Setting up Shop Questions - from an NZ learner

[joco-nz]

Right, the final alignment saga. After looking at others approaches, some pondering of my own plus some inspiration from a cool little alignment tool design I stumbled across online the following is what I did. The "Walker" method. oh:

[1] Found my little 150mm steel rule and using spring clothes line pegs clipped to the blade. The edge of the rule is sitting above where the blade teeth flare out. Using this approach we get two benefits.
[a] the pegs make it easier to see the level of twist you applying to the blade as their extra length magnifies the change.
the metal rule increases the surface area to check against a square.




After some fiddling around with twist and setting the bearing guides correctly then ensuring things are square to the fence. In this case I decided to change the fence to be square to the blade. Much easier to adjust it that way from what I can see. Then we start some test cutting. First off on some 2x2 wood. Good results.
Side A.

Side B.

Things are looking really good here. Didn't do anymore changes and went straight to testing on metal.

Test cuts on some 30x3mm SHS mild steel. Very happy with these results. This is using the stock blade that came with the saw. I did a few more cuts on this stock and continued to get good results.
Side A.

Side B.


All in all an improvement and based on what I had before definitely measurable. Before this process I had a clearly identifiable angle which I did some quick changes to correct but then still had some angle and even a slight weave in the cut. Now its really straight and square.

Cheers,
James.

 

[goldstar31]

I'm really delighted! I made my alignment jigs -from scrap and set more or less by eye. Been at it a loooooong time! But obviously, your set up is correct for you. I am one of an old brigade who does things by feel or sight.

So now, you have committed your own way to experience, for a time when you will be checking your future lathe for accuracy. I look forward to read your future exploits.

 

[rodw]

Awesome result. Now you have it cutting straight there will be no stopping you! Looks almost like a precision tool now.

I have no idea why people insist on buying chopsaws to cut steel when these are so cheap!

 

[goldstar31]

I have no idea why people insist on buying chopsaws to cut steel when these are so cheap!

Mine is or was dead cheap -almost the cost of a 6 x4 blade and cuts 'ally'
Again, I have standing circular saw for wood. Again, dead cheap and with 2 blades.

Again, my arc set was 'el cheapo' but we Limeys can buy from places like Aldi and Lidl which have yet to descend on Kiwi-land.

Sadly, you good folks seemed to be always getting ripped off- pricewise.

Personally, I think that 'we' are being ripped off as I am sort of part of the Far East community- internationally and get some quite exiting business opportunities. :hDe:

Too old at 86+

Regards

Norman

 

[joco-nz]

Cheers gents. Now i have straight cuts its back to the welding project. But a little bird tells me a local supplier of lathes and mills is having a sale in mid september. Its going to be an expensive month. :thumbup:

Of course while I know what lathe I'm after I have really only given scratched the surface thinking about a mill. I've seen a Luxcut (BF20L equivalent) in the flesh in CNC form (Thanks Bruce) and that looked pretty good so a BF20LV goes around NZD 2000. I looked at the MH28V which while meater still has the same side (versus top) mounted collumn. So dont see much material advantage in it. Seen the Sieg and the SX3 is just expensive in NZ, a tad over NZD 3000. After that you start getting into the likes of the HM-46, 47 and 48 series kit with the associated climbing price tag.

Now bering in mind that Bridgport and the like are hens teeth (from what I can see) in NZ so I am pretty much constrained to the chinese imports. So any views, experiences, advice welcome.

Cheers,
James.

 

[joco-nz]

Awesome result. Now you have it cutting straight there will be no stopping you! Looks almost like a precision tool now.

I have no idea why people insist on buying chopsaws to cut steel when these are so cheap!

Agree. The best deal I could find on such a saw with the metal blades was circa $980 NZD. Maybe it will cut faster, maybe straighter with less fuss. But that $400 saving is metal stock and tools I couldn't otherwise get.

 

[bruedney]

Cheers gents. Now i have straight cuts its back to the welding project. But a little bird tells me a local supplier of lathes and mills is having a sale in mid september. Its going to be an expensive month. :thumbup:

Of course while I know what lathe I'm after I have really only given scratched the surface thinking about a mill. I've seen a Luxcut (BF20L equivalent) in the flesh in CNC form (Thanks Bruce) and that looked pretty good so a BF20LV goes around NZD 2000. I looked at the MH28V which while meater still has the same side (versus top) mounted collumn. So dont see much material advantage in it. Seen the Sieg and the SX3 is just expensive in NZ, a tad over NZD 3000. After that you start getting into the likes of the HM-46, 47 and 48 series kit with the associated climbing price tag.

Now bering in mind that Bridgport and the like are hens teeth (from what I can see) in NZ so I am pretty much constrained to the chinese imports. So any views, experiences, advice welcome.

Cheers,
James.

Ok so now time for another visit to my workshop to share your knowledge on setting up a saw. I'll supply the pegs, 150mm ruler, coffee and probably baking.

