Horizontal Mill Engine From Kit

[zeeprogrammer]

to help Zee understand an learn good shop practices, and I hoped that he would appreciate it for the reasons I had. I Think he did,

I certainly did. And not to take away from that, I've appreciated every post in this thread...not to mention this forum.

but he is a free thinking person like most of us and can choose whatever path he likes.

True enough. What often happens is that despite good advice, a person may still take a different direction. Not all of the information may have been provided, assumptions may not apply, etc. Simple examples include:

"just put it in a square collet and..."...except I don't have a square collet (whether mentioned or not).

"just apply this method and...."...except I haven't developed that skill yet and despite the confidence every else has in me.

"just do this...that...and the other thing..."...except I want to learn how use this thingie here and that wasn't part of the method.

I'm not talking about this thread and or any person in particular.

I'm just saying that, in general, good advice is only part of the equation that goes into making a decision.

And if you don't agree with me...then my advice is for you to...

:big:

 

[mklotz]

The rod looks great, Zee. And it will look better with the ends rounded over but later on that.

Some minor inaccuracy in the separation of the holes is literally of no consequence. Remember that this part connects to the valve rod which is threaded into the valve nut. That means that the valve motion can be adjusted by rotating the valve nut. That provides a lot of latitude for correcting for small discrepancies.

I don't remember how I tapered the connecting rod (part that goes from crank disk to crosshead slipper). Looking at my engine, it looks like it would be easy to use the compound on *my* lathe (may not be the case on your lathe). Hold the big end in a collet and support the little end with a live center while turning the taper. Leave enough extra stock on the little end to form the required center hole and then machine the center hole away after the taper has been turned.

If I couldn't do it as described above, I would simply file the taper by eye. Again, the exact dimension doesn't matter and the human eye is really good on very small parts. After all, the taper is there for aesthetic reasons and it's the eye that captures asesthetics. So, why not do it by eye?

Regardless of how you finally do it, it only has to look good. The taper doesn't have to fit into anything.

 

[Metal Butcher]

Zee, I agree with every thing you said. It takes a good amount of time to develop the skills needed to build simple projects like the ones we build as a pastime. Along the way its easy to avoid the things that need to be faced immediately, so that poor shop practice does not become a habit. I'm sure that many of us develop a certain style that may include a few bad habits. I'd like to think that bringing a little awareness of this fact to the surface might help some one to enjoy there hobby a little more, and in a safer manner.

-MB

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks Marv. Filing by hand was the original approach (stated in the instructions but what the instructions didn't include was support at the end...which I will do in any case).

I'm going to at least set the compound up and see what's involved in using the lathe to do the taper. Doing a taper from the end of the part is one thing...having the added 'complexity' of the block in the way is another. The other concern I have is the use of the compound feed. I can't say the lathe is adjusted well enough for that.

Most likely I'll end up using a parting tool to work/clean the ends and then use a hand file. (Part of my 'reasoning' has been Dean's recent thread on filing. I've been doing a little bit of that...I'm enjoying it...and I've been somewhat successful at it.)

MB...thanks for reminding me...when I started this hobby last Feb and joined this forum...I talked about not developing bad habits. It's very easy to do...whether I'm just beginning or even once I've gained some experience. Always a danger.

So...right now I have the little piston rod sitting in a collet block...ready to get milled, slotted, and drilled.

 

[Deanofid]

I tried to describe the proper machining methods to help Zee understand an learn good shop practices, and I hoped that he would appreciate it for the reasons I had. I Think he did, but he is a free thinking person like most of us and can choose whatever path he likes.

MB, I didn't disagree with your description or your explained method, at all. I made it clear early on that I would do it in a similar manner.

In my opinion the use of a file where a proper cutting tool or attachment such a ball cutter could be made or used, is simply a "short cut method". I personally use short cut methods all the time. Nothing wrong with being a little lazy.

I really don't understand the insistence that filing is some kind of short cut, or a lazy way of doing things. Zee said he didn't have any profile tools, and no mechanical taper attachment for his lathe.

I still feel that the use a file were an accurate and repeatable cutting tool or fixture such as a ball turning tool could be made or used, is to me nothing more than a short cut method. And I find my self occasionally using a file on a spinning work piece. I believe that this is not a safe practice, and I would NOT suggest it to anyone.

Again, he doesn't have a ball turner.
As far as filing on the lathe goes. It is an accepted, common, and recommended practice. The recommendations, by the way, come from the likes of the Sheldon Machine Co. and South Bend Lathe Works, among others.

