Seeking info

[Steamchick]

Hi Lloyd,
That was the ethyl and methyl alcohol mix! Half drinking spirit and half blind poisoning spirit!
Hence the term " blind drunk"! Meths drinkers go blind. That is if they live long enough: they contract cancers, liver failure, and diabetes, to name just a few nasties. But we will all die of something: we all want to die happy!
Controlled 2 degrees cooler slowly extracts the ethyl alcohol leaving most of the methyl behind. Distilled accurately 3 times gets to a purity you can drink.... When cut down with at least 2/3rds water!
I shall stick to commercially produced booze....
Cheers!
K2

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Sutty. You have suggested that I'll have a solution to your problem. That made me laugh!
You are getting ahead of my knowledge of your burner design.
But a couple of ideas.
The panting is due to ebb and flow of fuel. The fuel floods in, cools the system so temperature and pressure drops, then boils and flares. Great when it does that! Then it burns the available vapour, pressure drops and a fresh flood of fuel flows in.
When the flood of fuel boils you have a good burner - big, and drawing lots of air. But looking at the size of flame, it will fill a huge firebox. So put a mock- up fire box over it to see if the back res sure contains it, or just enhances the blow-lamp flame!
Exhaust back pressure - of trying to force too much flame through a small hole exiting the firebox - will restrict the inflow of air, making the flames less fierce, less efficient and a larger volume of combusting flame.
So really I expect this burner to be simply too big for your boiler.
As the boiler gets hotter, I can see the flames lifting off the jets. The gas pressure is getting too high as the burner is getting hotter...
Try re-introducing the wicks?
Getting the "density"of wick is critical, as it is controlling the fuel flow, damping the flow and permitting a constant flame.
You may find that fine wire wool makes a practical wick, if the glass fibre is difficult. Cotton, wool, and organic fibres have better wicking... something to do with surface tension. But can deteriorate at relatively low temperatures.
Try cutting some strips of various materials 1/4" wide and 6" long and dip them in meths at one end, held vertically (maybe using clothes pegs from a string?), and see what wicks well and what doesn't. Wicking is the surface of fibres using surface tension (that's the force, Surface Energy is the factor that is balanced against the potential energy of raising the fuel up to a height) to drag the fuel upwards against gravity. But the wick also controls the flow of fuel, thus controlling the panting into a steady flow. More surface area of wick means more fuel. Finer fibres, different wick materials, etc, all need tuning to get the flow right. The wick, when dense enough, can also generate the right pressure difference between the cold liquid fuel and the hot vapour-end of the wick.
Does that help?
K2

 

[sutty]

Yes Ken, makes sense. I watched it for quite a while then i turned the fuel off and took off the top wick plate and vaporiser, the reservoir was empty but hot, i then turned the fuel back on and the meths boiled straight away so it looks like you're right. iI have some fine steel wool I used for flatting off some rocking horses I made, we'll try that Monday when Edd gets back from school.


Regards sutty

 

[Steamchick]

