Chinese 4 stroke model camshaft repair advice

[gbritnell]

When one of the Chinese miniature engine builders started out (no names mentioned) he made a water cooled type hit and miss. Ok the engine has been around forever in both full and model sizes. But as this builder expanded his line some of the designs took on rather close resemblances to engines designed by people that were in the hobby who built them for their own pleasure and some of the drawing sets were made available either freely or for a fee.
I visit several model engineering forums and on one of them (no names mentioned) a Chinese fellow is a regular visitor, advertising his wares and new designs. One of "his designs" was an exact copy of my Holt engine in a smaller scale. When I say exact that's what I mean. I contacted the owner/administrator of the forum and told him of my concerns. He agreed with me and notified the Chinese builder that if he was going to market this engine he should at least give credit for it's origin. Well this fellow then comes up with every answer under the sun, the pictures are on the internet, it wasn't my design to begin with etc. etc. The forum owner also notified him that if he continued to do such things he would be banned from posting on the forum. Well that didn't last long.
Everything I have designed and built I have made drawings for and offer them to prospective builders for a reasonable fee. I guess it's human nature to want something for nothing. At one time I would build tiny hit and miss engines and sell them for a reasonable hourly fee. Anyone who knows my work knows the quality of it. Then came the Chinese CNC cheap hit and miss engines and multitudes of people jumped onto the bandwagon and bought them. The main reason was they were cheap, just like every other product out of China. That's the problem with where we are today in the rest of the world. People want the cheapest product they can buy.
As far as these Chinese engines go I don't even want to hear the excuse that it gets people into the hobby that don't have the equipment or the skill. All you are is collectors! In the 30's and 40's magazines like Popular Science and Popular Mechanics would publish drawings for engines that fellows would build with a drill press and files, and they ran. So don't tell me it gets you into the hobby. At what point were you going to buy machinery to get into the metal hobby?
As far as when I'm ready to leave this place I should place my drawings into the public domain, hogwash! Somebody will just take them and make money from my work without any credit going to me. It's already taking place so I don't want to hear any defense of it.
gbritnell

 

[GreenTwin]

George-

I hear what you are saying.
You are sort of up there on a level of your own, and that makes it worse when people pick off your stuff, given the extraordinary quality of what you do.
I don't have answers for it all (sometimes there are no good answers).

I am still going to publish drawings for every engine I design, as I finish them.
I want the next generation to have a variety of drawings (in free open-source format), in case they want to get into the hobby.

I am not going to get distracted by what is going on in other parts of the world, regardless of how frustrating it may be.
That would be like cutting of my foot to spite my leg.

.

 

[roncohudd]

A warning to every one, don't waste your money on any Chinese made products, the quality of my Chinese made lathe and milling machine is very poor and I am no orphan, many people have a pile of Chinese garbage in their back yard. It is sad.

I've been running production and fun projects on my Grizzly lathe for over 10 years. No problem at all. It's a 14x40 and the only thing that I don't like is that I have to change gears to make threads.

 

[mrehmus]

I don’t have a lathe. I would love to have someone make me a stainless steel camshaft. I could give dimensions. I would also ask for some larger lobes

SS is not a good choice for cams. Use 4130 and just harden the lobes themselves. No need to harden the shaft and that will almost always cause it to warp. Cut the cam lobes to their major diameter and then heat each lobe red hot and dump in water. We mount our camshafts in a drill press (turn slow) to both heat and chill the lobes. Grind into shape afterwards. 4130 will only harden to about 55 Rockwell and will not need tempering. Works great for V-8's that have been running for years.
BTW, 36 hours is a fair amount of time on a model engine.

 

[M16mdl]

Did that camshaft ever get fixed? Sorry guys but we have completely gone off the rails in this thread. As to not further tread on the subject I'm making this my last post. My apologies to M16mdl.

Hey no problem. I’m about to send it to essentric and he can get it done for me.

 

[awake]

... a large router company that starts with 'C' and sounds like Fricso ...

I thought Crisco was a brand of vegetable shortening?

