Putting some grip (stippling) on an aluminium drive pulley.

[willray]

SteveM is spot on.
...
You have got to use common sense and be aware, so keep your fingers away from cutters and chucks.
...
I don’t see anything wrong with Jim’s approach to stippling...

The number of people defending "Jim's approach", who seem to have not actually watched the video, is rather depressing.

I am truly disheartened by SteveM, Cogsy, and the rest of the crowd who seem to think that it's not worth trying to avoid accidents or unsafe practices unless they're likely to result in dismemberment.

People saying "keep your fingers away from chucks and cutters" are not being "H&S"/OSHA/what-have-you nazis, they're saying "keep your fingers away from cutters and chucks". You yourself said it up there.

Unfortunately, when they first mentioned that Jim's approach put fingers near both driven cutters and chucks, and additionally results in rapid unexpected movement of the hands near those cutters and chucks, making the approach rather more risky than other (already risky) operations that involve the fingers near cutters and chucks, Jim's response was "Wut??? Dinna cut muhself, mus be safe you meathead!".

And now you're defending that, without even knowing what you're defending.

Apparently we should have taken the "Horse, meet water" comment back on page 1 more to heart.

 

[terryd]

I was a pilot & logistician in the US Army and once a maintenance tech. Long story . . . Whenever I heard someone say "it'll be ok" I knew with 100% surety they weren't planning on being there when the fecal matter started spraying. Once turned down an aircraft when the mechanic, who had probably been doing it a long time, retorqued a bolt in the rotor head assembly without writing it up or getting a tech inspector to sign it off. Didn't argue with him. But the Main. officer was royally hacked off that I spoiled his time-to-maintenance flow demanding another aircraft. Until I returned. Then he sheepishly showed me a steel shaft 2/3 gone eaten away by an aluminum crank arm. A ticking time bomb if ever I saw one. Yea "It'll be OK."

Ron

Hi Ron,

Be careful you may be branded as bizarre by telling such tales or as an overzealous H&S guru ;-0

I'm astonished and saddened at the ludicrous criticism Jim's video has generated. It was an interesting take on something he wanted to achieve, short and sweet and impossible to see how any sort of serious injury could have occurred. I spent 30 years in the Fire Service and another decade in fire safety and H&S so I'm aware that people often do stupid things and get hurt. But Jim was not going to seriously hurt himself or anyone else. And come on - nobody in their right mind would see it and think it safe to upscale it to the risk of dismemberment.

I sometimes wonder how the H&S devotees of this world ever find anything interesting to watch. In their world every video would be twice as long to include the necessary disclaimers and advisories (now this is relatively safe, but if you used a bigger sharper tool or a spinny thing spinning really fast - then you risk another Chernobyl!!!). And half the the videos from Abom or ToT or Robin or Cogsy or Stefan or AVE or the like would be X-rated. In the perfect H&S world videos about diving in the ocean or rugby or machining would be banned, because it it is simply not possible to do any of these things without some element of risk. Watching cricket would be a nightmare seeing 'DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME' flashed on the screen whenever someone whacks a six.

I hate this expression and have never used it in print before but really - some of you need to get a life.

Thanks for posting Jim. I like to see your work and how you do it.

What utter tosh about the attitude of some of us to safety I really have not heard nsuch rubbish since I last heard a certain US president;'s speech. You obviously have never seen a Keith Appleby video, a professional steam engine builder as well as an excellent musician. He has a huge number of videos which he makes to help others.

Such adolescent attitudes that you and some others have demonstrated her are beyond belief. Such posts are the equivalent of the teenage 'Whatever' when caught out doing something wrong.

TerryD

 

[minh-thanh]

I think, we should end this thread !
Some say it's okay, some say it's not., ..some say it's not and then...
We argue and insult each other like ,,,, ....
So do what you feel is okay and get the results you want to be fine !
You feel it's ok then it will be ok !
There are many things that we need to be mindful of: work, projects ... and there is a lot of new information on the forum to see.
That's my final opinion in this thread !
Anyway, I learned something ... Thanks,.

 

[jack620]

So do what you feel is okay and get the results you want to be fine !
You feel it's ok then it will be ok !

I like the way you think minh. The world would be a better place if more people were like you.

 

[jack620]

I really have not heard nsuch rubbish since I last heard a certain US president;'s speech.

What? You invoked Trump in a thread about metalwork? Trying to link someone you disagree with to a divisive public figure to try and discredit their ideas is a low form of debate. Poor form.

