Let's talk cutter grinders

[Richard Hed]

Hello Richard,

The Kennet is not to complicated to build. I got the castings from Model Engineering Services (Ivan Law). All the sliding surfaces were pre ground as I recall. Not sure if castings are still available. Have you looked at the Worden?

The Quorn on the other hand is a major undertaking and to be honest, unless one enjoys it as a project on its own, it would be difficult to justify. At the speed I work I recon it would take a couple of years to build another, with all the accessories. Hence my liking of the Kennet which is very simple and easy to set up, the Quorn is not, which is possibly why Professor Chaddock wrote a 128 page book to explain how to use it.

I think if I were starting again I may go down the Worden route with a few tweaks so that it is as capable as the Kennet.


Simon

Everything I've heard about the Quorn (There was a short story about the "Mightiest Quorn" in the 60's that I read which this always makes me thimpfk of), I will avoid it like the latest plague (whichever that might be THIS week). I really can't see why this woud be so complicate. 90% of what I need a grinder for is to sharpen drill bits. THe rest is a need for sharpening mill ends. There are occassionally something else. I also grind tool bits, but mostly that is done by hand.

 

[timo_gross]

Everything I've heard about the Quorn (There was a short story about the "Mightiest Quorn" in the 60's that I read which this always makes me thimpfk of), I will avoid it like the latest plague (whichever that might be THIS week). I really can't see why this woud be so complicate. 90% of what I need a grinder for is to sharpen drill bits. THe rest is a need for sharpening mill ends. There are occassionally something else. I also grind tool bits, but mostly that is done by hand.

Yes, it seems to develop a pattern
I guess that was the origin of the Quorn,
"the wizzard" was not yet available back in the day, would have been probably too expensive anyway. Some tool, not a drill, wanted to be invented and then put to life.

Do not forget it is called a cutter grinder not cutter touchupper or cutter sharpener.

Timo

Yes and how long is a piece of string?
IMHO it all depends on what on what you want to grind. ....


Regards

Norman


and I have on extended loan a Black and Decker professional drill grinder

Cheers Timo

 

[goldstar31]

Everything I've heard about the Quorn (There was a short story about the "Mightiest Quorn" in the 60's that I read which this always makes me thimpfk of), I will avoid it like the latest plague (whichever that might be THIS week). I really can't see why this woud be so complicate. 90% of what I need a grinder for is to sharpen drill bits. THe rest is a need for sharpening mill ends. There are occassionally something else. I also grind tool bits, but mostly that is done by hand.

All to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Chaddock never published the drawings im the 60's

 

[goldstar31]

I think if I were starting again I may go down the Worden route with a few tweaks so that it is as capable as the Kennet.


Simon

Work has xome to a stop until I get more and more light to attempt to compensate for one and a bit weary old eyes. I DID open Pandora's box that makes up the huge number of bits of the new Quorn, In another box was a bewildering set of MORE grinding wheels and struggling again, I sort of msnaged to get the gist of 'the neccesity of puting all these things on mandre ls and then dress them with a dianond to regularly to be able to work to'a tenth of a thous- or better' Surprisingly, the recommendations for the no longer savailable Kennet and the newer Worden id exactly the same.
I sort of looked at my existing grinding department-- and realised that U could improve-- a LOT.

 

[goldstar31]

