Setting up Shop Questions - from an NZ learner

[DJP]

I know that you are using a new blade but check that the teeth on both sides have equal bite. I get this symptom when the blade is due for replacement.

I doubt that a little out of square should stop your wedding project. I have found it best to tack weld two pieces together with one tack then using a square and hammer make the parts alignment perfect before starting the full welding pass. I have magnets and clamps to hold pieces together but usually something goes wrong so tacking and adjusting works best for my projects. If it's really badly off position the tack is easy to break then start again. With 6013 rods there is lots of molten puddle to fill in any slight gaps.

These thoughts are assuming a general welding project like a work bench. If you are into high precision and many parts then a jig is required and after the welding process the parts need to be heated to relieve stresses before final machining. I don't do that level of work.

 

[bruedney]

It's going to be a small adjustment so will be fiddly to get right but now I have found it it's going to bug the heck out of me. I HATE tools that are not correctly aligned. :wall:

On the "fun" side I'm looking at a coolant system I found on the yahoo groups ( https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/4x6bandsaw/files ). Its nice and simple and seems pretty simple to put together. A bit of fun.

When you get both these sorted come around and sort mine out too please

:thumbup:

Bruce

 

[joco-nz]

I know that you are using a new blade but check that the teeth on both sides have equal bite. I get this symptom when the blade is due for replacement.

I doubt that a little out of square should stop your wedding project. I have found it best to tack weld two pieces together with one tack then using a square and hammer make the parts alignment perfect before starting the full welding pass. I have magnets and clamps to hold pieces together but usually something goes wrong so tacking and adjusting works best for my projects. If it's really badly off position the tack is easy to break then start again. With 6013 rods there is lots of molten puddle to fill in any slight gaps.

These thoughts are assuming a general welding project like a work bench. If you are into high precision and many parts then a jig is required and after the welding process the parts need to be heated to relieve stresses before final machining. I don't do that level of work.

Yup, a bit of gap in my welding projects isn't the end of the world. Mind you getting the skills to cover it well is a different kettle of fish. The old angle grinder and hammer got a bit of a work out today. Plus I seriously NEED to get a welding table. Trying to do this on the floor is killing my knees. I'm "too old for this >>beep<<". scratch.gif

 

[rodw]

Plus I seriously NEED to get a welding table. Trying to do this on the floor is killing my knees. I'm "too old for this >>beep<<". scratch.gif

Now you have a bandsaw and a welder there is nothing stopping you from making your own table. I got a piece of 10mm plate steel laser cut and while they were at it, I go them to cut 4 plates to mount casters to at the base of the legs and 8 triangular braces something like 100 x 100mm.Then it was up to me to cut the legs and frame from 50 x 50 mm SHS. Some advice I got at the time was to keep at least 50mm overhang past the frame to leave room for G clamps to get a grip. The other handy idea was to incorporate a receiver in the frame to slide in a vice just like you would connect a towbar tongue to the towbar on a car.

Some say the 10mm thick plate is too thin but it is fine for what I do. I figured a thicker top would mean I would not be able to lift it. There will be pics in my shed thread. Pretty sure I made it with a stick welder before I bought a MIG. Every now and again, I give it a rub with an angle grinder and rub it over with a rag dipped with MIG welding nozzle dip.

Here you go a bonus, Finished table and bandsaw table in one pic.

I just left one gusset unpainted and clamp the earth to it. I don't use the vice much but it is handy to store my welding helmet. I often remove it though!

 

[DJP]

If welding height it a problem for your first project you can attach a small vise to a wooden saw horse. Place the ground clamp on the vise and if you need special clamping a pair of Vise-grips clamped in the vice will work.

It's nice to have all the right fixtures and tools but you can get by with simple approaches. I used the saw horse for a while until a cast iron table top came along. Sometimes luck comes to those who don't rush. The table top was free and it already had a T slot cut in it. Adding legs was easy.

You seem anxious to get a lot done and setting up a shop is important. In my case the shop set up happens along the way while doing a project making it unique to my work habits and needs. Perhaps that's why it is so cluttered.

Have fun.