Sorry but I respectfully disagree With you saying, "And filing IS a machining method"
I never considered it so, and I looked for solid proof of my belief in the event that I've been wrong all along. Maybe I'm still wrong.

Here's what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machining

MB, if we are going to use wiki as our bench mark, (eh), then you may find this interesting:

"Machining in the mid 19th century was heavily dependent on filing, because milling practice was slowly evolving out of its infancy."


Here's the link to the complete page;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_(tool)

If it was a machining method then, I don't see why it wouldn't be a machining method now. We can disagree on it if you like, and we will probably both be just as happy with what we think about it.

Dean

 

[Metal Butcher]

I have seen many models that were produced in the 19th century by model engineer's.
Their use of files is very evident in the quality of their work. This is a different century with modern tool and techniques. Today's standards can be and are much higher if one wishes to pursue the advancement of their skills. Filing a spinning work piece with a hand held tool is not a safe practice and I don't care who recommended it 50 or 100 years ago, seriously!

If some one can show me a safer way of doing machine work, than I'll listen, otherwise , no thanks.

I think its best that we end this discussion by agreeing that were both stubborn.

-MB

 

[Deanofid]

You certainly don't have to believe me. When the people who actually made the lathes we still use today approve it as a normal machining practice, and when you can still buy brand new long angle lathe files from Nicholson, it makes it hard to argue the point.

Nicholson even has (new, as in current) charts for recommended lathe spindle speeds for filing on the lathe that provide surface feet per minute for optimum finish, along with cut recommendations for what file to use for press fit, running fit, and fine finish.

Search google for "Nicholson Guide to Filing".

Dean

 

[Metal Butcher]

You certainly don't have to believe me. When the people who actually made the lathes we still use today approve it as a normal machining practice, and when you can still buy brand new long angle lathe files from Nicholson, it makes it hard to argue the point.

Nicholson even has (new, as in current) charts for recommended lathe spindle speeds for filing on the lathe that provide surface feet per minute for optimum finish, along with cut recommendations for what file to use for press fit, running fit, and fine finish.

Search google for "Nicholson Guide to Filing".

Dean

Its not simply a matter of believing or not believing. That's not the point. I know that what you say is true. However, filing in a lathe is a dangerous practice, and their are pitfalls with recommending its use on an open and public forum. A new member may not have the experience and common sense required to avoid a serious injury. This is something worth considering.

The reason these files are still available today is to satisfy buyers like you and me who provide revenue for the manufacturer. Nothing more, nothing less.

-MB

 

[dsquire]

I have seen many models that were produced in the 19th century by model engineer's.
Their use of files is very evident in the quality of their work. This is a different century with modern tool and techniques. Today's standards can be and are much higher if one wishes to pursue the advancement of their skills. Filing a spinning work piece with a hand held tool is not a safe practice and I don't care who recommended it 50 or 100 years ago, seriously!

If some one can show me a safer way of doing machine work, than I'll listen, otherwise , no thanks.

I think its best that we end this discussion by agreeing that were both stubborn.

-MB

OK. Here is a safer way to do machine work since some people think using a file and common sense is too dangerous. It is called using a CNC lathe Remotely. You have robots to load the lathe and robots to turn the lathe on. These are kept inside a bullet proof compound to prevent injury to any humans in case they were not using their common sense and something goes wrong. You also turn the robots on remotely.

This is my observation of how one person feels it should be done, it is not the way I would do it. I want to be able to use files with common sense.

How is your lathe set up?

Cheers

Don

 

[Metal Butcher]

dsquire, I mentioned in an earlier post that I have used and I will continue to occasionally file on the lathe. I feel that I have enough common sense to avoid a serious injury.

I wish I could believe that every one out there that comes across this forum has the same experience and common sense.

Since I'm comfortable with a hands on approach to model engine building, a computer controlled, fully enclosed, machining center would not satisfy my needs.

However, I might consider a computer contolled swarf-bot! ;D

-MB

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Here's the connecting rod...or something like it ;D

For this step I used a live center (but apparently didn't do a good job of that...it began to wobble near the end of this). I used a parting tool to define the left and right ends of the tapered round. I parted down near to diameter and then used a left and right cutter to turn to the bigger diameter. Repeated the parting tool to get closer to the finished diameter and turned to outer diameter again.