Yes, it seems to develop a pattern
I guess that was the origin of the Quorn,





Cheers Timo

No! The Quorn is a very old design and most of us oldies agree that the Deckel grinder is the most likely predecessor. Certainly, the original machine was not made on a 'just after the War' Myford. It was made. on a flat bed Drummond. I had a Round bed one! Drummonds were in existence during WW1. Later, the Myford firm took them over. It is tortology like Shakespeare's Chiming Clocks in Ancirnt Rome.
Looking as best that I can, the Quorn does not run on a water lubricant, it is essentially a run dry and dusty machine. Chaddock-- and now Kirk Burwell both suggest thart as the thing is so light, it might be prudent to take it-- outside the workshop.
Lookng back to the life of Chaddock, amingst his other attributes, he was 'in' on the Atomic bomb Manhatta Ptoject but these were the days when. there were no milling machines until Ned Westbury produced a crude mill drill. I made one - Heaven knows when. Then improvements came from Arnold Throp of Dore Engineering who probably has a hand in the design of the Kenne t with Ivan Law of Model Engineering Services which also produced castings etc for Chaddock's Quorns. Mine came from there!
It seems that Chaddock was hell bent on making a Vee6 and later a Vee8 engine and the Quorn was used to make the 1/10th diamer cutters. However, the Quorn then could not shar pen them and new ones had to be made and made.
However the Deckel was very limite d in versatility and it was intended to ,make engraving cutters Chaddockbeing a Professor of Engineering and Principal of Loughborough College expanded and e xpanded the design to sharpennall sorts of tooling- including hacksaw blades.
Over many years, the Quorn was improved by many wor kers. Hugill was one and Amos enabled to 'spindle cartridge ot surface grin on a vertical mill. Today, the cheapness and avaiability of the ER collet system ( and also the 65C system from a non approved supllier) has extended the Quorn's ability. The workhead has been vastly improved and simlified and the general availability of milling machines in the home workshop has simplified things- a little.
It has been copied and it has been constructed without castings.
For the needs of those still in the little home workshop, it still has a place

 

[BaronJ]

Hi Norman, Guys,

The "Quorn" is basically a "Deckel" on steroids ! With all those ball handles looking like an octopus is quite apt !

Looking at my much modified "Brooks" putting a handle on all the adjustable parts it wouldn't look too much different to the Quorn !

 

[goldstar31]

Hi Norman, Guys,

The "Quorn" is basically a "Deckel" on steroids ! With all those ball handles looking like an octopus is quite apt !

Looking at my much modified "Brooks" putting a handle on all the adjustable parts it wouldn't look too much different to the Quorn !

I have the 'old' Quorn and the deckel clone end to end and the front 'bed bars with the micrometer adjustment are almost identical and there are ALL these tentacles - which people call ball handles.

THen, there ALL these graduuations upon graduations. Oh dear YES!

Thinking about graduations, the rather exotic Potts home made affair might be employed with the Quorn-- sineday

Cheers John and Thank You

 

[timo_gross]

No! The Quorn is a very old design and most of us oldies agree that the Deckel grinder is the most likely predecessor. .....

It has been copied and it has been constructed without castings.
For the needs of those still in the little home workshop, it still has a place

Hello Norman,

Yes, that is what I tried to point out in reply to the "unneccesary" complication of the Quorn. The Quorn was made to produce entire tools not only sharpen existing ones was my guess. But as I understand from the information I red, it was always a DIY-project for the enthusiast and occasional user never a "production machine".
A machine like this can be bought nowadays. It only grinds the tip of the endmill, not the flutes. Basically an upgraded drill sharpener. It produces a predifined geometry. Easy to use, very few adjustment knobs, that the user needs to tweak. (or can tweak depends on the viewpoint). To some extend the machines are between expensive and more expensive. Suppliers of the more expensive ones, will be able to adjust the tip geometry to match a certain customer specification. There it is: Not complicated, quick to use, easy to learn (takes 10 min with a good instructor). Prices, geometries, quality of machine and grinding wheel, covered flute counts. All this varies a lot between the lookalikes. About same price as my recend 2nd hand purchase.

To cover different tasks, you can end up with a whole collection of those green machines. In my opinion more suitable for factories, that sharpen a lot of the same style tools frequently.

Quorn was also designed during a time were you could not just buy a carbide cutter. An old design indeed. Predating all the full automatic CNC machines for decades.
I would be curious to see how an endmill was produced in mass production 60 or 70 years ago.

So in your opinion it would be a possible option and not sacrilegious to make it with bar stock for the big parts?
I ordered a set of plans quite a while ago, then I compared prices and tried figure out options.

Did I understand correct, that you are starting a complete new built of the Quorn machine? At first I thought you are only upgrading some parts of it. I would be exited to see some pictures when you start your production of parts.

Greetings Timo

 

[goldstar31]

Hello Norman,



Did I understand correct, that you are starting a complete new built of the Quorn machine? At first I thought you are only upgrading some parts of it. I would be exited to see some pictures when you start your production of parts.

