I see that the pattern, plans and rights are up for sale for the Galloway 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8 scales, the Little York, Little Brother, 1/4 Olds, 2 different Ball Hop Monitors, the Woodpecker and may be others are up for sale. The question for people that have gone down this business road before, in the current climate, with the supposed lack of interest in castings and material costs, is it possible to make a viable business out of them. I'm sure it's not a big money maker but break even plus coffee money? I know nothing about getting castings made but I know what I went through to find a ball top monitor set and would hate to see these patterns and plans fade into obscurity like so many others have. Gone is gone with this stuff. Bob.
Casting kit business?
- Thread starter Oldiron
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Were do you see that?
Edit:
I found it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265714106801?hash=item3dddcb81b1:g:B1gAAOSwGzBilBGj
From the advertisement:
Woodpecker Hit and Miss Patterns, Plans and Rights to Build Castings.
We are selling the entire Model Hit and Miss Woodpecker Patterns Plans and Remaining Castings. 14 Patterns and Core boxes. At over $2,000 per board if they were remade today would cost over $25,000 to reproduce.
Price includes all patterns and digital plans to build the scale model of the Woodpecker Hit and Miss Engine.
Working Demo Model available for and additional $4,000.
We are also interested in selling.: The Galloway 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8 Scale Hit and Miss Patterns.
Also the Little York, Little Brother, 1/4 Olds, 2 different Ball Hop Monitors and others.
Will work good deal if someone wants to purchase all the engines and patterns.
.
Edit:
I found it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265714106801?hash=item3dddcb81b1:g:B1gAAOSwGzBilBGj
From the advertisement:
Woodpecker Hit and Miss Patterns, Plans and Rights to Build Castings.
We are selling the entire Model Hit and Miss Woodpecker Patterns Plans and Remaining Castings. 14 Patterns and Core boxes. At over $2,000 per board if they were remade today would cost over $25,000 to reproduce.
Price includes all patterns and digital plans to build the scale model of the Woodpecker Hit and Miss Engine.
Working Demo Model available for and additional $4,000.
We are also interested in selling.: The Galloway 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8 Scale Hit and Miss Patterns.
Also the Little York, Little Brother, 1/4 Olds, 2 different Ball Hop Monitors and others.
Will work good deal if someone wants to purchase all the engines and patterns.
.
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I have considered creating a casting kit company, and have not entirely ruled that out, but having talked to some who were in the kit business, I am not inclined to get into that business.
What I hear is that foundry costs are going up like a Saturn V rocket, and quality is going down dramatically.
Rule #1 of running a business is you have to make a profit, else you are just passing the money from one individual to another, while keeping none of it for yourself, and working yourself silly in the process.
One could make some pro/con arguements about the asking price for the above castings, plans, right to sell, and patterns, but I can honestly say that purchasing even the items for that one kit is far beyond my reach.
The math does not add up for me.
Perhaps someone else with deeper pockets will dive in.
.
What I hear is that foundry costs are going up like a Saturn V rocket, and quality is going down dramatically.
Rule #1 of running a business is you have to make a profit, else you are just passing the money from one individual to another, while keeping none of it for yourself, and working yourself silly in the process.
One could make some pro/con arguements about the asking price for the above castings, plans, right to sell, and patterns, but I can honestly say that purchasing even the items for that one kit is far beyond my reach.
The math does not add up for me.
Perhaps someone else with deeper pockets will dive in.
.
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I do hope someone can preserve these patterns, it would be such a loss.
As somone who makes and sells casting kits for a living i would say its realy hard work!
Maybe not so bad if you have plenty of investment to make stock. And advertisment.
I design and cast all my models myself and have been doing it full time since i quit my job literally a week before the global pandemic.
Maybe im just realy unlucky, but the pandemic realy slowed down bussiness and getting supplies is still taking longer than from before. I also had my workshop burn down in the first year and had to start again. Oh and then bloody brexit uk wiped out half of my customers in europe. Then ebay shafted me and they ended there overseas sales program so lost more customers.
Maybe if i was retired with a house payed for it wouldnt be too bad an income. But my current plan is moving into a carravan in the workshop i rent lol, il give it another year than im looking for a real job.
Best regards.
Luke.
As somone who makes and sells casting kits for a living i would say its realy hard work!
Maybe not so bad if you have plenty of investment to make stock. And advertisment.
I design and cast all my models myself and have been doing it full time since i quit my job literally a week before the global pandemic.