 

[jack620]

I am truly disheartened by SteveM, Cogsy, and the rest of the crowd who seem to think that it's not worth trying to avoid accidents or unsafe practices unless they're likely to result in dismemberment.

(my bold)

Nowhere in this thread has anyone said that. It would be great if some of you stopped making stuff up and engaging in ridiculous exaggerations.

 

[willray]

Nowhere in this thread has anyone said [it's not worth trying to avoid accidents or unsafe practices unless they're likely to result in dismemberment]. It would be great if some of you stopped making stuff up and engaging in ridiculous exaggerations.

...Jim was not going to seriously hurt himself or anyone else. And come on - nobody in their right mind would see it and think it safe to upscale it to the risk of dismemberment.

Which is to say, SteveM feels it's inappropriate that people are suggesting that the method at least deserves a mention of caution, since it's not going to lead to dismemberment.

I won't wait for an apology.

 

[JimDobson]

You obviously have never seen a Keith Appleby video, a professional steam engine builder as well as an excellent musician. He has a huge number of videos which he makes to help others.

ROFLMAO with this one. Keith just LOVES taking the mickey out of anyone who takes umbrage at the way HE does things in HIS workshop.
He gives the H&S responders to his Youtube channel (sometimes people will refer to these folks after a town name in northeastern France) some excellent serves with his very special flavour of dry humour and wit......looks like it goes over some peoples heads!!!!

 

[jack620]

I won't wait for an apology.

That's wise, because none is due. You took SteveM's comment out of context.

 

[Jules]

This is now sadly deteriorating as predicted.
There is no right or wrong!!!
There are just different opinions.
Some people think people like Jim are responsible for nuclear disasters !!!
Showing the video won’t cause a world disaster, if someone feels it needs the “Keith Appleton” approach then add a comment for novice machine users.
Perhaps even suggest the benefit to Jim to evolve his technique to use a more ridged tool holding system.
After all none of us likes to remake a part due to damage caused by a slip or something breaking.

 

[terryd]

Hi,

The origin of this thread was obviously Steve's use of an inappropriate technique, and it was inappropriate in all sorts of ways not the least that he admitted he was also working around a tripod and camera which he didn't use for the final component because of the inconvenience. However that said, he is working on his own in a private workshop and whatever he decides to do is ok. The real point that most of us are making that it is not ok to publicise such techniques on a public platform where there are possibly less experienced beginners may access it..

Steve makes the point that we are all modellers used to rotating machinery, point taken But there are those who are beginning the use of lathes and milling machines etc without the benefit of previous experience or instruction who usually look to sources like YouTube for instruction and inspiration. I'm lucky that I had a 5 year apprenticeship, worked in a machine shop and toolroom for years and have many years experience in teaching and lecturing young people and I can confirm that 'sense' ain't very 'common'. I would also like to point out that there are many accidents in industry causing injury to those who are well experienced in using machinery. It is not an onerous task to add safety comments in an instructional video such as those by Keith Appleby I have mentioned before, his safety comments are light hearted and amusing but instructional. The macho amongst us would be well advised to watch a few of his very professional videos.

As for the machismo demonstrated in comments such as we couldn't watch cricket if we were worried about someone hitting a six is on a par with the comments - taken out of context - about Chernobyl. In that example I must admit it is bit sad watching the H&S in action on the cricket field with all that leg and body padding, thick gloves, helmets with guards and boxes worn by batters and close fielders - wimps, what's wrong with getting a bit of concussion or losing a few teeth or a broken jaw, perhaps a couple of smashed fingers, or even catching one in the goolies thus affecting their breeding chances.

Stay safe, be a wimp protect others and wear a mask

TerryD

 

[terryd]

By the way to those who think that some of the safety stories on here are made up, I can assure you that all of the examples I quoted were true, real incidents and I could have quoted quite a few more examples from my 60 odd years in industry and education, some of which are very gory involving heavy machinery and fragile flesh and bone. Many of these caused by taking short cuts by very experienced operators. In fact it was their very experience, over confidence and familiarity which failed them.

As an aside, a few weeks ago the traffic police in Canada pulled over a Tesla self driving car on a major motorway because the 'driver' and his passenger had reclined their seats and were taking a nap. the 'driver' couldn't see what the problem was as the car could drive itself - common sense in action.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news...l-of-self-driving-car-going-93mph/ar-BB199FEb
TerryD

 

[Cogsy]

Hi,

The origin of this thread was obviously Steve's use of an inappropriate technique, and it was inappropriate in all sorts of ways not the least that he admitted he was also working around a tripod and camera which he didn't use for the final component because of the inconvenience. However that said, he is working on his own in a private workshop and whatever he decides to do is ok. The real point that most of us are making that it is not ok to publicise such techniques on a public platform where there are possibly less experienced beginners may access it..