 

[ShopShoe]

Please excuse the intrusion, but the sharp corners on both table tops makes me worry you'll get hurt bumping into them. In my case soft tissue and Murphy have come together too often for me to ignore.

No offense intended, please ignore me if you think I'm butting in unnecessarily.

That aside, I really do like both your projects. I gotta make myself a bandsaw table or two myself, but I can't decide between steel and aluminum.

--ShopShoe

 

[rodw]

Please excuse the intrusion, but the sharp corners on both table tops makes me worry you'll get hurt bumping into them. In my case soft tissue and Murphy have come together too often for me to ignore.

No offense intended, please ignore me if you think I'm butting in unnecessarily.

That aside, I really do like both your projects. I gotta make myself a bandsaw table or two myself, but I can't decide between steel and aluminum.

--ShopShoe

No offence taken

So far so good, no injuries to report. It did not make sense to round corners when you might need them to line something up. There is a variation on the saw table that uses a hinged interim mount so the table stays on all the time and can fold up out of the road. I think steel would be better than aluminium as it is stiffer. It just sits in a drawer with stuff stacked on top while not in use.

 

[ShopShoe]

Thanks Rod

--ShopShoe

 

[joco-nz]

On the welding table front i have been humming and harring over:
(1) building one with a continuous plate top
(2) building a fixture style one ala a stronghand inspired design
(3) or buying a stronghand Nomand portable table

Still not really landed on which way to go.

Re the bandsaw table there are a number of options but this is quite a slick approach.
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/bandsaw-table-and-fence.html

So many things to do and work keeps getting in the way.

 

[joco-nz]

When you get both these sorted come around and sort mine out too please
Bruce

Its still not as good as it could be, especially having seem images of what people are able cut accuractly with these wee saws. But it is getting better. I think by the the time i have done this desk build it will okay. I have a half formed idea in my head for a jig to help accurately and repeably get the blade aligned. Problem is i need a mill to prototype/build it. Oh well, square, mark I eyeball and patience will need to suffice for a while.

The more i cut with it the more i like the idea of some coolant system. Its not necessary, but I can see how it would improve blade life which would probably pay for the simple design i plan to implement over a period of time.

Such fun. :thumbup:

Cheers,
J.

 

[joco-nz]

This weekend has been one of cutting, welding and most of all, learning.

Such as how tricky stick welding SHS with 3mm thick walls is. And how EASY it is to blow holes in it!

Anyway we got some sections of 30mmx3mm SHS mild steel cut and welded up. Not the best welding, with lots of grinding to clean things up.

One set of frames for one side of the support for a desk. There will have some 230mm long SHS spacers to join these frames into a box shape that will support one side of a wooden desk top, it is sized to have a wooden shelf at the bottom that will hold an ATX computer case. I'm keeping the joints simple. When I get my MIG gas I'll try some mitre joints. But not with stick.


Its pretty square, at least good enough for the supports of a simple desk. Not to too bad for my very first welding project ever.

 

[rodw]

On the welding table front i have been humming and harring over:
(1) building one with a continuous plate top
(2) building a fixture style one ala a stronghand inspired design
(3) or buying a stronghand Nomand portable table

Still not really landed on which way to go.

Re the bandsaw table there are a number of options but this is quite a slick approach.
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/bandsaw-table-and-fence.html

So many things to do and work keeps getting in the way.

Save your money, practice your welding and make a flat plate welding table like I did. If you need to build a jig, just tack weld it to the table top and grind it flat afterwards. At work, for a few repeating jobs, the boys have drilled and tapped holes in their welding bench to hold fixtures.

I looked at the folding bandsaw table and decided that I don't use my saw enough to bother so I can put up with swapping over the table every now and again. For a fence, just clamp a straight edge onto the table top.

There are so many people trying to take your money with shiny objects so resit temptation..

Its still not as good as it could be, especially having seem images of what people are able cut accuractly with these wee saws. But it is getting better. I think by the the time i have done this desk build it will okay. I have a half formed idea in my head for a jig to help accurately and repeably get the blade aligned. Problem is i need a mill to prototype/build it. Oh well, square, mark I eyeball and patience will need to suffice for a while.

