Cx701 lathe report

[Linz]

Here is the speed control board (aka a dc drive). It's function is to covert the 110vac to 90vdc. Line voltage is fed in via terminals 24 and 14 on the magnetic start switch to L1, L2 on the control board. Output is controlled by the pot connected to the P1, P2 and P3 terminals and output on the A+ and A- terminals on the board to terminals 5 and 7 on the forward/reverse switch and from the switch to the motor via terminals 6 on 2. The f/r switch just reverses the 5,7 connections to the 6,2 motor output for operation in opposite direction. Made by KB Electronics in Florida. KBLC-240D. Believe it is the same used in the cx601 mill. Makes sense, it's the same motor. I don't think they make these anymore although the current KBIC-240D is almost identical. These sell through various vendors in the US for $92usd + exchange rate + shipping. You may be able to source locally, there is a place in Edmonton that sells them for $172cad + gst.

 

[Linz]

All terminals, connections and functions on the magnetic start switch, f/r switch, door safety switch, fuses and holders were tested with my meter and all are good. There is 110v at the speed control L1,L2 connections but NO output on the A+ A- terminals. There doesn't appear to be any burnt diodes or scr's which are attached from the board to the heat sink with shcs, or on the board itself. I will not be testing individual board components. It looks like the problem is somewhere in the board. The board, as a whole will be replaced.

 

[Bazzer]

Linz

Go with your first inclination and ship it all back for a refund, I will be surprised if you are ever happy with these machines, you have technical ability and probably have high standards.

You have not started machining yet to see if there are mechanical defects as well!!

 

[Paul135]

Sorry to learn of your misfortune that the KB Electronics board has arrived effectively faulty. My own lathe, supplied from the UK, which looks very much like yours, made by Sumore Machinery in China (rebadged by many I think) had a copy of the KB board. After a couple of years this failed. I didn't have the electronics repair knowledge then that I have now. Investigations on the Internet showed this was a KB copy and that the KB boards were considered the best. So I ordered one, Installed it making wiring mods to make it easier to change in the even of a failure. Since, touch wood, no probs.

I have subsequently investigated the Chinese copy. These boards have 2 Triacs on them. Testing at component level showed they were blown. I ordered new Triacs and replacement power diodes as well (the row of 3 legged chips on the heat sink. When I can eventually get round to it I will do the repair and keep in stock as my mill has the same board. The Triac and diode failures can happen with no visible evidence. Only component testing will reveal which one is kaput.

Paul

 

[L98fiero]

I was guaranteed a ten year (acutally they said 'lifetime') warantee but when the crappy thing failed to work, it was MY responsibility to pay all technitians, transpo0rt and all the rest.

Richard, what you failed to realize was that 'lifetime' means the lifetime of the machine, i.e., until it dies, then you're on your own. That's like going to a muffler shop that will give a lifetime warranty on parts only so after two years you have to pay $800 to have a $50 muffler replaced.

 

[Linz]

Today has been 3 weeks since BusyBee told me they would send parts right away for my brand new DOA lathe and NOTHING. I have called several times and generally end up holding until you automatically get sent to voicemail. I did get someone to answer once yesterday but she just transferred me to another number where the above cycle was repeated. I have left several messages but apparently don't rate high enough for the courtesy of a return call. I realize I am not their only customer but c'mon.

 

[Linz]

Bring it to them on YOUR $? How far is it? This is not a nice thing to hear. I thot Busybee was supposed to be more responsible than that. I might understand it being late but not the irresponsibility part. Sounds like what they pull in the Philippines. I was guaranteed a ten year (acutally they said 'lifetime') warantee but when the crappy thing failed to work, it was MY responsibility to pay all technitians, transpo0rt and all the rest.

The local BusyBee store is within an hours drive. That's not really an issue. The problem is you can't just throw the machine in your pocket and head out. The Edmonton store carries NO parts and does NO service or repairs so even if you take the machine there it still has to be shipped to Ontario. After speaking with the head office rep I was more than willing to let them send me the parts, as he suggested, and perform the repairs myself. I have saved them hundreds by them not having to ship a 500+lb machine back and forth across the country as well as paying their employees to deal with the repair. While not necessarily overnight, these parts should have at least been couriered and received within a week. 3 weeks later and NOTHING. This is a brand new machine, I can only imagine what happens with something down the road. Their total lack of communication and what appears to be total indifference to customer satisfaction is what bothers me the most.

