Black Widow V8 difficulty?
- Thread starter neil_1821
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As I understand it, nobody has asked any questions about the Challenger engine, who designed it, or who owns the copyright to it.
The claim was made by a member here that he owns the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, or something to that effect.
Here are his exact words, so I don't misquote.
I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated.
Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966
Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.
Posted by Member "casted".
Gary Martin said that he purchased the patterns and drawings for the Black Widow V8 from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
Gary Martin and our unknown member can't both own the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, so that is what we need to clarify.
If someone is the copyright holder for the Challenger engine, how does that also confer copyright ownership of the Black Widow?
Just trying to get clarification of exactly what we are dealing with here.
Please explain the situation.
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The claim was made by a member here that he owns the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, or something to that effect.
Here are his exact words, so I don't misquote.
I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated.
Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966
Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.
Posted by Member "casted".
Gary Martin said that he purchased the patterns and drawings for the Black Widow V8 from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
Gary Martin and our unknown member can't both own the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, so that is what we need to clarify.
If someone is the copyright holder for the Challenger engine, how does that also confer copyright ownership of the Black Widow?
Just trying to get clarification of exactly what we are dealing with here.
Please explain the situation.
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The Blackwidow was an improved Challenger so it has it's roots in that first design.
A bit like your 4HP hopper being an improved version of the PMD, you have used the PMD drawings for some details.
A bit like your 4HP hopper being an improved version of the PMD, you have used the PMD drawings for some details.
I have seen the PMD drawings, but all the details/3D models of my Ball Hopper Monitor come directly from photos either by Barney Kedrowski, or photos from Facebook, or from the Baker brochure, so your assumption is false.
My design has nothing to do with the PMD design; it is not an improved version of the PMD, it is an accurate representation of a full sized 4hp engine.
The PMD drawings are inaccurate in many ways to the original 4hp engine; even the sparkplug location, which is easily seen in photos of a 4hp engine, is shown in the wrong location on the PMD drawings.
I can print out my drawings and lay them next to the PMD drawings, and you can see that there is nothing in my drawings that has been taken from the PMD drawings.
My drawings are original, created entirely by me from photos and factory information, are unique to the world, and are visually accurate to the original engine (with the exception of perhaps the connecting rod end cap, which I modified to my design).
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The question is "How do you claim copyright on the Black Widow engine?
The photo you posted contains information about the Challenger, but I don't see any reference to the Black Widow.
I am turning the issues raised in this thread over to the Owner of this site.
I had hoped to get a simple clarification about the Black Widow, but I can see that this is not going to happen.
This is not anything I can resolve.
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The photo you posted contains information about the Challenger, but I don't see any reference to the Black Widow.
I am turning the issues raised in this thread over to the Owner of this site.
I had hoped to get a simple clarification about the Black Widow, but I can see that this is not going to happen.
This is not anything I can resolve.
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The Dake was an improved Roots design, or so it would seem by comparing the Roots patent with the Dake patent.
Dake got a separate patent for his engine, even though it is almost identical to the Roots patent.
Two patents; two engines; almost identical.
Patents owned by two separate entities.
The automobile had its roots in a motorcycle, because they both have wheels and a motor, and are powered vehicles, right, but that does not mean the person who patented the motorcycle owns the patent for automobiles.
You are reading something into it that is not based on patent law in my opinion.
An important patent claim concerning the Black Widow V8 engine has been made by two different people.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but it sure would be nice to get some real clarification for all involved with the Black Widow engine and associated drawings, which is what this thread is about.
Gary Martin has stated:
1. What the name of the individuals is that he purchased the Black Widow patterns and drawings from.
2. When he purchased those items.
3. Where he purchased those items.
4. What his name is (Gary Martin).
If someone else is also claiming copyrights to the Black Widow V8 engine, can you also provide the same information that Gary Martin has provided, so that we can compare information ?
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Pat how does patent come into it, neither model engine is patented so no patent claim.
At best it's copyright but more likely as the BW has a lot of differences just a bit of credit given to the original Challenger designer may be all that can be expected.