At one point I made my 2nd mistake. Yeah I know...I didn't describe the 1st mistake...I don't know what it was...but I'm sure it's there. ;D (For all I know, I should have lost track by now.) The 2nd mistake was forgetting the bevel on the caliper. I kept measuring and cutting and was getting no closer. Reversed the caliper and found I'd gone to far. You'll see that later.

Then filed and filed. Used the parting tool some more to get to finished diameter. Sanded and used a little brasso to see.

Then it was onto the mill. Squared and trimmed the ends (to same size for now) like I did for the eccentric rod. It went pretty well. But...

if you look closely at the left end you'll see that the top edge isn't sharp. You can also see it on the right end. I'm not sure what happened. It's almost like the stock wasn't centered in the chuck. The rod looks nicely centered in the block. I don't think it was the wobble because that would've been on one end only. So I have one edge beveled ;D.

Before trimming the other end to size, I drilled and reamed the holes. Then I trimmed the small end. I hand filed the chamfers.

The result...

And the discovering of another boo-boo. In my joy and happiness, I got a little carried away with sanding and managed to hit the rod. I took some brasso to it but didn't spend a lot of time (I wanted to get the pic done.) It actually looks worse in the pic. I may clean it up more later.

The other good news is that it fits the piston rod very nicely!

What's left? The flywheel mainly. Need to drill a hole in the crankshaft and finish the holes in the valve cover too. Then it's fitting and finishing. I'm also thinking of a clear plexi cover (like Marv's engine) so I can see the valve action. (Besides...so far the valve and nut are some of my most satisfying work.)

Actually...I wouldn't be surprised that I'll find myself remaking some parts. :big:

 

[mklotz]

Looks pretty damn good to me, Carl. You're really getting good at this stuff.

I expect to see a running engine in the next week.

Re plexi steam chest cover... Remember to remove it and use the brass cover if you ever run the engine under steam.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks very much Marv.

I doubt I'll make your deadline though. ;D

Going home for Thanksgiving next week. It'll be the biggest family gatherings (two of them) in several years.

Two days back here and then a quick trip just with 'T'. Mainly to 'get away' but she wanted some miles to keep her standing with the airline. So I gotta pay too. ;D

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Just wanted to add...the thread on filing by Dean, and the tips and techniques from Dean, MB, and Marv and everybody were real helpful and timely for doing the connecting rod. For example, the safe file...it turned out I had a file with a safe edge on one side. Real handy when I was working near the shoulders.

I might have the terminology wrong..in a rush...have to get out and do some real work. Rats...3 typos in that one sentence. Must....slow....down....

Misspelled every one of those last 3 words too. Sheesh.

[EDIT: 'real work' = 'her work']

 

[Deanofid]

Heck, that looks good, Zee. I'm glad you have "joy and happiness"! We should all have some of that. Maybe we should all build a con rod and get some!

Not criticizing your pics. Just noticed that hot spot on the con rod shaft.
It's sometimes difficult to get a detail pic on something as shiny as brass. Highlights blow out, and there goes the detail. Often, taping a plain piece of printer paper over the lamp will even out the light.

3 typos in that one sentence. Must....slow....down....

Misspelled every one of those last 3 words too. Sheesh.

Sometimes, you just quack me up, Zee.

Dean

 

[zeeprogrammer]

It got me. Stupidity got me.

I'm facing the flywheel. 1018. Getting long long curly strands.
I stop the lathe, pull the strands out, and start again.

I wasn't using pliers. Strand is razor sharp. Thumb slid right along it.

All cleaned and bandaged up. Got my pliers...at it again.

Now I just need to come up with a suitable story as to why there's a band-aid on my thumb so wife doesn't say 'See! See!'. I'm not too worried what you people will say. Your 'See! See!' doesn't carry the same weight. :big:

 

[Twmaster]

See! SEE!!

stickpoke

 

[ttrikalin]

Rof} Rof} Thm:

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Make no mistake...it was stupid (the chip strand thing).
I post it so that others will remember.

It's real easy to forget that a small lathe can hurt you. Sometimes it looks like a toy.
But it's not.

Thanks Dean. I did some 'fixing' on computer...I need to get a better setup.

Aw you guys...I knew it wouldn't be long. ;D

 

[Twmaster]

Yup, pretty easy to get hurt and a reminder (even if at our own expense) is not a waste.

I about took my fingernail off on a sharp end mill earlier this week. Never put your body parts anywhere near a moving spindle.