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Well, don't do it with the saw spinning. I guess you don't have any layout ink yet, so paint a dot of nail polish on your part, and, while turning the saw by hand, bring the head down until you scratch the ink/paint a bit. Set your cutter height from there, don't forget half of the saw's thickness.
 
Zee,
Like vlmarshall said, you can hand turn the cutter. I use cigarette paper and when it catches I set zero. I pull the paper back and forth so when the blade or end mill catches I don't mar the work.

Hope that helps,
Sean
 
vlmarshall said:
Well, don't do it with the saw spinning. I guess you don't have any layout ink yet, so paint a dot of nail polish on your part, and, while turning the saw by hand, bring the head down until you scratch the ink/paint a bit. Set your cutter height from there, don't forget half of the saw's thickness.
Seanol said:
Like vlmarshall said, you can hand turn the cutter. I use cigarette paper and when it catches I set zero. I pull the paper back and forth so when the blade or end mill catches I don't mar the work.

You know...I knew that...I'd already done it once (without turning on the spindle) when I slotted the piston. Why I was thinking I'd be turning on the spindle when locating the saw...I don't know. Oh yes I do. BECAUSE THE INSTRUCTIONS WERE NOT CLEAR! So I stand by what I said. Unsafe because the instructions do not specifically tell you not to.

Thanks. Very good tips. I like the nail polish (but I do have layout ink).

I'll use those tips when I make a new rotary valve.

That's right...I ruined the part. :(

It didn't help that (despite warnings) I turned the RT the wrong way.
But even that wasn't a catastrophe. It was recoverable. The cut was too short so I simply offset the degrees to create a new 'zero'.

Would have been a good recovery. Would have.

When I went to do the second cut...the higher cut...the part tilted. Done.

Post mortem...

Yes. The instructions again. Put a parallel under the part to hold it up. Any idea what size parallel? No. I used the shortest (vertically). Any warning to keep the part as low as possible? Nope. Part was still too high. I think the parallel would have fit sideways and the part would have been lower. The chuck would have had more to hold. Was it me? Well yes to some extent...I should have noticed the part might be too high. But still, as a BEGINNER'S kit...the instructions should have been chock full of warnings. Grumble.

The initial setup...(per the stinking instructions!)...

IMG_0230.jpg


Making cut one...
Had to remove the screw...the saw wouldn't come down far enough. I still don't know why that screw was needed. Also had to remove the parallels. Imagine turning the RT with those still in place?

IMG_0231.jpg


Making cut two...uh nope...disaster...

IMG_0232.jpg


Hey Foozer...I added to my 'shelf of shame'.

You've all been there...that was the very last machining operation. Just some sanding/polishing left. (Not as bad as firebird's recent catastrophe though.)

Time to sit down, kick back, and bend the elbow.

Success is around the corner. Maybe the 2nd corner...but around some corner.
 
Don't feel bad, Zee. Even in the professional shop, parts get killed. It's common practice, in a run of multiples of the same part, to make a few extra just in case.
Even for some single-part jobs, if they're not made from some exotic material, but have many setups and multiple operators (someone sawing stock, a lathe guy, a mill guy, heat treating, and a grinder guy), an extra part comes in handy.
Even if someone killes the extra part somewhere along the way, if it's still usable as a "setup part", it'll go with the good part through the rest of the more difficult steps, clearly marked as a dead part.



 
from the LMS website:

"These Elderberry Steam Engines come with the best drawings and construction booklets in the business. The drawings are all CAD generated, with complete dimensions and tolerances. The Construction Manual is a virtually complete how-to for using the mini lathe and mini mill.

The construction manuals for the Elderberry kits form a series. The launch engine is the first in the series. The mill engine contruction manual builds on skills learned from building the launch engine, and the toy loco builds on skills learned from building the other two projects."

if these are the best ??? WOW!!!!!!

I would highly recommend plans from Bill Lindsey at Workbench Minatures or Jerry Howell . The plans are excellent, but don't try to "teach" like what you've got, but these seem to be doing more harm than good.

HTH
Mark

P.S. no connection to Jerry or Bill, just a satisfied customer
 
vlmarshall said:
Don't feel bad, Zee.

I do and I don't. I don't feel bad when it's learning something I don't know. I feel bad if I had been stupid. Unfortunately...this was close (and some might say - yeah right) to being stupid. Just look at the pic. The part is way high! I'm sure any one of you would have immediately seen the danger. Now sure...if that had been my first cut...but I've gotten a lot of good advice on this forum...I feel I should have caught that.