 

[awake]

Linz, I hate that you are having so much trouble - and with a brand-new machine, to boot!

It doesn't help you at all to say this, but your experience will be a useful "marker" in the ever-continuing discussion of whether to buy old iron or new. One of the major arguments against old iron is having to do repairs. Well ... !

This also points to the downside of newer technology. Belt- or gear-selected speed changes are not nearly as sexy as infinitely variable speed control, but a good old single-speed induction motor has a rugged simplicity that may be starting to sound pretty good right now!

Please note that I am NOT bashing either new iron or new tech. On the contrary, I love to work with new(er) tech, especially of the CNC variety. But it is useful to remember that the greater capability that comes with the new tech also comes at the cost of greater complexity, and consequently more ways for the system to fail. It is a trade-off that does not need to be feared or maligned, but does need to be recognized.

 

[packrat]

QUOTE..
"This also points to the downside of newer technology. Belt- or gear-selected speed changes are not nearly as sexy as infinitely variable speed control, but a good old single-speed induction motor has a rugged simplicity that may be starting to sound pretty good right now!"

awake You are so right about that statement.

 

[awake]

QUOTE..
"This also points to the downside of newer technology. Belt- or gear-selected speed changes are not nearly as sexy as infinitely variable speed control, but a good old single-speed induction motor has a rugged simplicity that may be starting to sound pretty good right now!"

awake You are so right about that statement.

There is a reason that I have simple old iron in my shop - a 70-year-old Cincinnati TrayTop lathe (gear selected speeds) and a ??-old BP JS head (mechanical vari-speed). The reason has nothing to do with being cheap. Nothing. Really!

The lathe runs on a single-phased motor that someone converted it to before I bought it. The mill runs on the original 3-phase motor, powered by a simple RPC that I put together out of a free scavenged motor and a few odds and ends. I know everyone says to use a VFD ... and it would be MUCH quieter than the RPC ... and the reason I have the latter is NOT because I was able to put it together for about $20. Definitely not. I am not cheap.

Well, not too cheap. Well, okay, I do have a tendency to find ways to re-purpose other people's junk rather than spend money on something new, but that has nothing to do with being cheap; it is simply a matter of being a good steward. I'm an environmentalist! Re-use, that's me. Nothing cheap about it. Really!

 

[Linz]

Linz

Go with your first inclination and ship it all back for a refund, I will be surprised if you are ever happy with these machines, you have technical ability and probably have high standards.

You have not started machining yet to see if there are mechanical defects as well!!

Yup. That's what I should have done. I'm almost thinking they have ignored the issue to push things past their 30 day return period, which it now is. After being unable to reach or speak with anyone in Ontario I called the local store late yesterday afternoon to inquire about returning the machines. He asked me what type of machines they were to which I responded, a mill and a lathe. He seemed totally indifferent to my request, never even asked what the problem was, and nonchalantly replied that I would just have to call the Head Office in Ontario and have them issue a return form.

I came across the whole machining thing kind of by accident while gathering information related to another hobby. I read up a bit on the topic and watched a few youtube videos. It all seemed interesting and I thought it might be a fun hobby to pursue. I decided I would buy a benchtop mill and lathe. I was fully aware that with my limited funds (and knowledge) that it would have to be cheap(relatively speaking), bottom of the line, good enough for at home hobby work, machines. Here, in Edmonton, you are very limited to where you can find such machines. KMS Tools, where they had a couple of KING brand machines, literally just sitting on the floor clumped with various other machine tools, not inspiring much of an "I can't wait to buy feeling" and BusyBee. The local BusyBee is a decent size. They have a fairly spacious well laid out showroom with the various machines set up on their respective stands. After speaking a bit with a couple of the staff there and even though they didn't have them currently available in-store, I decided to purchase the 601 mill and 701 lathe. I thought I was dealing with a local store. I was under the assumption they would support the machines as well as carry parts and accessories for them. That was my big mistake. I was too quick to buy and just didn't do proper pre-purchase research. The machines are what they are, I wasn't really expecting anything more. It's the customer service I feel to be severely lacking. On top of that, now I have to deal with a location in Ontario for my needs. It's like buying a car from a dealer down the street and then being told you have to drive it across the country to get any parts, service or warranty work done.