Greetings Timo

Rhetorically -- Yes

 

[goldstar31]

I may appear rather churlish but I am 91 and yrddyerday, I was advised of another visit to hos[ital trgarding my lack of vision.
Model engineering is simply a hobby. Well it is to me. I can't use a calera or a phone- which I've repeated umpteen times


Best Wishes

Norman

The news broke this AM that ONE HUNDRED MILLION vaccone dozes are being given to less fortunate countries. The dozes are either free or are at cost. Shareholders in Astra Zeneca are foregoing the return on their investment. I am a major shareholder in a REAL and needdy world.
I feel good.
Knowing ehere priorities lie is important.
I have a Quorn and whatever. 50 Million people are not interested

 

[Brian Hutchings]

I seem to remember that Prof Chaddock made the Quorn so that he could make the cutting tools to build a working model of the BRM V16 racing car engine.
It was intended more for tool making than just resharpening used tools. Once you realise this then I think than criticism of its complexity is most unfair.
Brian

 

[timo_gross]

I seem to remember that Prof Chaddock made the Quorn so that he could make the cutting tools to build a working model of the BRM V16 racing car engine.
It was intended more for tool making than just resharpening used tools. Once you realise this then I think than criticism of its complexity is most unfair.
Brian

Exactly the point, that the complexity is not built into it to "Confuse the Russians".
For just sharpening twist drills it is maybe not the easiest alternative. It was another time also. Today the variety of available tools is much greater, entry level tools are more affordable (I am guessing that).
And the variety of easy to use specialized machines grows constantly.
Other machining tasks can be handled by a CNC movement, allowing to use more simple tools instead of form tools.

Todays experiments with the 2nd hand japanese machine. (I do not own a Quorn)

bought some 6 mm drill blanks yesterday. Tried to convert the blank into a tool today.


Out came this (don*t laugh ) Setting up these grinders without any clue by trial and error. It is a challenge. Outcome looked very odd, I could invent some story that it has a purpose, but it is just what came out of the combination of angles and trying to cut a flute.
It drills very good in wood and plastic, because of the big space for chips. Drilling mild steel worked reasonable well. Very thin web and small chisel point.

I had another look at my spot drill and tried to copy its "look", this was the result. Looks almost like a real drill and it even drills holes into steel. 90° tip angle.

What I find confusing is that the cutter grinders seem to be all "one off" designs with a lot of differences, operation concepts and accessories. Very complex. I learned about the Deckel machines "S1" and "Martin Deckel S11"



Greetings Timo

 

[Richard Hed]

Todays experiments:

View attachment 126424
bought some 6 mm drill blanks yesterday.

View attachment 126425
Out came this (don*t laugh ) Setting up these grinders without any clue by trial and error. I is a challenge. Outcome looked very odd, I could invent some story that it has a purpose, but it is just what came out of the combination of angles and trying to cut a flute.
It drills very good in wood and plastic, because of the big space for chips. Drilling mild steel worked reasonable well. Very thin web and small chisel point.
View attachment 126426
I had another look at my spot drill and tried to copy its "look", this was the result. Looks almost like a real drill and it even drills holes into steel. 90° tip angle.

Greetings Timo

looks goo to me, what are you complaining about? Yes, the web looks a bit thin but you can fix that, right? Also the point you can make less pointed., 135?

 

[timo_gross]

looks goo to me, what are you complaining about? Yes, the web looks a bit thin but you can fix that, right? Also the point you can make less pointed., 135?

Hello,

Not really complaining, just experimenting. I start to realize that it is not easy to find example setups. Because every machine comes with a different concept and adjustments are not comparable. I try to just get a feel for the geometry and how things are operated.

Changing tip angles can be done, today I wanted to create a "spot drill" so I used 90°, because that I saw on spot drills.

Cheers Timo

 

[Richard Hed]

Hello,

Not really complaining, just experimenting. I start to realize that it is not easy to find example setups. Because every machine comes with a different concept and adjustments are not comparable. I try to just get a feel for the geometry and how things are operated.