I appreciate your comment.

two dogs said:
from the LMS website:

"These Elderberry Steam Engines come with the best drawings and construction booklets in the business. The drawings are all CAD generated, with complete dimensions and tolerances. The Construction Manual is a virtually complete how-to for using the mini lathe and mini mill.

if these are the best ??? WOW!!!!!!

I appreciate it 'two dogs'. But I need to be fair...don't take my word for it...see what others think. No doubt I've done some things wrong that others might not have...on the other hand...there are errors. And I'm disappointed in the clarity.

Bottom line...I got a learning that is much more valuable than the bit of metal and time I spent on it.

And what fun!

Just look at the bad luck some of the other members had today. Mine pales.
 
zeeprogrammer said:
BECAUSE THE INSTRUCTIONS WERE NOT CLEAR!

Clear and Concise? I think its in the male genes to ignore them anyway, part of the "never stop and ask for directions" while driving.

Hey Foozer...I added to my 'shelf of shame'.

I added another today, gonna need another shelf soon :)

Ya try and tuck your part as far down into the jaws as you can while still leaving room for the saw. At least try to get two of those jaw teeth to bite. Little pieces of Soda can chaffing stock so the jaw marks are reduced :) Looks like you have the room, you can use a piece of HSS tool stock for the standoff. Its as accurate as need be for your operation.
 
Hi Zee,
Don't sweat it!
don't think your the only one who's tossed a part off a slitting saw.....That's called "experience" :big:

You can't buy experience....it's earned......you just earned some ;D....you should feel better already! ;D

This part don't come in a book Zee....your learning it the only way possible...by getting in the arena, sword drawn ready for the battle.....come what may....

good for you! don't be discouraged...

Dave
 
Carl,
Your valve looks like it could have been formed on the end of a longer bar and the milling action done before cutting the now finished part free from the parent stock. An extra inch or so to grip in the chuck would do wonders your nerves! I had trouble with engine kits where they expected you to make 1/2 inch long piston from a 5/8 inch long piece of metal. :'(
Just be glad neither man nor machine was badly damaged , not to mention the laundry issue! :big:
Dave
 
Robert: Thanks. I think you're right about what accuracy is required.
Dave(steamer): Thanks. No not discouraged. Hardly. As you noted...I learned something and that's worth something.
Dave(DavesWimshurst): Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Thanks for the confirmation.
 
It didn't help that (despite warnings) I turned the RT the wrong way.

Remember this?

Sounds childish but do it anyway. Next time you're deep in some complex RT job you may thank me for the suggestion.

Whoever wrote the latter must have had your best interests at heart. :)

Two remarks...

Dave's advice is the key lesson to take away from this mishap. I'll even shout it...

NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DO SO.

Parts with "handles" are just so much easier to work with that, when thinking through the machining of a part before starting work, it's worth trying to "design in" a handle that can be cut away as a last or near last step. An essential part of this "thinking through" process is visualizing how the part will be held at every stage of its machining. Think about the forces that will be exerted on the part by each machining operation. How will the part be "backed up" so it can resist this force?

I mentioned earlier that I don't like 3jaw chucks on RTs and you've demonstrated one of the reasons why I have that opinion. RT operations often involve applying parallel-to-RT-table forces to small parts and a 3jaw doesn't provide a secure resistance to such forces.
A table-hole plug with a pin that fit the central hole on the part and a clamp would have been a far better option for the part as shown (or if it were a part that couldn't have a handle to hold it in the 3jaw).

Second remark...

It's not possible to write an "instruction book" to be used by a novice for a simple project.

I didn't say it was difficult; I said it was impossible. Even the most skilled members on this forum couldn't write such a book for the simple reason that they couldn't ever completely anticipate all the quandries a novice could face. It's impossible for a moderately skilled person to be aware of all the unconscious decisions he makes in getting a familiar-to-him job done. Don't believe me? Try writing an "instruction book" for your wife describing how to do some simple task she's never done (e.g. replacing a faucet washer) and then watch what happens when she attempts to "do it by the book".
 
mklotz said:
Remember this?

I did...that's why the "(despite warnings)". :)

mklotz said:
NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DO SO.

Ow. I already have tinnitus. :) I won't assume anyone thinks I should have known this before now. I'll take it as an important tip...as well as the tips on 'thinking through'. Another skill to develop...not a 'born with skill'. Thanks.

mklotz said:
RT operations often involve applying parallel-to-RT-table forces to small parts and a 3jaw doesn't provide a secure resistance to such forces.