The more i cut with it the more i like the idea of some coolant system. Its not necessary, but I can see how it would improve blade life which would probably pay for the simple design i plan to implement over a period of time.

Such fun. :thumbup:

Cheers,
J.

Now you've actually got your saw you will understand more about alignment. In my experience, bandsaw blades break before the teeth wear out. This can be due to poor blade alignment and the blade anneals(work hardens). The evidence will be in the wear marks on the blade. Therefore, Coolant is not required. Each tooth has a long time to cool before it cuts again.

To align your saw try this.

1. Remove the blade, put a straight edge against the pulleys that is long enough to rest on both sides of each pulley. Align the pulleys (hint try spacers on the idler wheel. You may need a gear puller.

2. Get a 300 mm steel rule and put it between the guide wheels and nip them up so the ruler is held in position where the blade goes.

3. With the saw down, grab a setsquare and check alignment of the back fence against the ruler. Hold the setsquare so it points upright and lift the blade up and down. Adjust the blade guides so the full flat of the ruler follows the setsqure for its full length.

4. Replace the blade and tighten it as much as you physically can. It will still be under the recommended torque.

Do some test cuts and be prepared to make final adjustments. Following pic shows me getting ready to cut my lathe stand. Mark each guide in this perfect position with witness marks if you like.

I was not happy until I had a square end and could cut a 0.5mm sliver off the RHS.

This process significantly improved my cut accuracy.

 

[rodw]

Its pretty square, at least good enough for the supports of a simple desk. Not to too bad for my very first welding project ever.
View attachment 83845

Good work, Magnetic angle brackets help. With squares and rectangles. lay on flat floor and measure the diagonals. Adjust until they are exactly equal, then tack weld, check again before welding out.

 

[DJP]

If you have a poor weld on a joint clean it up and run another bead over hit just a bit hotter. It saves a lot of grinding to have a nice weld puddle which I consider presentable for rough service items like bench legs. Sometimes grinding takes away strength if there is a small void beneath. I'm OK with a nice bead that is painted.

Function has always been more important than form for me. Probably because of a farming background where welded structures and machines were for our use only. I you are planning to make and sell bench legs, that's different.

My experience with HSS (Bi-Metal) saw blade life is that teeth do break off and that is the eventual failure point for the blade. I think that they also warp as an old blade will not cut straight and when loaded it will hop off the big blade tension wheels. Install a new blade and all the problems disappear. I agree that the blade doesn't get hot enough to justify a coolant system as my saw mostly cuts small stock. I get better results on my lathe with a bit of cutting oil so I do the same for the saw. Habit I guess.

+1 on double checking dimensions after tack welding. Measure twice weld once.

 

[joco-nz]

Good work, Magnetic angle brackets help. With squares and rectangles. lay on flat floor and measure the diagonals. Adjust until they are exactly equal, then tack weld, check again before welding out.

Cool! :thumbup:

Exactly what I did. PHEW - an old dog can be taught!

 

[joco-nz]

If you have a poor weld on a joint clean it up and run another bead over hit just a bit hotter. It saves a lot of grinding to have a nice weld puddle which I consider presentable for rough service items like bench legs. Sometimes grinding takes away strength if there is a small void beneath. I'm OK with a nice bead that is painted.

My issue has more been with trying not to blow holes in the 3mm tube. I'm using 2.4mm 6013 rods and I'm running them down at the very lower limit recommended by the manufacturer and things still get to hot. The bead runs are also only 30mm long.

As a result I have sod all time to get comfortable with the pool shape once the arch is going. Cose if I hang around too much bam - hole. Equally if I go to slow things heat up way to much which is always a risk near the end of the bead, bam - hole.

Anyway, I've had to grind to clean up my "rebuild" work and some rushed beads that started on target but wandered.

While I don't believe MIG will be a silver bullet I suspect it will allow me to control the heat a little better. Got to get ass into gear and get that argoshield.