:thumbup:

Bruce

 

[joco-nz]

BF20LV
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/M650

Price is reasonable, size is about right, a little bigger/heavier would be nice but this is a starting machine and I have seen lots of material on CNCing it. And I am really keen to eventually CNC it. On that basis something like this will be a reasonable DRO setup until I go CNC.

But there is a good list of accessories I will need to gather to support the Mill and for that matter the Lathe as well.

I want to create as many of the tools I will need myself as I can. Essentially a self imposed apprenticeship. I’m not in a made hurry to start building engines, I’m quite comfortable learning some base skills by making tools (clamps, vice etc). The aim being to work through many of the items talked about in a number of the Workshop Series books.

So, with that in mind I really would appreciate some advice on what base things I will need and also where I should look to source these from (bearing in mind I’m in NZ) so as to have a sensible mix of quality and price.

Thanks,
James

 

[XD351]

Don't waste your money on those cheap dro units they are crap !
I fitted one to my sieg x2 mill and after a few months i had problems with the micro usb fitting coming loose and then they seemed to get a mind of their own and the reading on the display changed to something else .
If you are going to convert to cnc later i would learn to use the dials on the machine and save the money for the conversion .
I ended up importing a unit from the dro store in china , its a tight squeeze to get the scale on the x& y axis but it did eventually fit ok and it is reliable and accurate .
I wouldn't use one of those units from hare and forbes on a broken drill press !

 

[joco-nz]

Ok. I'm not wedded to the DROs.

 

[DJP]

I went in another direction by purchasing old machines that are still functional. Some are as old as I am but they still can do useful work. A classic 'Canadian drill press, a 1940s Southbend 9 inch lathe and an old Cincinnati Burke mill. The controls are manual and the inch scales match the old callipers and gauges that came in a machinist's box. The machines purchases also included a fortune in extra optional parts and lots and lots of tooling. Old timers are giving up their workshops and very few people are interested.

I work slowly and most of my projects are prototypes so old machines are OK for me.

If I was to invest in future technology it would be 3D printing. Using the old machines the way that they were initially intended suits me just fine.

A thought for your consideration.

 

[joco-nz]

I went in another direction by purchasing old machines that are still functional. Some are as old as I am but they still can do useful work. A classic 'Canadian drill press, a 1940s Southbend 9 inch lathe and an old Cincinnati Burke mill. The controls are manual and the inch scales match the old callipers and gauges that came in a machinist's box. The machines purchases also included a fortune in extra optional parts and lots and lots of tooling. Old timers are giving up their workshops and very few people are interested.

I work slowly and most of my projects are prototypes so old machines are OK for me.

If I was to invest in future technology it would be 3D printing. Using the old machines the way that they were initially intended suits me just fine.

A thought for your consideration.

Thanks for the thoughts. On the 3D printing front do we have viable metal 3D printers now? I have built a plastic extrusion Reprap but I have lost sight of where the metal deposit tech has gotten to and how accessible it is to the home user.

Re older machines: I'm not adverse to reconditioning older kit. I'm just not sure I want to start out having to do it. Call me chicken.

Heck once I have some skills the idea of having something from the "good old days" to recondition has appeal as a project and I can easily see myself having a CNC mill and a manual mill just so I can do things without having to go via the computer.

Cheers,
J.

 

[DJP]

My old machines did not need refurbishment. They had some usage wear but nothing that I couldn't deal with. I keep pouring oil to them and they seem to like it. The only addition was a drip tray on the lathe bench. These old machine have very rugged designs so I expect them to out last me.

I still need to change gears to cut threads so some minor automation would be appreciated but as I said, I can deal with it. Best of all were the boxes and boxes of chucks, rests, collets and tooling that came with each machine. It would have cost a fortune to replace these things today and many of the tool bits and measurement instruments are high quality English or USA made.

At times I envy a new and bigger machine but keeping the devil that I know is best, in my opinion.

You only need to make a few parts to get comfortable with any machine and that comfort level generates confidence to make more parts. Whatever machines you buy, my advice is to use them every day to practise a skill even if you are not making a useful part. Confidence beats the latest high technology.

 

[grapegro]

Hello James,
I have the smaller model Optimum mill, BF17 ,these would be the best quality for money without doubt in my book. I fitted a complete dro to my mill and cannot be happier. I imported mine direct from the Chinese manufacturer. I used glass scales, in mini size, available from Delos Electrical Science and Technology Co Ltd, model no for the scales was DLSW. Dimensions are 21.5 x 33.5 by length required. The read out panel is very comprehensive and will save a lot of mistakes with its accurate formatting. I cannot see how to post a picture of my unit to this message so will send it in another .
Norm

 

[goldstar31]

I thought that DJP's views on old tooling were valuable. I didn't tick the 'Like' box because it was worth more!