Which is why I try to ask 'why' when someone states how to do something or what to use. Knowing the 'why' is the important part of learning. Maybe it should be obvious...but it isn't always.


mklotz said:
It's not possible to write an "instruction book" to be used by a novice for a simple project.
I didn't say it was difficult; I said it was impossible.

True enough...to a point. I'm sure you didn't mean instruction manuals should be dispensed with. While the manual can't be all things to all people, there should be a level of expected quality. Particularly with kits that profess to be for the beginner. A section on safety perhaps? A section on basic techniques?

I was not expecting a micro-step by micro-step instruction manual. Nor was I expecting a manual that professed to be for the beginner...not to be for the beginner. And they were pretty clear about who the intended audience was.

I probably came across as putting too much blame on the manual. I apologize for that. I don't mean to cop out. Ultimately...it's my responsibility alone.

My real complaint, for which I won't back down, is quality. Blatant poor quality is simply not acceptable. In anything. Which leaves open the question..."so just what is quality?" :)

I don't want to sound as if I've been ragged on. I haven't been and I don't feel that way. I have absolutely no complaints with any member of this forum.

...I have a horrible feeling this is not going to go the way I intended...
 
Carl,

I'm not ragging on you (although I couldn't resist the I-told-you-so). Remember, I'm trying to use your thread to leave behind lessons learned for the future newbies who, I hope, will be directed to this thread for an at-length demonstration of what's involved in building a first engine (I know this isn't your first) starting from near zero experience.

The stuff that's "shouted" in all caps is to alert these future readers to the lesson learned and what nugget of instruction they should carry away from the operation described. It's not meant to chide you. In the future, I'll try to make that more explicit in the text when I do it.

No, I'm not suggesting instruction manuals should be foregone. If I buy a camera, I want a complete manual that describes all the not-so-obvious functions and how to access them.
But this is different. It can be safely assumed that everyone knows what a camera is for and roughly how it works. All that must be described is the peculiarities of the model to hand. It doesn't need to address all cameras and the art and zen of photography.

An instruction manual for machining an engine is a whole different thing. There's a wealth of tools that may be useful and available and a plethora of ways to accomplish any given operation. There's a minor infinity of associated safety issues. No author could ever hope to cover it all and, even if he did, the resulting six volume tome would be unwieldy, unreadable and unusable. I mentioned before that the instruction from this forum is reactive - we don't address the problem until it arises. None of us thought to tell you, a priori, about keeping handles on parts. In this sense, we've proven exactly what I said about the impossibility of writing an instruction manual. It just didn't occur to us because most of us do it without thinking about it.

Your manual, bad though it may be, still has some utility (beyond the heat it would supply in the fireplace :) ). For the novice isolated somewhere away from mentors, unaware of on-line fora such as this, it might be very useful. He'd still discover the same problems with it you have, but he would be so glad for any help he'd probably overlook them.

I think you already know what to do. Read the manual for whatever useful hints it may supply, disregard what seems wrong or inapplicable to you and flesh out the techniques you need with the forum. If it makes you feel any better, you should see how I rant and rave about some of the how-to articles I read in the amateur metalworking magazines. My wife is known to moan when a new issue arrives.

 
zeeprogrammer said:
I probably came across as putting too much blame on the manual. I apologize for that. I don't mean to cop out. Ultimately...it's my responsibility alone.


I don't want to sound as if I've been ragged on. I haven't been and I don't feel that way. I have absolutely no complaints with any member of this forum.

...I have a horrible feeling this is not going to go the way I intended...

Dont fret too much about it, your a software guy, you haven't spent your years head, neck and ears in the greasy nut and bolt land. With those years behind, many have learned the hard way what not to do. It becomes second nature, well hope so. Like hitting a tranny gear with a ball peen hammer, Why Not? Hardened steel fractures easily, little bit fly's of and penetrates arm, blood goes spurting across room (120 psi blood pressure sure sends a stream a-flying) But this i learned some 40 years ago, dont even think about it now, just know not to do it.

Your gonna have Trouser Changing experiences, best you can do is look over the situation and try to visualize what can go wrong relative to where you are. Avoid being in the path of the flying objects. When I cut trees dfown for firewood the "Bride" insist on hanging around, usually right where the tree will fall, and then I'm the bad guy asking her to move farther away, it just doesn't sink in :) No way you can cover them all. Each "Test" will build upon the previous and before long you'll be writing a best seller of your Road to Success. Ok may not a best seller :)

Robert
 
Foozer said:
Dont fret too much about it, your a software guy, you haven't spent your years head, neck and ears in the greasy nut and bolt land. With those years behind, many have learned the hard way what not to do.