Latest thoughts Sutty:
Have you tried simply buying some VALOR wick or similar to use between the top and bottom tanks of the burner?
https://www.bing.com/search?q=valor...e.0.0l9.7103j0j1&pglt=515&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531https://www.bing.com/search?q=paraf...D0052AD962483C86F900214E3B54BC&FORM=QBRE&sp=2
In "my head" - I can envisage the wick filling the tubes between top and bottom chambers, projecting into both. The wet fuel in the bottom separated in terms of pressure and temperature from the top - where vaporisation should take place, pressure rise and gas issue from the jets. The wick should be a relatively tight fit in the tubes, so it can resist the "pressure from above" - and therefore allow fuel to flow from the Atmospheric pressure of the supply tank. The large quantity of wick should carry sufficient fuel to the top chamber to supply the jets - which will use the fuel vapor quite quickly at the pressure developed by the higher pressure there.
This is the principle of my Petrol blowlamp and camping stove. They both develop pressure in the fuel tank (one by conducted & radiated heat, the other by and air pump) - which is different to your design. The burner head must be pre-heated for the burners to work. But they only work successfully when the wick material is tightly packed in the supply tube to the pre-jet chamber and jet. - MY GUESS - The pressure in the pre-jet chamber is slightly higher than the tank - by virtue of the pressure difference and flow control supplied by the tightly packed wick - but liquid fuel carried there by surface tension of the wick fibres is heated and has a slightly higher pressure due to the temperature there. It is vapourised when expelled through the jet, using the heat to provide the latent heat of vaporisation for the fuel. I am aware that without the wick these burners do not work successfully. In contrast, the Paraffin blowlamps and stoves that appear to be similar in design are not. They utilise a pressurised tank to feed fuel through a heated coil, where the fuel is vapourised, and then expelled through a jet. The heater coil must be pre-heated for these lamps to work. These lamps can also "coke-up" when inferior fuel is used. (Heated heavier oils can break-down and produce particulate carbon and lighter products such as Aldehydes, Benzine, Toluene, etc...).
Your burner appears to require a fuel feed at atmospheric pressure - or possibly higher? - because the fuel is simply flowing at minimal head to get from the fuel bottom tank to the burner bottom tank. If the fuel in the burner bottom tank is at a higher pressure than the fuel tank, then it cannot draw in more fuel. So, it will evaporate the fuel it has until that has expired and then when the fuel in the reservoir is at a higher pressure it will rush along the pipe into the burner bottom tank, hit hot metal and partially vaporise - which will raise the pressure there and pump the fuel back to the reservoir! - So perhaps you need a wick along the length from fuel tap to bottom burner, to "dampen" flow fluctuations here?
First try the wick between top and bottom chambers of the burner. If unsuccessful, try the wick (String?) between fuel tap and burner bottom tank.
I mentioned string, because I have replaced (successfully) the original wicks of a petrol camping stove and a blow-lamp with multiple threads of string. - Feed a wire along the tube, make a hook, make loops of string that will nicely fill the tube, hook onto the wire and pull through the tube until something hangs out both ends. Unhook the wire and fit the tube to the system. I use cotton string (bought a reel of cotton string for knitting dishcloths!). It may work?
K2

 

[sutty]

Cheers Ken, I did see a post somewhere where a guy made a burner from a piece of small bore copper pipe, it was bent in a loop at the end with a jet hole drilled in it pointing back up towards the pipe, there was a wick all the way to the jet hole, to light it he heated 5he end of the pipe, when the jet lit the flame played on the pipe heating the fuel.
I’ll sort out the cotton string for the wick.

once again thank you. Regards sutty

 

[Steamchick]

Aye, seen it... a tiny burner though.
K2

 

[Lloyd-ss]

Hi Lloyd,
That was the ethyl and methyl alcohol mix! .................................snip
Cheers!
K2

Ken,
When I first read this, I thought, I know Ken is a smart guy, but this just doesn't sound right to me. If it goes against my gut feel, I am skeptical and need to dig deeper to get the correct answer. Critical thinking skills again? I found out that methanol is indeed another product of fermentation of fruits, but much less so from grains. But I also found that the methanol boils off at 148F, while the ethanol boils at 173F.
Sleeping on it last night I remember that my bio-chem buddy was very vigilant of the thermometer that was put through a cork into the vapor space of the stainless steel tub. I guess I missed the importance of the temperatures. My job was the construction of the apparatus, and his was the cooking, luckily. I remember no ill effects from the distilled spirits compared to many other ingested things, so he must have dumped all of the low temperature distillate.
Thanks for bringing that to everyone's attention. You never know who might need that helpful safety tid-bit.
Lloyd

Sutty,
Looking for the perfect combination of so many variables can be very time consuming. If I don't take notes about my building and testing, I end repeating dead-end paths. And that is always frustrating.
Carry-on. Success is just around the corner.
Lloyd

 

[Steamchick]

No problems Lloyd, I am glad someone checks my stuff, as I don't always have time to research everything I write.... I am glad you dug deeper!
I am only as smart as the accuracy of "what I think I know". Obviously, my memories of chemistry lessons from 60 years ago are dimmed with time - thanks for the corrections. We were just told "NEVER try hooch!" (like certain other things in life), "It will make you blind!" - The reasoning behind that left a memory...
But maybe too much beer has eroded the accuracy of that memory!
Maybe the best advice - "check my stuff against your stuff and against a reputable source".
Cheers!
K2

