Black Widow V8 difficulty?

[GreenTwin]

And some more information that was posted in a model engine newsleter (attached):

 

[GreenTwin]

As I understand it, nobody has asked any questions about the Challenger engine, who designed it, or who owns the copyright to it.

The claim was made by a member here that he owns the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, or something to that effect.
Here are his exact words, so I don't misquote.

I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated.
Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966
Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.
Posted by Member "casted".

Gary Martin said that he purchased the patterns and drawings for the Black Widow V8 from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.

Gary Martin and our unknown member can't both own the copyrights to the Black Widow V8, so that is what we need to clarify.

If someone is the copyright holder for the Challenger engine, how does that also confer copyright ownership of the Black Widow?
Just trying to get clarification of exactly what we are dealing with here.
Please explain the situation.
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[Jasonb]

The Blackwidow was an improved Challenger so it has it's roots in that first design.

A bit like your 4HP hopper being an improved version of the PMD, you have used the PMD drawings for some details.

 

[GreenTwin]

A bit like your 4HP hopper being an improved version of the PMD, you have used the PMD drawings for some details.

I have seen the PMD drawings, but all the details/3D models of my Ball Hopper Monitor come directly from photos either by Barney Kedrowski, or photos from Facebook, or from the Baker brochure, so your assumption is false.

My design has nothing to do with the PMD design; it is not an improved version of the PMD, it is an accurate representation of a full sized 4hp engine.
The PMD drawings are inaccurate in many ways to the original 4hp engine; even the sparkplug location, which is easily seen in photos of a 4hp engine, is shown in the wrong location on the PMD drawings.

I can print out my drawings and lay them next to the PMD drawings, and you can see that there is nothing in my drawings that has been taken from the PMD drawings.
My drawings are original, created entirely by me from photos and factory information, are unique to the world, and are visually accurate to the original engine (with the exception of perhaps the connecting rod end cap, which I modified to my design).
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[mrehmus]

Gary Martin purchased the patterns and drawings for the "Black Widow V8" from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
So I guess some explanation is needed about why that does not give Gary Martin the copyright for the Black Widow ?

I don't know how to resolve this with an unknown party "casted".
There is no way to even verify who this is, much less verify the copyright claims being made.

Please offer something more to clarify the situation, other than just the statement "I own the Black Widow copyright".

Given that Gary Martin is also claiming the Black Widow V8 copyrights, I think it is reasonable to ask for clarification and information so that this item can be resolved one way or the other.

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[casted]

Some information about the Challenger (not about the Black Widow) is located here:

.https://www.flickr.com/photos/15794235@N06/10822272464/.

Says the copyrights were purchased by Coles Power Models.

The First Challenger V8, mid 1960s​

Machinist Alfred Bachtold began making this engine, but needed help to complete it. He formed a loose partnership with pattern maker Clayton Thoms and designer Mr. Dettrick (first name unknown). Half-way through the project, the three men disagreed on how they would share profits from engine sales, so the partnership ended. Bachtold bought out the other two, and gave the prototype to Thoms.

The prototype is made of castings from the head down that remained part of the final design. The top end parts were machined by Bachtold from solid aluminum. The timing gear cover has the letters T/B cast into it, denoting Thoms and Bachtold.

In 1968, Lancer Engineering purchased the patterns and tooling from Bachtold. Lancer completed the patterns for the head, intake and exhaust manifolds and began to sell casting kits for the engine. A few years later the rights were purchased by Coles Power Models in Ventura California where the kits were sold until they went out of business in 2017.

 

[GreenTwin]

The question is "How do you claim copyright on the Black Widow engine?
The photo you posted contains information about the Challenger, but I don't see any reference to the Black Widow.

I am turning the issues raised in this thread over to the Owner of this site.
I had hoped to get a simple clarification about the Black Widow, but I can see that this is not going to happen.
This is not anything I can resolve.
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[GreenTwin]

The Blackwidow was an improved Challenger so it has it's roots in that first design.

The Dake was an improved Roots design, or so it would seem by comparing the Roots patent with the Dake patent.
Dake got a separate patent for his engine, even though it is almost identical to the Roots patent.
Two patents; two engines; almost identical.
Patents owned by two separate entities.

The automobile had its roots in a motorcycle, because they both have wheels and a motor, and are powered vehicles, right, but that does not mean the person who patented the motorcycle owns the patent for automobiles.
You are reading something into it that is not based on patent law in my opinion.

An important patent claim concerning the Black Widow V8 engine has been made by two different people.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but it sure would be nice to get some real clarification for all involved with the Black Widow engine and associated drawings, which is what this thread is about.

Gary Martin has stated:
1. What the name of the individuals is that he purchased the Black Widow patterns and drawings from.
2. When he purchased those items.
3. Where he purchased those items.
4. What his name is (Gary Martin).

If someone else is also claiming copyrights to the Black Widow V8 engine, can you also provide the same information that Gary Martin has provided, so that we can compare information ?
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[Jasonb]

Pat how does patent come into it, neither model engine is patented so no patent claim.

At best it's copyright but more likely as the BW has a lot of differences just a bit of credit given to the original Challenger designer may be all that can be expected.

Even then the others in this thread are only talking of making some drawings for themselves to check and sort any errors, have not seen any mention of publishing these drawings or making another kit.

Bit like a Bernay, there are drawings out there where every part is different ( though not a smuch as the BW) but the originator of a previous design wanted credit.

 

[GreenTwin]

I am working on my own cad drawings. I am starting on the block here shortly and work on drawings for the missing items. I was given a phone number for one of the original designers and I have yet to call him. I have been too busy with my full time job. There are more in the same boat so maybe between us all we can get this completed. ....... Mark

The title of this thread is "Black Widow V8 difficulty".

Cessnadriver posted the above about making his own cad drawings.

I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated. Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966

Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.

Member "casted" appears to be saying that the members here cannot make their own cad drawings for the Black Widow, because somehow he owns those copyrights by virtue of the Challenger engine copyright ?

Gary Martin says that he purchased and owns the patterns and drawings for the Black Widow, and does not have problems with someone making cad drawings.

If "casted" is going to tell the members here what they can and cannot do with cad drawings for a Black Widow design that is owned by Gary Martin, then he needs to explain this clearly, so that we may all understand what the situation is.

I have not seen anything posted by "casted" that allows verification of his claim that "all rights for the black widow are from this (Challenger) engine and were violated. Gary martian (Martin) does not have the rights...".
These are some serious accusations that need to be backup with with clear documentation.
This can affect a number of people on and off this forum from a copyright standpoint.

Note that 3rd party opinions expressed here are meaningless; we need the factual information regarding copyright ownership of the Black Widow engine directly from the person who is claiming ownership of this material.

If you (casted) are challenging Gary Martin's ownership of the Black Widow engine, we need clear documentation showing your ownership of the copyrights for the Black Widow engine.
If you think the Black Widow engine is the Challenger engine, you need to clearly explain that too.

I don't care who owns the copyrights to what, I just want to understand the situation, and I want a clear explanation so that we can all understand, and we can all operate off the same page.
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