 

[djswain1]

Dave, The problem is that neither the Kerzel or the Upshur designs were in the public domain. The Kerzel plans were explicitely released for non-commercial use and the Chinese violated that. Dave has addressed this previously.
Todd.

Hi Todd
I didn't realise they weren't public. I know of the names Kerzel and Upshur but that is about it.
I've but an Elner's Wobbler from Elmer Verburgs plans a Unit Steam Engine wobbler from their kit, a PM Resesrch mill engine from their kit and my latest build I've started which will test my limited skills is a Jerry Howell Powerhouse built from plans purchased from his son.
I expect in the future my builds will also be from a mixture of plans either purchased or those freely available and kits.
Cheers, Dave.

 

[djswain1]

Hey no problem. I’m about to send it to essentric and he can get it done for me.

Glad your getting it sorted
Cheers, Dave.

 

[coulsea]

Lubrication is important in these small models, they are not really designed to be used for long periods of time, 68 hours is a long time, most of my models don't get used for more than a couple of minutes at a time.
I will share my plans and knowledge with anybody here because we have a common interest and its a bit late for me to invent the internal combustion engine.
My first model IC engine was a Chinese Webster and I have built 11 engines since then, so if Mr Websters goal was to promote home model engine making he has done well. I don't support blatant misuse of plans but it has been going on forever and it is not going to stop.
I have some full size Australian engines from the 1920s that are a copy of American fuller and johnson engines and no consideration or acknowledgment was ever gives.

 

[Bazzer]

I've been running production and fun projects on my Grizzly lathe for over 10 years. No problem at all. It's a 14x40 and the only thing that I don't like is that I have to change gears to make threads.

Yes and there are millions of people in China doing the same thing as you, there is always a satisfied customer somewhere for a cheap piece of equipment.

Some people get satisfaction from using a really nice piece of machinery to turn out high quality parts but millions don't.

 

[GreenTwin]

My dad used his Grizzly 12x36 lathe to make 38 engines of various types, and I continue to use the same lathe without modification 10 years later.
Say what you want about a Grizzly lathe but they are a workhorse, and can do accurate work with no problems.

I wish they were made here as much as anyone, but the price enabled my dad to get into the hobby, which he may not have otherwise done.

I also have a pristine Myford ML7, and I certainly appreciate the quality of this lathe, but my Grizzly does the day-in day-out grunt work for the bulk of my projects.

If you can afford it, get the good old equipment.
If you are on a tight budget, don't underestimate what a Grizzly lathe can do.
Don't mistake ugly for non-functional. A Grizzly lathe is a highly functional machine.
Personal choices for each individual; there is no right and wrong way to make an engine, and there is no right and wrong equipment.

Just my thoughts.

.

 

[stevehuckss396]

68 hours shouldn't have worn this camshaft. I have at least double that time on the peewee and there is maybe scuff Mark's at best. It was just poor material and workmanship. The new one should last hundreds of hours even if it not hardened.

Have you made arrangements to have the new part made?

 

[Bazzer]

My dad used his Grizzly 12x36 lathe to make 38 engines of various types, and I continue to use the same lathe without modification 10 years later.
Say what you want about a Grizzly lathe but they are a workhorse, and can do accurate work with no problems.

I wish they were made here as much as anyone, but the price enabled my dad to get into the hobby, which he may not have otherwise done.

I also have a pristine Myford ML7, and I certainly appreciate the quality of this lathe, but my Grizzly does the day-in day-out grunt work for the bulk of my projects.

If you can afford it, get the good old equipment.
If you are on a tight budget, don't underestimate what a Grizzly lathe can do.
Don't mistake ugly for non-functional. A Grizzly lathe is a highly functional machine.
Personal choices for each individual; there is no right and wrong way to make an engine, and there is no right and wrong equipment.

Just my thoughts.

.

I agree with no right and wrong way, but in a way you seem to keep the Myford for 'Best' work and that tells something about the Grizzly.

I just don't see the point when there is good/better American and European machines on the second hand market.

 

[GreenTwin]

I do tend to lean towards 2nd hand US/European equipment, which is why I bought the Myford.
I inherited the Grizzly lathe and mill, and so they were free.