Maybe im just realy unlucky, but the pandemic realy slowed down bussiness and getting supplies is still taking longer than from before. I also had my workshop burn down in the first year and had to start again. Oh and then bloody brexit uk wiped out half of my customers in europe. Then ebay shafted me and they ended there overseas sales program so lost more customers.
Maybe if i was retired with a house payed for it wouldnt be too bad an income. But my current plan is moving into a carravan in the workshop i rent lol, il give it another year than im looking for a real job.
Best regards.
Luke.
I attended NAMES in 2019, and it was a different world then.
Things are dicy post-pandemic, and the supply chain distruptions have made it very difficult to buy some types of equipment.
Inflation is rampant, and so material costs are unpredictable.
A buddy of mine is talking about quitting his job with a 1st rate company, and running a foundry full time.
I told him "Don't quit your day job", but his is going to do it.
Best of luck to him, but the odds are stacked against him, especially these days.
The economic climate these days is dramatically different than 2019.
I survived 2008/2009, but it was not fun. These days, I try to make myself "recession-proof", by keeping costs as low as possible.
If I started a casting kit company, it would be after I retired (I still work full time, like 70 hrs per week on average).
And it would be with the understanding that it would be on a hobby level, and not a "for-profit" thing.
Instead of trying to mass produce casting kits, I would use limited production, and make say 10 kits for each engine type, and that would be it.
They would not be cheap kits, but they would definitely be superb kits like none other (that is the goal anyway).
As I told someone yesterday, for the amount of money they are asking for that one set of patterns/drawings/castings, I could buy a new copy of Solidworks, buy the latest large format Prusa printer, build a very nice iron foundry with all the accessories, molding sand, and still have some money left over.
The trick is knowing how to use a 3D modeling program well, and knowing how to 3D print patterns.
I know 3D modeling and pattern making very well, and I know how to 3D print patterns and core boxes.
So for me, it is just a lack of time that is preventing me from recreating some of these great engines in a kit form.
I use photos of original engines to develop my 3D models and 2D drawings, to avoid any conflict of interest as far as existing kits.
It seems that casting your own kits is the only affordable way forward, if you want a Ball Hopper Monitor, or a 1/2 Olds, or something like that.
The list of casting kit companies seems to be shrinking more and more every day.
Make your own is all I can say. It can be done; I have proof.
.
Things are dicy post-pandemic, and the supply chain distruptions have made it very difficult to buy some types of equipment.
Inflation is rampant, and so material costs are unpredictable.
A buddy of mine is talking about quitting his job with a 1st rate company, and running a foundry full time.
I told him "Don't quit your day job", but his is going to do it.
Best of luck to him, but the odds are stacked against him, especially these days.
The economic climate these days is dramatically different than 2019.
I survived 2008/2009, but it was not fun. These days, I try to make myself "recession-proof", by keeping costs as low as possible.
If I started a casting kit company, it would be after I retired (I still work full time, like 70 hrs per week on average).
And it would be with the understanding that it would be on a hobby level, and not a "for-profit" thing.
Instead of trying to mass produce casting kits, I would use limited production, and make say 10 kits for each engine type, and that would be it.
They would not be cheap kits, but they would definitely be superb kits like none other (that is the goal anyway).
As I told someone yesterday, for the amount of money they are asking for that one set of patterns/drawings/castings, I could buy a new copy of Solidworks, buy the latest large format Prusa printer, build a very nice iron foundry with all the accessories, molding sand, and still have some money left over.
The trick is knowing how to use a 3D modeling program well, and knowing how to 3D print patterns.
I know 3D modeling and pattern making very well, and I know how to 3D print patterns and core boxes.
So for me, it is just a lack of time that is preventing me from recreating some of these great engines in a kit form.
I use photos of original engines to develop my 3D models and 2D drawings, to avoid any conflict of interest as far as existing kits.
It seems that casting your own kits is the only affordable way forward, if you want a Ball Hopper Monitor, or a 1/2 Olds, or something like that.
The list of casting kit companies seems to be shrinking more and more every day.
Make your own is all I can say. It can be done; I have proof.
.
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Ohh i just clicked the ebay link, that is a big asking price! Looks like it comes with a fer bit but you would realy need to shift some kits to make any profit.
I totaly agree i think i could design and make the patterns for a lot less with cad and 3d printing.
I often make odd obsolete parts for old cars, last one a bearing housing, i charged less than £100 for cad modeling, 3d printed, made into a match plate, sand, fill, paint, cast, packaged and posted. That was about 6 shop hours. The customer did supply the metal for that.