Steve makes the point that we are all modellers used to rotating machinery, point taken But there are those who are beginning the use of lathes and milling machines etc without the benefit of previous experience or instruction who usually look to sources like YouTube for instruction and inspiration. I'm lucky that I had a 5 year apprenticeship, worked in a machine shop and toolroom for years and have many years experience in teaching and lecturing young people and I can confirm that 'sense' ain't very 'common'. I would also like to point out that there are many accidents in industry causing injury to those who are well experienced in using machinery. It is not an onerous task to add safety comments in an instructional video such as those by Keith Appleby I have mentioned before, his safety comments are light hearted and amusing but instructional. The macho amongst us would be well advised to watch a few of his very professional videos.

As for the machismo demonstrated in comments such as we couldn't watch cricket if we were worried about someone hitting a six is on a par with the comments - taken out of context - about Chernobyl. In that example I must admit it is bit sad watching the H&S in action on the cricket field with all that leg and body padding, thick gloves, helmets with guards and boxes worn by batters and close fielders - wimps, what's wrong with getting a bit of concussion or losing a few teeth or a broken jaw, perhaps a couple of smashed fingers, or even catching one in the goolies thus affecting their breeding chances.

Stay safe, be a wimp protect others and wear a mask

TerryD

This type of reply is my main issue with this thread. It's an obvious personal dig at the original poster, and any others who don't agree with your view, which is composed with such fervour that you couldn't even get the OP's name correct (it's Jim, not Steve). Yet it does not add anything to the discussion and wanders far off-topic.

Ostensibly, people are taking umbrage at what they perceive as a risky or dangerous practice, but I believe it is really about a perception of not being listened to.

Terry - in this thread so far, you have advocated for using a cheap (and presumably flimsy) eBay leatherworking tool, with a wooden handle, instead of Jim's method. With this tool, if it failed during use, Jim's hands would be closer to the chuck jaws and the pressure angle would have his fingers at least impacting the rotating workpiece, if not the chuck jaws as well. This doesn't seem a safer option but it is what you initially proposed.

You have also advocated using hand-held emery cloth one a rotating workpiece (specifically not paper for some reason) which flies in the face of much safety literature and best practices, whilst claiming your years of training and teaching apprentices means your opinion is somehow more correct than others.
(Links to official emery cloth best practices from several countries: LINK, LINK, LINK, LINK).

Not every forum post, picture or video is intended for beginner modellers or machinists. If it were, none of us that have been here a while would learn anything. I also don't believe that we, as content generators, are inherently responsible for providing a laundry list of safety warnings just-in-case a beginner may watch a technique and decide to try to apply it while lacking basic skills or knowledge. We don't see the likes of Myfordboy, Joe Pie or Abom79 filling their videos with basic warnings - sure, if something has a hidden danger it may be mentioned (I'm again thinking emery cloth here) but basic machining knowledge is assumed.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen posts about manually manipulating conrods around pivot points to round off the ends on manual mills - an incredibly dangerous practice if not performed with adequate knowledge and care - yet this rarely draws a safety comment. Yet somehow this thread has blown up from it's humble beginnings - which, if anyone cares to go back to the first posts to refresh their memories - starts with a disagreement about whether the addition of the 'stippling' was a good idea or not. Funny that safety was only raised after the differences of opinion became evident.

 

[Cogsy]

As an aside, a few weeks ago the traffic police in Canada pulled over a Tesla self driving car on a major motorway because the 'driver' and his passenger had reclined their seats and were taking a nap. the 'driver' couldn't see what the problem was as the car could drive itself - common sense in action.

Supposedly the North American vehicle fatality rate is 1.16 per million miles but with vehicles in autonomous mode it falls to only 1 per 320 million miles. So the car would have been less safe with a human driver - and driver fatigue is a huge factor in many fatalities, so a tired driver would be more likely to crash. In this example, common sense says the driver was safer having a sleep than driving his car. Common sense says that every vehicle should be self-driving and not even contain manual controls - they should also be able to communicate between vehicles in the immediate vicinity to coordinate their actions, improving traffic flow and saving thousands of lives every year.