If you read another posting about 'crap' motors on modern imported lathes and mills and the frequency( ouch) of blow ups, you should be worried. If you really think about things and not be carried away by 'today's gizmos' you will find that most of the engines and whatever were originally constructed using a lathe and a drilling machine. For the 'helluv- it', I bought a little Myford ML10 which is half my age- I'm 86+ and this came with the ability to have only SIX speeds and all that it had was plain cast iron bearings. In other words, it is 'All our yesterdays'. It had two faults primarily. One was a switch which contained asbestos and the other was that it has a cracked tumbler bracket which was non standard anyway. I'm struggling a bit trying to repair it but at the end of the day, I don't do a lot of screwcutting LEFT hand threads. I do them when the Moon is full and it's midnight and the vampires are coming out for a blood transfusion. In other words, I'm chasing Moonbeams!
So what came with the 'box of tricks'? In a box came a load of half inch lathe tools. My experience suggests that this size is a touch- a big touch- from being really useful on a baby lathe. Again, there is a QCTP which is a gnat's cock too tall for the lathe. A.N. Other got them on - on a bad day. They'll fit my bigger lathe but if you haven't a bigger lathe------ you have an answer.

OK, I can find a couple or three bits of plate and can make a 4 way tool post with saw, my drill and my screwing tackle. No issue except time! In my box of goodies was a 'Cleeve' swing tool holder. It isn't quite the thing as would be fashionable today but 'Martin Cleeve' wrote about it in his posthumous book 'Screwcutting in the Lathe'. It bores holes and doesn't waste much time in measurement because it lifts out of the way. However, it doesn't need packing or whatever and the height can be adjusted for the correct cut. Laughingly, it was made out of a few bits of square steel and a few home made nuts and bolts. Eventually, I'll convert it to a retracting screwcutting tool.

Then DRO's. It hasn't got any. However, someone - before the last incumbent converted the very basic slides to lock. 'He' whoever he was bid rather better and made adjustable dials which lock. He could have, I suppose, have gone a little further and converted them to Verniers by the old expedient of 9's and 10's out of M. Vernier from Ornans in the Jura and got 'Tenths of Thous. Remember this is a 'sh1te little lathe.

My first tests were worrying because it wouldn't face properly. I traced the fault to an 'Arris' or several because some comedian had been 'parting off' with a hacksaw and kept hitting the bed. There was a rear parting tool in the box of goodies but it was crude and probably he didn't know how to use it. The cure was to remove each arris with a Nicholson finest file out of my late wife's orthodontic box and then a rub over with fairly smooth Arkansas stone. It took longer to strip the bits and clean than 'restore' accuracy.

The next thing was a three jaw self centring chuck. Not any old one but one peppered with holes. Clearly the detent bracket was not from a ML10 but a spare bit of metal will enable pretty accurate dividing in the lathe using it. Hilariously, the lathe has a 65 bull wheel and with a bit of school boy maths, I can do differential indexing!

To add to my enjoyment, I found another Potts milling and drilling spindle. I have now three and with a bit of time, can do ornamental turning - or merely cam grinding!

Amongst the contents of Pandora's Box, I found a set of sweep face cutters to go on the faceplate. Again, there was a vertical slide and vice and so on.

Of course, there is a catchplate, a faceplate, a 4 jaw, a fixed steady and a running one.

For £500, not bad, eh?

Funny thing- no one was rushing with a roll of notes to beat an old man to it.

Food for thought, James?

Regards

Norman

 

[goldstar31]

The original drawings for gives Cleeve are on the 'net under Popular Mechanics April 1976 page 113 but a more recent version is in Hemingwaykits web site.

In addition the latter gives lots of DIY stuff for construction. No business connection except that the previous owner helped me along my way in a distant past.

 

[joco-nz]

Ooo SALE is on EARLY! TOOLS!! :thumbup:

https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L141
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/M650

 

[joco-nz]

The original drawings for gives Cleeve are on the 'net under Popular Mechanics April 1976 page 113 but a more recent version is in Hemingwaykits web site.

In addition the latter gives lots of DIY stuff for construction. No business connection except that the previous owner helped me along my way in a distant past.

Thanks. I found the relevant article here ( https://archive.org/stream/PopularMechanics1976/Popular Mechanics-04-1976#page/n106/mode/1up ) and have saved the relevant page down to my plans folder. Dang that folder is starting to get busy!

 

[goldstar31]

Glad to help. It is what we are here for! Cleeve used two at times.
There is an interesting development because Thomas wrote on how to make and adjust boring tools- using split collets( cut on your 6 x 4 saw, perhaps) and these fit the Cleeve which minimises overlong boring bores and also utilises more delicate cutters like 1/8th- 3mm round variety.

Again, it does suggest that if an eccentric pin is used, it will do retracting- for screwcutting.

Sorry about your folder but just concentrate on the simple construction ( and cheap) topics

Regards

Norman

 

[joco-nz]

Heh - a little provocative perhaps but last night I was cutting up some more 30x3mm SHS for the next stage of the welding project and the cuts started to go off square. Very odd. Checked all the alignments, they are bang on. Nothing has moved. The feed rate is unchanged, still using some cutting oil to help things along.

After some reading on various forums the likely conclusion is that the blade is blunt. It is the original blade that came with the saw so its not the best blade but I thought it would last a bit longer. So emergency purchase tomorrow of a bimetal blade. Going to cost me $16 more than if I had the time to order it online. Oh well :fan: happens.