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Sutty,
While my brain idles in some lost space.... I ponder the source of alcohol as a fuel. I GUESS it may be one of the first manufacturered liquid fuels, needing a distillation process to separate it from the water when fermenting grains and fruits to make beer and wine. Perhaps this goes back to the first-time distillation was used? - Making crude Brandy and Gin from wine and beer respectively? - Then people found the spirit was highly inflammable?
I heard that the Marie Celeste was found abandoned yet sailing, and believe it was carrying a cargo of alcohol (near pure) in barrels, from North America to Europe? - The suggestion being that the hold became full of alcohol fumes from seepage through the wood barrels, and to avoid the risk of fire from a lamp flame or anything, the crew simply abandoned ship...? Or maybe they were drunk from the fumes?
I was wondering how the first alchemist developed a distillation process, and after playing with various solutions that he distilled, managed to discover "hooch"?
I believe that paraffin (or perhaps turpentine?) was first discovered/distilled because people were drying wood in furnaces, then after fires and explosions, realised that cooking wood gave off flammable fumes, which when cooled were combustible oils? - But I think this was much later than the "natural" extraction of oils - e.g. by pressing olives and certain grains, nuts, etc, or by heating herbs, animal fats, etc, in water and extracting the oil from the surface. Maybe someone boiling a pot of something found that the condensate collecting on a cold surface above have a different flavour of properties to the solute? - Then invented distillation, and subsequently, the experiments led to bandy, gin, whisky, and Meths for burners?
A visit to "Wiki" is required!
K2

How about this?
Fractional crystallization
See also: Fractional crystallization (chemistry)
The ethanol may be concentrated in fermented beverages by means of freezing. For example, the name applejack derives from the traditional method of producing the drink, jacking, the process of freezing fermented cider and then removing the ice, increasing the alcohol content.[3][4] Starting with the fermented juice, with an alcohol content of less than ten percent, the concentrated result can contain 25–40% alcohol.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoonshineMedieval Muslim chemists such as Jābir ibn Ḥayyān (Latin: Geber, ninth century) and Abū Bakr al-Rāzī (Latin: Rhazes, c. 865–925) experimented extensively with the distillation of various substances. The distillation of wine is attested in Arabic works attributed to al-Kindī (c. 801–873 CE) and to al-Fārābī (c. 872–950), and in the 28th book of al-Zahrāwī's (Latin: Abulcasis, 936–1013) Kitāb al-Taṣrīf (later translated into Latin as Liber servatoris).[51]

 

[Steamchick]

Lloyd, I would guess that if you had some horrible brew you wanted to distill for fuel it may be safer to partial distill it by fractional distillation, putting it in the freezer and pouring off the liquor after ice has formed.....??
Then repeat? And when you get some decent strength alcohol mix, try distilling it to get to a flammable strength?
Just check the Revenue Laws first.....!! The taxman takes you equipment, illegal spirit, and locks you in jail when he finds out....
K2

 

[abby]

Distilling fermented liquor results in a constant boiling mixture .
Look up the definition of azeotrope.
Absolute alcohol i.e. 100% can be produced by removing the water .
There are several ways to do this including the use of epsom salt.
Methanol can be separated from the ethanol by using a fractionating column .
Dan.

 

[sutty]

Hello guys, a bit farther forward, haven't had time to sort the burner out yet but that's next. The boiler is almost ready to solder, here's some pix.

As always feel free to put me straight if you see anything amiss.

Best regards sutty

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Sutty, At the risk of sounding crazy: Before you silver solder the boiler, I suggest you make the mock-up firebox and centre flue so you can confirm if your burner needs more flue or not? - Even if it is just the bottom half of the boiler (without bushes, top, etc. but with fire-tubes, flue and the boiler bottom plate) fitted but not soldered. (It won't melt! - just tarnish.).
Although the boiler design (as discussed previously) seems OK by my reckoning, the burner seems to be making a lot of flame that is "too big" to go up the flue...
My own boilers, where I made the boiler to fit the burner physically, all tend to be smaller for the amount of steam they can deliver with original burners, and I have had to make significant changes in burner design, fuel, etc, to use a more powerful burner with much more compact combustion to get the steam I wanted.
I other words, test the burner capacity versus the boiler flue arrangement before soldering the boiler. These must form an integrated design, or you will waste a lot of time - and perhaps enthusiasm from Edd? - when you change the burner or decide the boiler is simple inadequate?
Incidentally, how will you light the burner when the finished boiler is assembled to an engine with burner in place? This is often forgotten.... (by me at least!).
K2