I totaly agree i think i could design and make the patterns for a lot less with cad and 3d printing.
I often make odd obsolete parts for old cars, last one a bearing housing, i charged less than £100 for cad modeling, 3d printed, made into a match plate, sand, fill, paint, cast, packaged and posted. That was about 6 shop hours. The customer did supply the metal for that.
One guy on another forum who use to run a casting kit company said something like "that must be a typo".
Move the decimal place over one or two places and you may have a chance to make some money.
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Move the decimal place over one or two places and you may have a chance to make some money.
.
Still here. Caught Covid and it's got me down. I haven't contacted the seller at all as I'm looking at these discussions as a feasibility study. What I've got so far centers on the foundry. First, finding one to do the work at all and then doing it at a acceptable price. My terminolgy sucks here but it sounds like the patterns must be mounted a backer board suitable for their flasks if not, can the patterns be removed and moved to a more suitable board? It sounds like the amount made will depend on their minimum order and how much money you want to tie up. Second is the other stock. Any truly specialty part must be sourced of course but how do you feel about a kit of castings and a material list to source the other metal yourself? There is a company in England that does that as an option to save money not only on the kit but on shipping as well. This is probably an exercise in futility as I haven't talked to the owner and his price looks to be in dream land but you never know and I REALLY hate to see these patterns go in the burn barrel. Bob
I looked into getting some castings for the blower housing for the little demon V8. The only way to get the price down was to make a match plate with about 20 pieces. Pouring 20 at a time was the key. With the patterns producing 1 at a time the cost will be very high. The only way to make money in a one off situation is to be pouring them in your own foundry in your own shop. At the price being asked I doubt you could ever make your money back if having them poured professionally. The demand just isn't there anymore and with cnc machines getting more and more popular the need for castings has and will continue to decline.
Even if you got them free you would still have to lay out big money to stock your shelves and it could be years before breaking even unless there were adequate pre-orders.
I have met both Doug's and think they are good guys and straight shooters and dont want to rain on there parade but for what they are asking I can't see a viable way to make it a business. If someone is interested in saving a piece of history then make an offer.
Other than all that I have nothing to say! LOL
Even if you got them free you would still have to lay out big money to stock your shelves and it could be years before breaking even unless there were adequate pre-orders.
I have met both Doug's and think they are good guys and straight shooters and dont want to rain on there parade but for what they are asking I can't see a viable way to make it a business. If someone is interested in saving a piece of history then make an offer.
Other than all that I have nothing to say! LOL
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As someone who pours castings every week, it looks to me like they are trying to extract all the profit they never made for years of work. Whoever buys the stuff at that price will find they will never make a profit either. $2500 or thereabouts would be a decent price for that lot, plus maybe $1000 for the rights to the drawings. But before I paid that price, I would want to know just how many kits they sell per year of each model. I bet it is less than 10 per year for any of the listed kits, and the numbers will probably shrink over the next few years as the hard-core modelers die off from old age.
If you are going to design and build a model engine, you better do it because you like the engine and WANT TO DO IT, because you will NEVER make any money from it. If it becomes a REALLY popular kit, you may avoid losing lots of money with it. If you want to make a million dollars in the kit casting business, then the easiest way is to start with $5 million, and work at it for 5 years. If you are REALLY careful, and work your ass off, you will still have $1 million left at the end of it.
With 3D printing and CAD design, you could reproduce those patterns for a LOT less than $25,000. In most cases, you can make just one pattern, and then duplicate it in resin as many times as you need.
If you are going to design and build a model engine, you better do it because you like the engine and WANT TO DO IT, because you will NEVER make any money from it. If it becomes a REALLY popular kit, you may avoid losing lots of money with it. If you want to make a million dollars in the kit casting business, then the easiest way is to start with $5 million, and work at it for 5 years. If you are REALLY careful, and work your ass off, you will still have $1 million left at the end of it.
With 3D printing and CAD design, you could reproduce those patterns for a LOT less than $25,000. In most cases, you can make just one pattern, and then duplicate it in resin as many times as you need.
About 2.5 years ago, I asked two my friends - they have a foundry - about casting a few engine models, they offered a fairly reasonable price if casting about > 20 sets. I will contact them when I am actually involved in casting and selling the casting set.
An engine built from casting it has its own nice beauty , and good things like time saving, ....
At the price of 24,000 US dollars , it is really too high for anyone to buy .
An engine built from casting it has its own nice beauty , and good things like time saving, ....
At the price of 24,000 US dollars , it is really too high for anyone to buy .
