending to waste food, but it does burn), etc.

The downside is building and maintaining a boiler.
Those things are a pain, and you basically need to be standing there to watch the water level at all times.

One engine that survived well into the 1950's was the Soule Speedy Twin, because it had so much torque, and could easily be reversed.
The Speedy Twin is a very powerful, and very compact engine, and can reverse using only two eccentrics and no links.
It took me a long time to figure out how a Speedy Twin is capable of reversing.
The Speedy Twin was used to power sawmill carriages, and the amount of money that a sawmill could make was directly tied to how many times the carriage could transit per hour.
Some operators tried electric motors on their carriage, but converted back to the Speedy Twin, since their mill output dropped when trying to use an electric motor.
And a sawmill generates a large amount of sawdust, which makes good fuel for boilers, and so free fuel.

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[Jasonb]

More likely to use a steam turbine these days to generate electricity to drive a motor than use the steam to run a steam engine

 

[GreenTwin]

I have seen some who purchase Lister clone diesel 1-cylinder engines, and run generators from them.
Supposedly you have to de-carbon the head ever so often, which would not be fun.

I actually ordered a 14kW Generac diesel, but it was during the suppy chain/COVID issues, and it never shipped; I eventually cancelled the order. It had a naturally aspirated Mistubishi diesel in it, and I think would be ideal for long term power outage or offgrid use.

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[GreenTwin]

This is that gear mold I posted on the other thread.
(not my photo)

And an impressive video of someone casting a large gear.
Thanks for someone pointing this out to me.

 

[krypto]

Stuart Turner S-Type? This video should be set to the 12:00 mark:



John Mills (Doubleboost) did a complete rebuild with videos on this engine.

JasonB, did you ever model this Stuart? I found some old forum entries that you were looking for more information.

 

[Jasonb]

No. I only got th basic 3D model done but not fully detailed. Did also make a small start on the 4" dia crankcase but lack of knowing what was happening inside at the time saw the project sidelined. I did see Doubleboosts videos so would have the info now but as I said earlier you can't really see what's going on when running so less appeal.