 

[joco-nz]

Save your money, practice your welding and make a flat plate welding table like I did. If you need to build a jig, just tack weld it to the table top and grind it flat afterwards. At work, for a few repeating jobs, the boys have drilled and tapped holes in their welding bench to hold fixtures.

Ok that can work. Not sure from memory what size your table is. I've been pondering something around 800mm X 1600mm in size. That's going to be be a very heavy slab of steel. Which was partly why I had started thinking of a slat model. Just to manage the handling challenge. Or I might just have to reduce the size or do a half and half. Half plate and half slats. Hmm. Clearly some more thinking needed on this front.

Now you've actually got your saw you will understand more about alignment. In my experience, bandsaw blades break before the teeth wear out. This can be due to poor blade alignment and the blade anneals(work hardens). The evidence will be in the wear marks on the blade. Therefore, Coolant is not required. Each tooth has a long time to cool before it cuts again.

Understand that, but on the work hardening front, is that caused by heat? I'm a little new to this stuff so feel free to point me to good texts to read as re this. It's quite possible I have the book already but just not gotten to it yet.

In all honesty the coolant is as much my habit of modding stuff. But the flushing action on the cut might be useful. The parts are also a nice little proof of concept for what I can use to drive coolant on a lathe and mill.

To align your saw try this.

1. Remove the blade, put a straight edge against the pulleys that is long enough to rest on both sides of each pulley. Align the pulleys (hint try spacers on the idler wheel. You may need a gear puller..

I'm clear on the other steps. Just to make sure re #1, this alignment is about moving the pulley in/out on its axis, yes? Do you use the saw frame the pulleys are mounted on as the reference point for alignment? Or some other approach?

 

[DJP]

My issue has more been with trying not to blow holes in the 3mm tube. I'm using 2.4mm 6013 rods and I'm running them down at the very lower limit recommended by the manufacturer and things still get to hot. The bead runs are also only 30mm long.

As a result I have sod all time to get comfortable with the pool shape once the arch is going. Cose if I hang around too much bam - hole. Equally if I go to slow things heat up way to much which is always a risk near the end of the bead, bam - hole.

Anyway, I've had to grind to clean up my "rebuild" work and some rushed beads that started on target but wandered.

While I don't believe MIG will be a silver bullet I suspect it will allow me to control the heat a little better. Got to get ass into gear and get that argoshield.

This may be sacrilege to the pro welders but if you don't have smaller rods try cutting a plain steel nail the same length as your weld joint. Place the nail in the joint and this extra metal in the puddle may help prevent burn through. For really thin material I weld in little bursts. For your weld consider making 4 or 5 small weeds stopping between each to let it set. Once these tacks are in place weld over them in one pass for a nicer finish.

Smaller rods and reduced current will help but then you may need multiple passes.

One more thought... if you can weld with the joint on a slight angle so that the puddle and heat go to the corner section of the tubing where it can dissipate more heat. The thin cut edge section wont be taking too much heat this way.

My philosophy has been that even an ugly weld can have strength.

 

[DJP]

Auto spell correction is a nuisance....'weeds' should be 'welds' in my previous post.

 

[joco-nz]

This may be sacrilege to the pro welders but if you don't have smaller rods try cutting a plain steel nail the same length as your weld joint. Place the nail in the joint and this extra metal in the puddle may help prevent burn through. For really thin material I weld in little bursts. For your weld consider making 4 or 5 small weeds stopping between each to let it set. Once these tacks are in place weld over them in one pass for a nicer finish.

Smaller rods and reduced current will help but then you may need multiple passes.

One more thought... if you can weld with the joint on a slight angle so that the puddle and heat go to the corner section of the tubing where it can dissipate more heat. The thin cut edge section wont be taking too much heat this way.

My philosophy has been that even an ugly weld can have strength.

Cheers. I'll try the angle approach. I had started the multiple tack approach near the end.

Re the angle approach I wonder which way to look at it. I would think we want the weld puddle to flow into the joint from the solid metal to the tube edge? On that basis what is the correct way to orientate the joint per your comment. When I get home tonight I'll lay out a couple of configs with a rod placed, take some pics, post em and hopefully I can get some hints on which config might be better.

Cheers,
J.