Even then the others in this thread are only talking of making some drawings for themselves to check and sort any errors, have not seen any mention of publishing these drawings or making another kit.
Bit like a Bernay, there are drawings out there where every part is different ( though not a smuch as the BW) but the originator of a previous design wanted credit.
At best it's copyright but more likely as the BW has a lot of differences just a bit of credit given to the original Challenger designer may be all that can be expected.
Even then the others in this thread are only talking of making some drawings for themselves to check and sort any errors, have not seen any mention of publishing these drawings or making another kit.
Bit like a Bernay, there are drawings out there where every part is different ( though not a smuch as the BW) but the originator of a previous design wanted credit.
The title of this thread is "Black Widow V8 difficulty".
Cessnadriver posted the above about making his own cad drawings.
Member "casted" appears to be saying that the members here cannot make their own cad drawings for the Black Widow, because somehow he owns those copyrights by virtue of the Challenger engine copyright ?
Gary Martin says that he purchased and owns the patterns and drawings for the Black Widow, and does not have problems with someone making cad drawings.
If "casted" is going to tell the members here what they can and cannot do with cad drawings for a Black Widow design that is owned by Gary Martin, then he needs to explain this clearly, so that we may all understand what the situation is.
I have not seen anything posted by "casted" that allows verification of his claim that "all rights for the black widow are from this (Challenger) engine and were violated. Gary martian (Martin) does not have the rights...".
These are some serious accusations that need to be backup with with clear documentation.
This can affect a number of people on and off this forum from a copyright standpoint.
Note that 3rd party opinions expressed here are meaningless; we need the factual information regarding copyright ownership of the Black Widow engine directly from the person who is claiming ownership of this material.
If you (casted) are challenging Gary Martin's ownership of the Black Widow engine, we need clear documentation showing your ownership of the copyrights for the Black Widow engine.
If you think the Black Widow engine is the Challenger engine, you need to clearly explain that too.
I don't care who owns the copyrights to what, I just want to understand the situation, and I want a clear explanation so that we can all understand, and we can all operate off the same page.
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Guys.
Does it matter.
Who wants drawings that don't work or castings that don't fit the drawings.
If someone is willing to spend so much time and effort so we all gain.
My answer would be "So, sue me!"
Graham
Does it matter.
Who wants drawings that don't work or castings that don't fit the drawings.
If someone is willing to spend so much time and effort so we all gain.
My answer would be "So, sue me!"
Graham
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The first V8 engine was patented by Leon Levavasseur in 1902. Henry Ford patented changes and processes involved in making his first V8 engine. Chevrolet never patented their V8 engine. What I'm getting at is the V8 engine is a configuration so as long as your making a V8 engine,drawings and castings that aren't the same as the Challenger or Black Widow then that design would then become your own. From what I've seen of the castings that were originally produced they're not much more than lumps of aluminum basically representing the original design of the engine. I built my flathead V8 engine with a Cadillac designed exhaust, the same as the Challenger, so did the original designer of the Challenger pay Cadillac for using it's design. Clearer minds can see where I'm going with this. Just don't take the ordinal drawings, no matter how terrible they are and replicate them verbatim. Make changes to all the components and name it your own.
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It is a matter of uniformly applying copyright laws to all the model engines that have been offered for sale past and present, and built by members here, not just one or two V8 kit engines.
Do we allow an unidentified person join here and then claim copyright over all the kits members here have built, or do we follow some sort of formal rules concerning copyright protection, so that we don't generate chaos with claims and counterclaims that cannot be substantiated ?
I have kits that include the Breish Olds, the Galloway, etc. with the drawings that were sold with those engines.
Can someone claim ownership of those items, and then I no longer own the items I purchased, or I can't use the drawings ?
I paid a substantial amount of money for these two models and the associated drawings.
It seems like we need to establish some ground rules, before things get completely out of hand.
We need a stable and predictable place where we can practice our hobby.
If someone here purchases a casting kit and drawings from anyone/anywhere, there needs to be certainty about who owns the copyright to that material.