I thought I would get these machines and they would be fun to tinker with over the winter. Here it is almost 4 1/2 months later and I haven't turned a wheel. I am hoping that if/when the machines do get running that they don't explode right away but I've never had real high expectations of these machines. My high expectations were in regards to support and customer service and in these areas I do not feel they have been met.

"High standards" can rarely be met with "low budgets"

 

[Linz]

Sorry to learn of your misfortune that the KB Electronics board has arrived effectively faulty. My own lathe, supplied from the UK, which looks very much like yours, made by Sumore Machinery in China (rebadged by many I think) had a copy of the KB board. After a couple of years this failed. I didn't have the electronics repair knowledge then that I have now. Investigations on the Internet showed this was a KB copy and that the KB boards were considered the best. So I ordered one, Installed it making wiring mods to make it easier to change in the even of a failure. Since, touch wood, no probs.

I have subsequently investigated the Chinese copy. These boards have 2 Triacs on them. Testing at component level showed they were blown. I ordered new Triacs and replacement power diodes as well (the row of 3 legged chips on the heat sink. When I can eventually get round to it I will do the repair and keep in stock as my mill has the same board. The Triac and diode failures can happen with no visible evidence. Only component testing will reveal which one is kaput.

Paul

You're right, there are 2 scr (thrysistors) and 3 diodes( among other components) that can fail with no visible signs. I doubt any of them cost more than a couple of bucks to replace. I am not testing individual components because this is a new machine. They can replace the whole board under warranty. I'm already doing the work for them and saving THEM money. I'm not about to break out my soldering irons, source, wait for and replace individual components. I'll save that for any failures after the warranty period.

 

[awake]

I would say that for most hobby machinists, dealing with a local store that can/will provide any significant support is unlikely. Around here, I could get a few low-end machine tools at Harbor Freight, but I would not expect anything in the way of service. (That said, they would probably be able to take back the machines, or swap them out - seems like some basic customer service is lacking in your experience of BB!) Those who live near a Grizzly outlet seem to have some success in having a "local store" experience ... but for the most part, it is a matter of ordering on-line and dealing with the concomitant delays and frustrations if things break or do not work. The expense and hassle involved in shipping multiple-hundred-kilo machines does not help in this regard.

All that said ... does Precision Matthews serve Canada? They are selling the "same" Chinese import machinery as BB and many others, and it still would be a long-distance/on-line support relationship, but I have heard good things about the efforts they go to to make things right. Or what about Little Machine Shop? Again, don't know if they are available in Canada, but if so, they have a very good reputation as well. And for that matter, what about Grizzly? A bit more mixed in terms of the reports I've read, but generally pretty positive.

Of course, it may be that none of the above provide service to Canada, in which case ...

On edit: a little searching suggests that all three of the above routinely ship to Canada. Might be worth checking out?

 

[Richard Hed]

This kind of attitude is fostered usually by governments, for example, the post office personnel are in no hurry to help becauzse their jobs are completely secure and they don't need to help customers quickly and reliably. I had a similar experience at Grizzly in Bellingham. The store personnel didn't seem to care a bit about me. Three people were helping the guy in front of me and getting nowhere, so I wandered off thimking they would call me next. But lo or behold, they took the guy behind me who came in the store while I was not looking. They very much had that 'post office' attitude--they seemed to treat me as a bother. Finally, when it was my turn, I felt this feeling of 'we could care less' if we help you. They had to sell a minimum and talk a minimum to their customers but I wonder how many customers were turned off by theier attitude and never came back? Maybe it is just ME, MY attitude that I expect to be treated like I am the next in line to be KING! and that the red carpet will be rolled out just for my litter bearers to tread upon. It's true that I really expect a person behind the counter to give me ALL their attention as if I am the only person alive at this moment (except for minor interruptions) and they will turn all their efforts gto solving my problem. This is the way I treat other people and I expect the same for myself. I actually called corporate about this too, so I hope someone put a prod up their orse. The next time I came in was two months later to pick up my lathe. They didn't seem to have changed much.