 

[Steamchick]

Hi again Sutty,
I found this...
https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/mystery-stove.45984/I guess this is the type of "burn" you are hoping for?
I have not yet found the type of burner design you are following - other than the sketch in K.N. Haris's book. Any links to websites? - It seems to me to combine a few ideas from the camping stove burners, but has a large annular wick burner around a vapour generator - with holes of indeterminate size...
Balancing this to get a burner like the camp-cooker burner is the hard bit, I guess?
The Turm 38 and others all have a wicked under-burner to heat a vaporising tube - but they use a single gas jet and (valved) air intake to create a gas-air mix that is expelled through the burner head holes to burn "nicely". I used to own an ex tank-corps WW2 army surplus stove that ran on petrol just like that. But using petrol had a pressure tank and pump, and no wicked heater beneath it.
K2

 

[sutty]

Ken, yes that’s what I was trying to achieve, I’ve been playing around with the burner today but my design is wrong. There’s no seal between the reservoir and wick/vaporiser head so the pressure leaks out.
I tried changing the wicks for wire wool and that worked better but still boiled off the meths. I also filled the meths feed pipe with cotton string but that restricted the flow to the reservoir.
I’m going to remake the burner head and separate the feed to the vaporiser and the vaporiser heater as per the turn 38 and see if that works.

regards. Sutty

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Sutty.
I am not sure what to suggest.... but if you are re-designing the burner, I like the idea of it converted to the design of pressure fed burner - through a single jet and air intake - into your burner (modified...) something like the Turm 38 camp stove principle.

If everything fails I can make a ceramic burner for you. Or make plans for Ed to make?
Have fun!
K2

 

[sutty]

Cheers Ken, Just got back from a blast on the bike. I've been checking out the Turm stoves, joined the Classiccamp stoves forum, good info on there.
It looks like i've overthought our burner so I'm halfway through drawing one up. I have a jewellers O/A torch that has some really fine nozzles and I'm going to try one of those, I need some 1/4" BSF taps though so can't do much till Monday. Our local metal shop has a good selection of steel tube for the burner head. I'll put a pic up when I've got it sorted
Regards sutty

 

[Steamchick]

A steam iron has a drip mechanism to drip wafer onto a hot plate to develop steam at little over atmospheric pressure... maybe that's what you need for your burner? Some way of arranging a continuous drip of wet fuel to the vaporising tank to give a reasonably consistent vaporisation for the burner?
Just a thought..
And I think if you try a bit less string in your current arrangement you may get more fuel flow? - Or try rolled-up kitchen towel (not too tight!) - like a cigarette - inserted in the feed pipe? The idea being that the wick draws fuel along it even despite the pressure fluctuations you are currently getting. When the wet fuel gets hot enough it will create the vapour "along the way"...
I sense a lot of playing - maybe Edd can do the playing and record results from 1 string, 2 strings, 3 strings, etc. - or whatever?
K2

 

[sutty]

Cheers Ken, I like the burn from the stoves you put me onto. I'm going to have a go at knocking one up tomorrow a bit like this , the pre heater will be out side the boiler shell and the wick in the feed tube around some twisted wire. I'll have to figure a way to fit a control valve for the flame if I can get it to work.
see what you think regards sutty

 

[Steamchick]

Hi Sutty,
It should work, I think, but the key to all jet and air-hole mixers and mixed gas burners is the ratio of all the components.
I know a set of rules for LPG.... but Alcohol is a different chemical mix, with different calorific value, and I think needs more air..
The pressure at the jet is an unknown, so I think you must do a lot of experimentation to get it right.
You'll be surprised how large the jet needs to be, and also how big the pipes need to be. Look at the camping stoves for a guide? Large cross section tubes (1/2" dia?) because the pressure of the vapour at the jet is so low.
Maybe the jet will need to be 1/16" 1mm? 2mm? I don't know. So make it easily interchangeable. And make a sleeve to shut off the air hole a bit - or be prepared to use a lot of bits of masking tape... The burner may need a dozen 1mm holes or something - but I am guessing with my finger in the air! Maybe start at 0.5 mm and be prepared to drill out a few at a time to something "next size up"?
K2