Changing tip angles can be done, today I wanted to create a "spot drill" so I used 90°, because that I saw on spot drills.

Cheers Timo

Everything I say has to be in the form of a joke--also, everything I say is a lie. That last one I told my son when he was about 10--it threw him for a loop.

 

[BaronJ]

Todays experiments with the 2nd hand japanese machine. (I do not own a Quorn)
View attachment 126424
bought some 6 mm drill blanks yesterday. Tried to convert the blank into a tool today.

View attachment 126425
Out came this (don*t laugh ) Setting up these grinders without any clue by trial and error. It is a challenge. Outcome looked very odd,

Greetings Timo

Hi Timo,

I actually think that once you have hardened it and got the lip angles correct (90 Degrees) and four facet, you will have a very good spotting drill. The wide flute would also make it good at clearing the chips in a softer materiel.

Well done

 

[ajoeiam]

Exactly the point, that the complexity is not built into it to "Confuse the Russians".
For just sharpening twist drills it is maybe not the easiest alternative. It was another time also. Today the variety of available tools is much greater, entry level tools are more affordable (I am guessing that).
And the variety of easy to use specialized machines grows constantly.
Other machining tasks can be handled by a CNC movement, allowing to use more simple tools instead of form tools.

Todays experiments with the 2nd hand japanese machine. (I do not own a Quorn)

bought some 6 mm drill blanks yesterday. Tried to convert the blank into a tool today.


Out came this (don*t laugh ) Setting up these grinders without any clue by trial and error. It is a challenge. Outcome looked very odd, I could invent some story that it has a purpose, but it is just what came out of the combination of angles and trying to cut a flute.
It drills very good in wood and plastic, because of the big space for chips. Drilling mild steel worked reasonable well. Very thin web and small chisel point.

I had another look at my spot drill and tried to copy its "look", this was the result. Looks almost like a real drill and it even drills holes into steel. 90° tip angle.

What I find confusing is that the cutter grinders seem to be all "one off" designs with a lot of differences, operation concepts and accessories. Very complex. I learned about the Deckel machines "S1" and "Martin Deckel S11"



Greetings Timo

I have been following this thread with some interest.

Am not finding it easy to find which machine you are actually using.
Your results are fascinating.
If you would perhaps share the machine information one more time - - - and - - - - what were your settings when you produced each of the pictured items.
(I find I learn more from my 'not goods' than I do from the 'good' items. Am thinking that your first example might be quite similar to the 'parabolic' drills recommended for aluminum.
(Hopefully not too terse - - - grin!!)

TIA

 

[timo_gross]

Hi Timo,

I actually think that once you have hardened it and got the lip angles correct (90 Degrees) and four facet, you will have a very good spotting drill. The wide flute would also make it good at clearing the chips in a softer materiel.

Well done

Hi actually that is all ground from a hardened HSS blank, similar to square lathe bits. The facets are not so easy to catch on camera. Drilling works fine.

 

[timo_gross]

I have been following this thread with some interest.

Am not finding it easy to find which machine you are actually using.
Your results are fascinating.
If you would perhaps share the machine information one more time - - - and - - - - what were your settings when you produced each of the pictured items.
(I find I learn more from my 'not goods' than I do from the 'good' items. Am thinking that your first example might be quite similar to the 'parabolic' drills recommended for aluminum.
(Hopefully not too terse - - - grin!!)

TIA

Hello,

it is that 2nd hand machine that I bought last Saturday, it was delivered on Monday. Now I was exited to show my first steps on using it.
At the moment I am limited to 6mm blanks, it came only with one collet. Some (few) more collets are ordered.
They are pricey, so there will never be a complete set of them.

 

[BaronJ]

Hi actually that is all ground from a hardened HSS blank, similar to square lathe bits. The facets are not so easy to catch on camera. Drilling works fine.

Hi Timo,

Thanks, here in the UK "Drill rod" or "Silver Steel rod" is supplied soft and it is left for you to harden ! I wasn't aware that you could buy pre-hard drill blanks, here it would be HSS tool blanks. I actually have some 1/8" and 3/32" sold as 2.5 mm and 3 mm.