Your gonna have Trouser Changing experiences, best you can do is look over the situation and try to visualize what can go wrong relative to where you are. Avoid being in the path of the flying objects.

Zee,

Robert is spot on here. Experience only comes from experiencing the good the bad and the ugly, (just ask Clint Eastwood). As one who has the unfortunate trait of learning the hard way the lessons have been "Hammered Home" over 4 decades. In less than a year your efforts and ability to learn are becoming legendary.

Best Regards
Bob
 
Marv, Robert, and Bob...

Thanks. And thanks for understanding.
Obviously...I have some frustration. I'm past it.

On another note...I was feeling a little low with how this thread has been 'hijacked' (that's too strong a word) on occasion with rants and frustrations etc. On the other hand...for some of us...it's a part of learning. Some beginners may as well know it's not easy. But despite the occasional

:mad: ??? ::) :-[ :'( :rant: :Doh: :shrug:

it's a whole lot of fun and worth getting to

;D :big: :bow: Rof} Thm: :idea: th_wav.

Well worth it. And again, I have to say, this forum helps make it fun and worthwhile.

My intent is to do another of these. Oh yeah. I ain't going away.

At some point I'll be asking for help in choosing an appropriate project. No suggestions yet please. I'm developing a list of requirements, desires, and ideas that we can hash over.

Best regards,
 
;) ;D

Hi Zee,

First off let me say it is VERY rare to come up against a new machinist with your DETERMINATION.
I am extremely impressed with your attitude to not giving up, where many others would.

As has been said, by many of the other guys, put this one (and all the previous ones) down to experience, we have all been there (and most will do so again)..... power to your elbow my good man.

Just an observation on the last PRACTICE PART ;D ;D.......which may or may not have a bearing on the outcome....but, which way were you running your mill spindle when using your slitting saw?
From the photo's in your post number 302 the tooth direction on the saw blade would suggest 'REVERSE' running (spindle).
If not, and you were running the spindle in the normal 'FORWARDS' direction then the blade is mounted the wrong way round...( the teeth should face the other way)...... as a result the forces on the cutter, and the job in hand, would have been far higher than they should have been, since the saw would be trying to cut with the BACK SIDE of the teeth (i.e. rubbing it's way through the metal)..... this in turn would put far more strain on the chuck mounting of the part leading to it being moved/ejected.

If, on the other hand, you were in fact running the spindle in 'REVERSE' then the teeth are facing in the correct direction, however, the forces on the saw holder are now such that you would run a severe risk of the blade clamp screw being loosened by the cutting pressure.

Just something to consider before/when you get to the same stage on the replacement part.

Keep up the good work, you are doing extremely well so far, and soon you will have a complete, and running, engine.

Best regards.

SandyC ;D ;)
 
Sandy,

Yikes! Good catch. I hadn't noticed that. If he's running the saw backwards, it's no wonder it pushed the work out of the chuck. (Yet another thing one wouldn't think to put in the instruction manual.)

Carl,

Your rants and frustrations don't constitute hijacking - besides, you can't hijack a thread you started. Venting is good - ask your psychiatrist.

You're a very brave guy to publicize the difficulties you've encountered. Most folks wouldn't be comfortable doing that. Your straightforwardness and honesty is what makes this such a good thread. Keep on keeping on. You'll get there.
 
SandyC said:
Just an observation on the last PRACTICE PART ;D ;D.......which may or may not have a bearing on the outcome....but, which way were you running your mill spindle when using your slitting saw?

:hDe:
My 'shelf of shame' is only exceeded by my 'shelf of idiocy'. :Doh:
I mean good grief.
I can't seem to do what should be the simplest things right.
Really really embarrassing...and I must confess it.

The saw is upside down. Oh man.

Well it should be pretty clear now...I may know my programming (I've never seen a backward's 1 or 0)...but hoo boy...I'm one big greenie here. Big big greenie.

And...I can't get the saw off. Is nice and tight.
And there's no reverse on the mill.

Did I ruin the saw? Well we'll see.

I am definitely going to start another thread/project after this.
I must redeem myself. Surely I can. (Picture a smiley praying here.)

Thanks SandyC.

I can't help but be laughing at myself.

Just saw your post Marv. How opportune. Goodie...I'm brave. I want to be good. Rof}

 
Foo. That saw's not going anywhere.

Please continue with what you're doing while our 'hero' orders up another arbor and slitting saw. As soon as he stops blubbering.

Tried WD-40. Tried the freezer.
Heat?
I'll take any suggestions.
Right now the best one I have is the landfill.
 

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