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He may as well just round his number up to the nearest $1,000,000.00.
He would get the same number of bids (zero).
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He would get the same number of bids (zero).
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I am frequently amazed at what some folks think that their things are worth. I look at Craigslist and Facebook market place from time to time. Occasionally a good price comes up but frequently the price is just wildly out of line. Folks are trying to sell Harbor Freight tools at 50% more than they can buy direct. Frequently they do not even know the proper name for the item. Some folks are trying to sell things from some estate and they have no idea what the item is or what the market price should be so they look up an item and try to sell a used item for 10% under list price. The rule of thumb has always been used items should sell for 50% of new.
Having the tools is one thing, but then you have to deal with the amount of heat energy and time required to melt metal. That's why I think it's good to support vendors here. CNC'd parts have no soul and are the new plastic. 
. Nothing beats the challenge, look, and feel of a machined cast part. I think people will pay more for them in the future, but for now we're in a transition in history where castings are still around and taken for granted. I'm already seeing the day coming where there will be lawn mower clubs rebuilding old engines no longer allowed to be sold.
. Nothing beats the challenge, look, and feel of a machined cast part. I think people will pay more for them in the future, but for now we're in a transition in history where castings are still around and taken for granted. I'm already seeing the day coming where there will be lawn mower clubs rebuilding old engines no longer allowed to be sold.
People need to create "casting clubs", sort of like maker-spaces for people who want to make their own patterns and castings.
Edit: This is basically what the "art-iron" folks do. The drive in from various places to where someone has a cupola, and then make molds and pour iron for two or three days straight, to create their artwork. I would not use a cupola though; those things are big, messy, and very labor intensive. An oil-fired crucible furnace is the only way to fly, for hobby work.
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Edit: This is basically what the "art-iron" folks do. The drive in from various places to where someone has a cupola, and then make molds and pour iron for two or three days straight, to create their artwork. I would not use a cupola though; those things are big, messy, and very labor intensive. An oil-fired crucible furnace is the only way to fly, for hobby work.
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But what about castings from CNC or 3D printed patterns, do they have any soul? certainly can still have all the faults and problems you find on other castings. I'm enjoying machining some castings from my CNC cut patterns but equally happy to CNC cut parts from solid that you would be hard pushed to tell if they were cast or not once painted.
As I said on another forum where this is being discussed the Woodpecker kit used to sell for about $400. So lets be generous and say it would cost you $300 to have parts cast, print out drawings and all the other overheads that means you could make $100 gross profit. But at the asking price you would have to sell 240 kits to cover the capital outlay before you could say that $100 becomes net profit and that simply is not going to happen.
I don't think Doug even produced any castings from some of those patterns he bought up. For example the little VJ Monitor he go 3 or 4 kits worth of castings when he bought up the rights and that was all he sold, one of which I bought so he would not even be able to say what they sold like.
So is this an original engine, one from a set of castings or barstock?
As I said on another forum where this is being discussed the Woodpecker kit used to sell for about $400. So lets be generous and say it would cost you $300 to have parts cast, print out drawings and all the other overheads that means you could make $100 gross profit. But at the asking price you would have to sell 240 kits to cover the capital outlay before you could say that $100 becomes net profit and that simply is not going to happen.
I don't think Doug even produced any castings from some of those patterns he bought up. For example the little VJ Monitor he go 3 or 4 kits worth of castings when he bought up the rights and that was all he sold, one of which I bought so he would not even be able to say what they sold like.
So is this an original engine, one from a set of castings or barstock?
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Paul Jacobs, back in the 1980's produced several steam engine designs that were basically silver-soldered structurally., and then wiped with soft solder to round fillets and give a casting look. His designs are VERY pretty, and you could not tell they were not made from castings. So such a thing is possible. It's just a different kind of work you have to do.
Also, look at the engine designs for the a "NASH 25", by Doug Kelley It is all silver-soldered, and looks like it was cast.
'
Also, look at the engine designs for the a "NASH 25", by Doug Kelley It is all silver-soldered, and looks like it was cast.
'
JasonB-
Nice engine there.
I would guess not a cast engine, but about as close as one can get.
The only reason I guess "not cast" is lack of parting lines.
I could be wrong though, LOL, hard to tell actually.
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Nice engine there.
I would guess not a cast engine, but about as close as one can get.
The only reason I guess "not cast" is lack of parting lines.
I could be wrong though, LOL, hard to tell actually.
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Absolutely! I do almost everything in 3D before casting or machining. Just a little tongue-in-cheek.
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