However, Grizz fosters their reputation for quickly fixing problems and as far as I know, all people with equipemnt problesm get them solved very quickly. The only time a company stays in business with piss poor attitude is when they are a monopoly (ATT, 1972) and can spit in hyour face and STILL get your business. Eventually, someone else will start a business and whack them silly (that is, BB).

 

[Paul135]

You're right, there are 2 scr (thrysistors) and 3 diodes( among other components) that can fail with no visible signs. I doubt any of them cost more than a couple of bucks to replace. I am not testing individual components because this is a new machine. They can replace the whole board under warranty. I'm already doing the work for them and saving THEM money. I'm not about to break out my soldering irons, source, wait for and replace individual components. I'll save that for any failures after the warranty period.

I fully understand your position, it is certainly BusyBee's responsibility to deal with the faulty board and I would not expect to repair it in your position. It is disgusting service. Do you not have any consumer rights in Canada?

For the benefit of others who may have the same KB Electronics type board and are out of warranty I have a link which may be of help and includes a circuit diagram, that can help with working out how the boards work.
http://andysmachines.weebly.com/variable-speed-controls.html

 

[Linz]

Linz, I hate that you are having so much trouble - and with a brand-new machine, to boot!

It doesn't help you at all to say this, but your experience will be a useful "marker" in the ever-continuing discussion of whether to buy old iron or new. One of the major arguments against old iron is having to do repairs. Well ... !

This also points to the downside of newer technology. Belt- or gear-selected speed changes are not nearly as sexy as infinitely variable speed control, but a good old single-speed induction motor has a rugged simplicity that may be starting to sound pretty good right now!

Please note that I am NOT bashing either new iron or new tech. On the contrary, I love to work with new(er) tech, especially of the CNC variety. But it is useful to remember that the greater capability that comes with the new tech also comes at the cost of greater complexity, and consequently more ways for the system to fail. It is a trade-off that does not need to be feared or maligned, but does need to be recognized.

I have no issues between old and new. Quality is quality and junk is junk regardless of age. The thing is, as quality goes up so does the price....exponentially. Usually, old worn junk, you can throw away. It's doubtful it would be worth the time or money to rebuild. Now, old quality iron is a different story. If you already own it the decision is easy, rebuild it (I'm speaking of course as a home hobbyist). The problem, otherwise, is the availability of old iron to acquire, especially here in the Edmonton, Alberta, Canada area. Our (my) little machines employ a fairly simple single phase ac supplied scr controlled dc drive output to a brushed dc motor, about as far removed from state-of-the-art as you can get. They are used manly because they are smaller, lighter and CHEAPER.

CNC is a whole different ballgame. You can add a few stepper motors and a computer program to a home hobby mill and get some automated x,y.z axis movement, but a far cry from a production 5 or 8 axis full blown cnc machine. You are still restricted to the limitations of your little benchtop machines. I'm starting this hobby so I can tinker, learn a little and maybe make a few little things for myself. I'm not interested in running a computer program, pushing a button and returning later to retrieve my part. For simplicity I can always just go to the store or online and buy what I need. That would likely be the easiest and cheapest way to go for a higher quality part then you could produce at home.

Technology is great. Electronics, however, are like a light bulb. They're on, they fail, they're off. The trade off is they usually last a lot longer, require less maintenance and operate a lot more efficiently than what they've replaced.

 

[Linz]

Richard,

I don't expect or need to be treated like a king. I would just like to get what I paid for. Also, maybe, being treated like they have a little appreciation for my contributing to THEIR livelihood, which as a customer I am doing. Not responding to or returning a call on a failed NEW machine just doesn't cut it. Saying your going to send parts right away but not doing it just doesn't cut it.

Awake & Richard,

Yes, several vendors sell the same or similar machines "rebranded" . Some add (or have the manufacturer add) there own little modifications and or upgrades as well. Some also perform pre-delivery inspections to ensure that the machine at least runs before sending it out the door. I don't think BusyBee does any of that.
I have heard some positive things on the Vendors you have mentioned as well. The problem is the Canadian peso to USD exchange along with the extremely high shipping costs puts the feasibility of purchasing these budget machines in the USA out the window.