If we want to slag off safety procedures, and seeing as the incident has already been raised, Chernobyl was caused by an errant safety test gone awry. Had they not been testing the safety procedures, the reactor would have quite happily continued to run.

 

[goldstar31]

Correction please,
I raised the Health and Safety as the 3rd reply within hours of the original . Respfully the misconception is the 'InternationDate Line! And the fact that that the Sun goes around the Earth
Monday 15.43 Greenwich Mean Time 2nd November.

 

[Jules]

The facts are that Jim carried out his procedure without any injuries.
The degree of repeatability of the process before it “Goes wrong.” Is the subject of clearly varying opinions.
Those who think we should make videos “Beginner friendly,” aren’t familiar with the video content on line.
You can watch someone making their own rocket fuel or riding their sports bike at 120+ mph on the rear wheel, many thousands of crazy things, without any warnings.
If you can’t take responsibility for your own safety whilst using a machine then you shouldn’t use a machine.

 

[terryd]

This type of reply is my main issue with this thread. It's an obvious personal dig at the original poster, and any others who don't agree with your view, which is composed with such fervour that you couldn't even get the OP's name correct (it's Jim, not Steve). Yet it does not add anything to the discussion and wanders far off-topic.

Ostensibly, people are taking umbrage at what they perceive as a risky or dangerous practice, but I believe it is really about a perception of not being listened to.

Terry - in this thread so far, you have advocated for using a cheap (and presumably flimsy) eBay leatherworking tool, with a wooden handle, instead of Jim's method. With this tool, if it failed during use, Jim's hands would be closer to the chuck jaws and the pressure angle would have his fingers at least impacting the rotating workpiece, if not the chuck jaws as well. This doesn't seem a safer option but it is what you initially proposed.

You have also advocated using hand-held emery cloth one a rotating workpiece (specifically not paper for some reason) which flies in the face of much safety literature and best practices, whilst claiming your years of training and teaching apprentices means your opinion is somehow more correct than others.
(Links to official emery cloth best practices from several countries: LINK, LINK, LINK, LINK).

Not every forum post, picture or video is intended for beginner modellers or machinists. If it were, none of us that have been here a while would learn anything. I also don't believe that we, as content generators, are inherently responsible for providing a laundry list of safety warnings just-in-case a beginner may watch a technique and decide to try to apply it while lacking basic skills or knowledge. We don't see the likes of Myfordboy, Joe Pie or Abom79 filling their videos with basic warnings - sure, if something has a hidden danger it may be mentioned (I'm again thinking emery cloth here) but basic machining knowledge is assumed.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen posts about manually manipulating conrods around pivot points to round off the ends on manual mills - an incredibly dangerous practice if not performed with adequate knowledge and care - yet this rarely draws a safety comment. Yet somehow this thread has blown up from it's humble beginnings - which, if anyone cares to go back to the first posts to refresh their memories - starts with a disagreement about whether the addition of the 'stippling' was a good idea or not. Funny that safety was only raised after the differences of opinion became evident.

Oh dear here we go again.

Dear Cogsy you really should read comments more carefully. You make a point about the late introduction of posts regarding safety, if you had read the postings you might have noticed that the first safety message was in the third or fourth posting by Norman (Goldstar31) the following day after Jim's original one (and allowing for the time difference between Australia and th eUK it was a pretty prompt reply - well done Norman) and the discussion of the merits of stippling only occupied a couple of short posts.

You accuse me of attacking Jim, please read my first paragraph again where I say what Jim does in his own workshop is up to him, but not to put it on a public platform where inexperienced beginners may take it as advice without a simple spoken warning. I still believe the technique demonstrated was dangerous, for example apart from all the other dangers at point 1:30 on in the video for some time Jim is using his left hand to support his grips and increase the force and at that point his left forefinger was jus a few mm from the rotating blade and a slip could be disastrous if a few sinews were cut in the knuckle.

As for emery cloth on the lathe I use lengths approx 18 inches long from a reel 1 inch wide made specially for the job. I hold the ends lightly at a distance of 6 to 8 inches from the work so that if it catches (unlikely but possible0 it is pulled from my fingers. I certainly would not hold any wrap abrasive around the work itself which one has to do with paper, if I were to demostrate th process I would certainly discuss the safety aspects while working, it doesn't cost. My technique was taught to me by very safety concious craftsmen, not amateurs working at home. The only other abrasive material I might use is one of those emery coated sponge blocks whic h can safely be pressed against the work. I also find it rather ironic if not amusing that I am being lectured on H&S by someone who spends so much time denying it.