Is there any reason why someone can't just plainly state what copyright claims are being made on which engine, so that we can all have that knowledge, and thus avoid any problems ?
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Do we allow an unidentified person join here and then claim copyright over all the kits members here have built, or do we follow some sort of formal rules concerning copyright protection, so that we don't generate chaos with claims and counterclaims that cannot be substantiated ?
I have kits that include the Breish Olds, the Galloway, etc. with the drawings that were sold with those engines.
Can someone claim ownership of those items, and then I no longer own the items I purchased, or I can't use the drawings ?
I paid a substantial amount of money for these two models and the associated drawings.
It seems like we need to establish some ground rules, before things get completely out of hand.
We need a stable and predictable place where we can practice our hobby.
If someone here purchases a casting kit and drawings from anyone/anywhere, there needs to be certainty about who owns the copyright to that material.
Is there any reason why someone can't just plainly state what copyright claims are being made on which engine, so that we can all have that knowledge, and thus avoid any problems ?
.
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The Bay Area Engine Modelers Club documented much about the development and member builds of the Black Widow in their monthly news letter spanning more than a decade. Both Dwight Giles and Ken Hurst were members and active in club leadership. In the May 2023 news letter they documented the availability of the castings and plans through Gary Martin. Given that Dwight and Ken were part of this, it would infer that at minimum Gary has permission, but more likely full ownership.
I think George is correct in the way to view this project. I purchased the castings and plans from Gary and have CAD modeled “my version” of the engine. I would call the plans more of a general layout, with builder decisions needing to be made. From my perspective the casting will support a successful build of the engine.
I think the problem with the Black Widow stems from expectations.
If you believe the plans should be a step-by-step instruction, the builder will be disappointed. If you’re looking for a project that requires your additions and willingness study and make plan modifications, it will be a rewarding project.
John
I think George is correct in the way to view this project. I purchased the castings and plans from Gary and have CAD modeled “my version” of the engine. I would call the plans more of a general layout, with builder decisions needing to be made. From my perspective the casting will support a successful build of the engine.
I think the problem with the Black Widow stems from expectations.
If you believe the plans should be a step-by-step instruction, the builder will be disappointed. If you’re looking for a project that requires your additions and willingness study and make plan modifications, it will be a rewarding project.
John
IC-Man is spot on! If "casted" isn't happy for all the reasons above then let him engage a suitable attorney and let the attorney sent a letter stating the issues. From the discussion I don't see that "casted" has lost anything so there is no real claim. The whole situation is almost a scam and in my view should just be ignored!
The copyright for the Black Widow drawings was owned by Ken Hurst who designed the engine as a derivative of the Challenger. Those types of modifications are clearly legal and the Challenger 'owner' has no right to them.
I just had a long talk with Dwight Giles about the 'ownership' of the Black Widow.
I first saw the initial castings and patterns of the Black Widow in the foundry owned by John Vlavianos quite a while ago. Where John got the original idea is anybody's guess as he has been gone for maybe as long as 20 years. His widow gave ownership, the castings, patterns, and preliminary drawings to Ken Hurst and Dwight Giles in return for a finished and running Black Widow engine. That did occur.
Ken Hurst revised the drawings to accurately reflect the casting sets and he and Dwight proceeded to build three Black Widows, one of which you may have seen in my magazine, Model Engine Builder.
They then decided to have ten casting sets poured in a foundry in Oakland, CA, which I visited with Ken and Dwight.
They ultimately sold 10 casting sets to a fellow who paid a college instructor to redraw everything, a job he botched and then died before cleaning up the mess. I have a set of those files somewhere and they are mystery meat!
Ken and Dwight had 10 more casting sets made before the foundry was closed.
The Black Widow design is a great departure from the Challenger as the Challenger design was marginal for the power output of the Black Widow. The internal layout was improved by Dwight before having the design cast the first time.
Derivative designs do not belong to the previous owner. And the Black Widow is a serious departure from the Challenger design. The oil pump was designed by Paul Knapp, best known as the provider of the Rimfire spark plugs and a fine modeler himself.