I haven't read many positive reviews anywhere about Busybee. If they continually operate as has been with my experience, they would not survive long in the US. People have too many choices there. They could get away with it here because our choices are very limited. If you read the "About Us'" section on their website you would think they were God's gift to the Canadian Woodworking and Metalworking market. I find little of it to be true.

Paul135,

I think the only real right we have is to STFU. I'm not saying that they haven't done what they need to, legally, but I am totally dissatisfied with the way they have gone about it to this point. Good link. That is a very similar setup.

 

[Richard Hed]

Richard,

I don't expect or need to be treated like a king. I would just like to get what I paid for. Also, maybe, being treated like they have a little appreciation for my contributing to THEIR livelihood, which as a customer I am doing. Not responding to or returning a call on a failed NEW machine just doesn't cut it. Saying your going to send parts right away but not doing it just doesn't cut it.

Awake & Richard,

Yes, several vendors sell the same or similar machines "rebranded" . Some add (or have the manufacturer add) there own little modifications and or upgrades as well. Some also perform pre-delivery inspections to ensure that the machine at least runs before sending it out the door. I don't think BusyBee does any of that.
I have heard some positive things on the Vendors you have mentioned as well. The problem is the Canadian peso to USD exchange along with the extremely high shipping costs puts the feasibility of purchasing these budget machines in the USA out the window.

I haven't read many positive reviews anywhere about Busybee. If they continually operate as has been with my experience, they would not survive long in the US. People have too many choices there. They could get away with it here because our choices are very limited. If you read the "About Us'" section on their website you would think they were God's gift to the Canadian Woodworking and Metalworking market. I find little of it to be true.

Paul135,

I think the only real right we have is to STFU. I'm not saying that they haven't done what they need to, legally, but I am totally dissatisfied with the way they have gone about it to this point. Good link. That is a very similar setup.

If you were contributing to MY income, like you state, I WOULD treat you like a prince (not a king, the next in line for kinghood.)

 

[Shopgeezer]

I suspect BB is suffering from Covid induced suppy chain shortages. Electronics producers scaled back production over the worst of the pandemic and these shortages are working their way through the system. I dealt with one manufacturer that took my order, communicated with me about lack of delivery and then dried up and stopped talking. Problem was there were no parts in the bin to send and their shipping system had no way of dealing with this. Nobody had ever been assigned to handle such a situation so they just stopped talking. Everyone had pushed the usual keys on the computer to send the order and that is all they knew how to do. It is certainly a test of a companies customer service. Most fail. One supplier did talk to me and even suggested an alternate source for the part which I was able to order and receive. They get all my business from now on.

 

[Linz]

I suspect BB is suffering from Covid induced suppy chain shortages. Electronics producers scaled back production over the worst of the pandemic and these shortages are working their way through the system. I dealt with one manufacturer that took my order, communicated with me about lack of delivery and then dried up and stopped talking. Problem was there were no parts in the bin to send and their shipping system had no way of dealing with this. Nobody had ever been assigned to handle such a situation so they just stopped talking. Everyone had pushed the usual keys on the computer to send the order and that is all they knew how to do. It is certainly a test of a companies customer service. Most fail. One supplier did talk to me and even suggested an alternate source for the part which I was able to order and receive. They get all my business from now on.

You can only blame so many things on Covid and poor customer service is not one of them. I only post my experiences here to assist others who may be having trouble with their Craftex CX-701 and to report on how the local (Edmonton BusyBee) and head office customer support operate and/or have treated my case. In the case of my failed lathe, I was certainly not about to load it up and return to the Edmonton store to have them ship it to Toronto to be repaired and shipped back in God knows how long from now. Exchange was not an option. Considered return for refund but the BusyBee rep (head office) told me they HAD the parts and would get them sent "RIGHT AWAY" when I told him I was willing to work with them to get the machine fixed. The outcome is mentioned in prior posts. Your right, those who make an effort get the business. Unfortunately, those who don't sometimes still do get some because of no other choice. I post my experience here to help others with their choice.