As for the leather prickers they are not at all flimsy, especially when compared with q dreme saw,the wheels are around 3 - 4 mm thick when compared with a thin, hardened Dremel saw blade which is liable to shatter with sideways forces, held on a relatively long shaft by a bearing which is not designed for the sort of work demonstrated. Having a wooden handle, a pricker allows the applied force to be in line with the tool not what was demonstrated using in a cantilevered situation.

You further accuse me of not getting names correct. Again read my first paragraph and note that I called him JIM. In the following paragaph I was addressing SteveM concerning his comments about safety comments spoiling a cricket match which I found ironic as teh batter and close fielders are a standing advert for H&S with all their protective equipment. I am not responsible for your confusion but apologise if you didn't get my satire.

As for your ridiculous statement that not all postings or videos are not intended for beginners, who are you to know who watches and reads them, there's no special partition between experienced users and beginners on the internet that is why qualifying comments are necessary occasionally. Of course content generators are responsible for the possible outcomes of that content your declaration otherwise is gob smacking. The examples of providers you quote are all competent and scrupulous people demonstrating correct and safe procedures. As for the videos produced by much more professional YouTubers they diligently demonstrate safe procedures not bodged up methods and dodgy unsuitable tools. I have been watching videos by users such as Myfordboy who you mention for many years and remember his early casting videos and was once able to offer advice when he was having problems with cores.

To repeat, please read, view and understand the posts that are here I note that Norman (goldstar31 has added his thoughts on your post before I got to mine.

 

[terryd]

The facts are that Jim carried out his procedure without any injuries.
The degree of repeatability of the process before it “Goes wrong.” Is the subject of clearly varying opinions.
Those who think we should make videos “Beginner friendly,” aren’t familiar with the video content on line.
You can watch someone making their own rocket fuel or riding their sports bike at 120+ mph on the rear wheel, many thousands of crazy things, without any warnings.
If you can’t take responsibility for your own safety whilst using a machine then you shouldn’t use a machine.

No one said that videos should 'be made for beginners' simply that attention should be drawn to possible pitfalls and dangers I would hate to think I had caused someone injuries, just why making such comments in the course of the video is so onerous, I simply don't understand. I have sen many videos which begin with liability disclaimers, I'm not suggesting that. Just because there are irresponsible idiots who make such irresponsible videos does not mean that we should not make responsible ones. I certainly don't believe that terrorists should be able to spreadbomb making techniques but they do.

Unless you understand all of the safety issues with a machine as a beginner and only have access to online instruction and advice you can't necessarily take full responsibility for you own safety.

TerryD

 

[terryd]

Supposedly the North American vehicle fatality rate is 1.16 per million miles but with vehicles in autonomous mode it falls to only 1 per 320 million miles. So the car would have been less safe with a human driver - and driver fatigue is a huge factor in many fatalities, so a tired driver would be more likely to crash. In this example, common sense says the driver was safer having a sleep than driving his car. Common sense says that every vehicle should be self-driving and not even contain manual controls - they should also be able to communicate between vehicles in the immediate vicinity to coordinate their actions, improving traffic flow and saving thousands of lives every year.

If we want to slag off safety procedures, and seeing as the incident has already been raised, Chernobyl was caused by an errant safety test gone awry. Had they not been testing the safety procedures, the reactor would have quite happily continued to run.

Quote:

"Currently there are no companies that are able to offer a fully autonomous ride in any conditions, on any road, with no human overseer." and

"The leaders in autonomous driving have achieved Level 4 technology, but only along pre-defined routes under specific circumstances (daytime, good weather). These companies are offering campus shuttles or employee buses only, and always with human safety drivers on board."

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/the-current-state-of-autonomous-vehicles/
The current so called 'autonomous' vehicles are actually assisted driving systems. I see that Tesla are relying basically on cameras and not LIDAR, ok in sunny California but not so good in snowy, foggy Manchester.
As far as I know all jusrisdiction state something like 'the driver should be ready to take control of th vehicle should the necessity arise' (not an exact quote before you complain Cogsy). As I also have a masters degree in Software Engineering Management I certainly wouldn't trust computer software in a safety situation unlike Boeing.

TerryD

P.S. please note the irony.

 

[terryd]

I should also have commented re. autonomous vehicles that if the driver is expected to remain alert enough to take over in emergency so he/she might as well be driving anyway which focuses the mind and prevents the mind from wandering generally for most people (I must exclude my ex wife from that statement)

TerryD