Gary Martin now owns the design.
I first saw the initial castings and patterns of the Black Widow in the foundry owned by John Vlavianos quite a while ago. Where John got the original idea is anybody's guess as he has been gone for maybe as long as 20 years. His widow gave ownership, the castings, patterns, and preliminary drawings to Ken Hurst and Dwight Giles in return for a finished and running Black Widow engine. That did occur.
Ken Hurst revised the drawings to accurately reflect the casting sets and he and Dwight proceeded to build three Black Widows, one of which you may have seen in my magazine, Model Engine Builder.
They then decided to have ten casting sets poured in a foundry in Oakland, CA, which I visited with Ken and Dwight.
They ultimately sold 10 casting sets to a fellow who paid a college instructor to redraw everything, a job he botched and then died before cleaning up the mess. I have a set of those files somewhere and they are mystery meat!
Ken and Dwight had 10 more casting sets made before the foundry was closed.
The Black Widow design is a great departure from the Challenger as the Challenger design was marginal for the power output of the Black Widow. The internal layout was improved by Dwight before having the design cast the first time.
Derivative designs do not belong to the previous owner. And the Black Widow is a serious departure from the Challenger design. The oil pump was designed by Paul Knapp, best known as the provider of the Rimfire spark plugs and a fine modeler himself.
Gary Martin now owns the design.
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When we buy a casting set or just a set of drawings, we have ownership of the material on which the information is located, we do not own the intellectual property itself. We can use the product ourselves or give the entire property to someone else with no violation. What we cannot do is let other people borrow the information for their use. They need to acquire it in a legal matter.
Anyone notice the letter "casted" posted only assigned the rights for the V8 kit instructions as created by Lancer Engineering? And that those instructions appear to be for the Challenger?" No mention of terms, amount(s) paid, notary stamps, or receipts. No mention of drawings, patents, or patterns. Who would bother to get the rights to an instruction booklet 60 years (April of 2023? Really? WHY?) after the fact anyhow, unless there is some belief it will let him cause a problem for someone. Sure not going to make money from selling the booklet for an earlier obsolete design when far better documentation for better engines exists in Model Engine Builder and SIC for those lucky enough to have a full set.
It's interesting this guy doesn't want anyone to know who he is, with a business card covering his information on the letter. Given the Mr. Damotte sold the project to Coles, Emile Damotte doesn't own the rights to sell or give away in any event unless the Lancer instruction manuals were specifically excluded from the sale to Coles. If "casted" bought the residuals of Coles he might have whatever rights Coles had, but then why would he keep it all in secret squirrel mode or need separate rights to the booklet? My guess is if Coles reopened we would all try to get orders in and delivered before the new owners gave up on it as a far too unprofitable labor of love.
Entire mess smells of confusion and claims that just don't add up. All over an engine that few if any want to build when so many better options exist for those up to building a V8 or other projects of such complexity.
It's interesting this guy doesn't want anyone to know who he is, with a business card covering his information on the letter. Given the Mr. Damotte sold the project to Coles, Emile Damotte doesn't own the rights to sell or give away in any event unless the Lancer instruction manuals were specifically excluded from the sale to Coles. If "casted" bought the residuals of Coles he might have whatever rights Coles had, but then why would he keep it all in secret squirrel mode or need separate rights to the booklet? My guess is if Coles reopened we would all try to get orders in and delivered before the new owners gave up on it as a far too unprofitable labor of love.
Entire mess smells of confusion and claims that just don't add up. All over an engine that few if any want to build when so many better options exist for those up to building a V8 or other projects of such complexity.
Richard Hed
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Ah, but it is easy to prove that one designed an engine when it is presented HERE as an original. It has a date and it has thousands of witnesses. The onley thing is, is it truely an original design? That is, could it have been copied from someone elses design? In the 60s, remember, there were two fellows who came up with a design for the first laser. The guy with the NAPKIN design from a restaurant won the lawsuit. The two guys partnered up in the end. A-OK.
