Black Widow V8 difficulty?

[GreenTwin]

And some more information that was posted in a model engine newsleter (attached):

 

[GreenTwin]

As I understand it, nobody has asked any questions about the Challenger engine, who designed it, or who owns the copyright to it.

The claim was made by a member here that he owns the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, or something to that effect.
Here are his exact words, so I don't misquote.

I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated.
Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966
Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.
Posted by Member "casted".

Gary Martin said that he purchased the patterns and drawings for the Black Widow V8 from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.

Gary Martin and our unknown member can't both own the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, so that is what we need to clarify.

If someone is the copyright holder for the Challenger engine, how does that also confer copyright ownership of the Black Widow?
Just trying to get clarification of exactly what we are dealing with here.
Please explain the situation.
.

 

[Jasonb]

The Blackwidow was an improved Challenger so it has it's roots in that first design.

A bit like your 4HP hopper being an improved version of the PMD, you have used the PMD drawings for some details.

 

[GreenTwin]

A bit like your 4HP hopper being an improved version of the PMD, you have used the PMD drawings for some details.

I have seen the PMD drawings, but all the details/3D models of my Ball Hopper Monitor come directly from photos either by Barney Kedrowski, or photos from Facebook, or from the Baker brochure, so your assumption is false.

My design has nothing to do with the PMD design; it is not an improved version of the PMD, it is an accurate representation of a full sized 4hp engine.
The PMD drawings are inaccurate in many ways to the original 4hp engine; even the sparkplug location, which is easily seen in photos of a 4hp engine, is shown in the wrong location on the PMD drawings.

I can print out my drawings and lay them next to the PMD drawings, and you can see that there is nothing in my drawings that has been taken from the PMD drawings.
My drawings are original, created entirely by me from photos and factory information, are unique to the world, and are visually accurate to the original engine (with the exception of perhaps the connecting rod end cap, which I modified to my design).
.

 

[mrehmus]

Gary Martin purchased the patterns and drawings for the "Black Widow V8" from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
So I guess some explanation is needed about why that does not give Gary Martin the copyright for the Black Widow ?

I don't know how to resolve this with an unknown party "casted".
There is no way to even verify who this is, much less verify the copyright claims being made.

Please offer something more to clarify the situation, other than just the statement "I own the Black Widow copyright".

Given that Gary Martin is also claiming the Black Widow V8 copyrights, I think it is reasonable to ask for clarification and information so that this item can be resolved one way or the other.

.

 

[casted]

Some information about the Challenger (not about the Black Widow) is located here:

.https://www.flickr.com/photos/15794235@N06/10822272464/.

Says the copyrights were purchased by Coles Power Models.

The First Challenger V8, mid 1960s​

Machinist Alfred Bachtold began making this engine, but needed help to complete it. He formed a loose partnership with pattern maker Clayton Thoms and designer Mr. Dettrick (first name unknown). Half-way through the project, the three men disagreed on how they would share profits from engine sales, so the partnership ended. Bachtold bought out the other two, and gave the prototype to Thoms.

The prototype is made of castings from the head down that remained part of the final design. The top end parts were machined by Bachtold from solid aluminum. The timing gear cover has the letters T/B cast into it, denoting Thoms and Bachtold.

In 1968, Lancer Engineering purchased the patterns and tooling from Bachtold. Lancer completed the patterns for the head, intake and exhaust manifolds and began to sell casting kits for the engine. A few years later the rights were purchased by Coles Power Models in Ventura California where the kits were sold until they went out of business in 2017.