For someone without equipment and looking, I would look for used US/European equipment first.

.

 

[PeterDRG]

Keith Appleton does some excellent YouTube videos on small engines and, in at least one, discusses these Microcosum engines.

 

[OrangeAlpine]

I cut my machining teeth in high school on worn out WWII USA machinery. Cincinnati, LeBlond, Monarch and South Bend were the names of the day. Yes, great American equipment. The Monarch was a 16" fat girl and still in great shape, so I know what quality is all about. But I got into the hobby with a Chinese 12 X 36 because I could buy a decent lathe for little more than the price of a piece of crap. 25 years later, the lathe is still going strong. Given the choice, I'll take a good, not great, quality Chinese lathe over worn out American.
Bill

 

[willray]

If you can afford it, get the good old equipment.
Don't mistake ugly for non-functional. A Grizzly lathe is a highly functional machine.
Personal choices for each individual; there is no right and wrong way to make an engine, and there is no right and wrong equipment.

I must disagree. There is wrong equipment. The wrong equipment is equipment for which you have paid more than the satisfaction or production capability it brings you.

That's not necessarily to say cheap, ugly, or even less effective equipment is "wrong equipment". If you have less expensive equipment and it solves your problems or makes you happy, it's the right equipment. If you have more expensive equipment and it doesn't, it's the wrong equipment.

China has a bad habit of producing equipment designed to convince you that it'll do something that it won't, resulting in a lot of Chinese products being the wrong equipment. On the other hand, quite a few people invest in "good old equipment" and then are disappointed because despite the added cost, the mystique of the "good old equipment" somehow doesn't translate into better results. That's the wrong equipment too.

I've got both varieties.

Anyone who sneers axiomatically at Grizzly, or other Chinese equipment, is applying their own satisfaction/happiness evaluation to someone else's happiness and satisfaction. That'll rarely go well.

 

[Richard Hed]

My dad used his Grizzly 12x36 lathe to make 38 engines of various types, and I continue to use the same lathe without modification 10 years later.
Say what you want about a Grizzly lathe but they are a workhorse, and can do accurate work with no problems.

I wish they were made here as much as anyone, but the price enabled my dad to get into the hobby, which he may not have otherwise done.

I also have a pristine Myford ML7, and I certainly appreciate the quality of this lathe, but my Grizzly does the day-in day-out grunt work for the bulk of my projects.

If you can afford it, get the good old equipment.
If you are on a tight budget, don't underestimate what a Grizzly lathe can do.
Don't mistake ugly for non-functional. A Grizzly lathe is a highly functional machine.
Personal choices for each individual; there is no right and wrong way to make an engine, and there is no right and wrong equipment.

Just my thoughts.

.

Yes, I've got a Grizz G4003G--it's a great machine. There are some small quibbling things like the cover to the gear change section does not have a swing on it but for what it is capable to doing is great. I have a small enco that I consider just a boat anchor.

 

[M16mdl]

68 hours shouldn't have worn this camshaft. I have at least double that time on the peewee and there is maybe scuff Mark's at best. It was just poor material and workmanship. The new one should last hundreds of hours even if it not hardened.

Have you made arrangements to have the new part made?

Yes I have with essentrick. Currently still on its way to him to look over.

 

[Eccentric]

Guess what finally showed up in my mailbox today. My first plan of attack will be to measure and create a drawing of the camshaft.

We are so used to next day or 2 day shipping from Amazon, we balk at having to wait for a month for a package sent from the east coast to the west coast (of the US) by USPS. But it made it. I don't want to get political, but why.... (A General Accountability Office (GAO) report found that USPS lost $69 billion over the previous 11 fiscal years—including $3.9 billion in fiscal year 2018. Then, a forecasted $6.6 billion loss turned into an $8.9 billion loss in 2019. ) Oh, I am sorry, I said I didn't want to get political.

I will use this thread to document my fabrication of this camshaft, I am thinking to use 01 tool steel, then harden and temper it. I am open to suggestions.