causing upset

[steamer]

This brings to mind one of my favorite Southern quips

"Last words of a Southerner, Hey y'all, watch this."

:big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:

SAM

Already taught my kids that....if someone says that, take three steps back.8)...they do it automatically

I've heard horror stories about all kinds of things being turned into boilers...bottom line, turning anything other than a boiler into a boiler gives engineers nightmares.

A pressure cooker might seem reasonable...but at what pressure will it relieve pressure, many of them have safety valves that are stuck shut from bad water or food remnants. What are the materials for construction?....heavy stainless or cheap china mystery metal...how did you hook a pipe to it...with duct tape or silver solder. Does it have a crack where Aunt Martha dropped it down the stairs...I mean come now guys

Everything stated that is "not needed" comes from someone who perhaps hasn't run a boiler..." Come on, what's the real reason?" Well when things go pear shaped, and they do! those superfluous things come in mighty handy.....From myself and others here who have run boilers....DON'T use cookware for a boiler....no good will come of it.

And for the record ....I'm not being arrogant, or mean or selective in my assistance....What I want is for you to not blow me up or *#& off enough politicians with stupid and tragic acts that I can't run a hobby boiler ANYWHERE.

I have met some of these people who slap it together with little thought, I saved a boiler once in the hands of a fool who let it and his feed tank run dry and thought it best to stoke the fire.....when the safety lifted at 160, I opened the furnas door and an armload of burning firewood came out...The inside of the boat was painted gray as was ALL the plumbing...no time to trace the rats nest of pipes, so I started shoveling the fire overboard as fast as I could because I was looking into the open firebox door of a rapidly emptying boiler...kind of like looking down the barral of a loaded shot gun...when I emptied the grate over the side, I looked at the glass...empty...the safety was singing at 180!......safety not sized correctly! I closed the door and got off the boat to the groans and protests of the clueless around me who complained of me soiling their lake with burning firewood...made me say all kinds of bad words! :redface2: Come to find out, the owner left the boat to his cousin, who knew NOTHING of steamboats, boilers or what have you....as I got off, he was coming back from the package store with a case of beer.... :redface2: There were 40 people standing around that boat on the shore where it was tied up.....what if I hadn't pulled the fire? nuf said. I am sure others with much more boiler experience here on this forum could tell far worse tales...

There are rules and guidelines to put a hobby boiler together...learn what they are and how to do it. It isn't rocket science, or black art, just effort and practice...and its there to help you be successful.

Steam is a wonderful, terrible thing. ..it shows no mercy or pity....It doesn't care what your bank account or address is, and couldn't care less about your feelings....treat it as it is, for what it is, with respect....and I mean absolute respect.

Why the rant? I care, about the hobby and my many friends in it.....OK! enough of this silly dribble...lets go build something.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Seems like the common theme isn't so much about the tool itself (pressure cooker or not) but the lack of knowledge in using it. Steamer's example is a case in point. It wasn't the boiler...it was the guy running it. Brings us back to the fundamentals...

Don't use a tool in a way it was it wasn't intended for.
Don't use a tool unless you know how to use it properly.

And if you do, and survive, let others know. Better to appear 'less than smart' and save another soul.

We learn as much from failure as from success.

 

[Blogwitch]

I just wish this post had died a death almost as soon as it started, purely because it has brought the discussion about PC's even further into the public eye, and by some of the responses, they could be construed by a total beginner as being a genuine way to go.

Why did I raise the remarks I did?

As I have said before, this site is very safety conscious, and as such, because PC's can not be controlled by general laid down specifications as a correctly made boiler can, it actually comes under experimental ideas, such as a sealed tin can full of water, with a pipe sticking out of the top to supply the steam. In other words, not to be recommended, and as such, should definitely not be shown or discussed on here.

Warning, DO NOT USE A SEALED TIN CAN WITH A PIPE STUCK IN THE TOP AS A STEAM BOILER.

In fact, in the early days of this site, I recommended that boiler builds shouldn't be shown at all, not as a killjoy, but because it raised a lot of safety issues about people copying what was being shown, and who were not experienced in the building of boilers, having a go at lashing one up in their workshop, and be liable to have an accident.
So any boiler builds you do see, should always stress that the correct materials are used and every stage is done in a recognised and safety conscious manner.

I recognise that people would like to make their own boilers, and that is why the experienced amongst us are always on hand to show and teach, if necessary, the correct way to go about it. If that backup wasn't there, I would, in all honesty, still be pushing the bosses for boiler builds not to be shown.

It is not me being a nanny at all, but a person who has seen the aftermath of too many accidents, and would like to think that by my actions, I have maybe saved someone having one.

Now back to the subject matter.

Of course PC's produce pressure, and supposedly, could in theory, with a little modification, run a small engine. But in my, and most probably a lot of other peoples views, it would most probably be an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately, the modifications required, wouldn't, under any circumstances, render a PC to be classed as a recognised and safe model boiler.

BTW, while you are at home, you seem to think you can do whatever you like. But if the truth were sought, and an accident did occur whilst experimenting with a "boiler", I think you would find your normal household and life insurances would be null and void, and you would certainly have some sort of government body breathing down what was left of the back of your neck.

Also, and this is correct in the UK, and maybe the same in other parts of the world, you are required to have a minimum of a specialised third party insurance cover whilst running a live steam engine, not just in other places, but in your own home and grounds. That is because even members of your own household are classed as third party, and they can also sue your a**e off if they get hurt.

I now hope that explains why it was done.

Bogs

 

[tel]

I'm sure using a pressure cooker must be dangerous as hell...or Bogs wouldn't have made such an issue of it. But I haven't seen one response yet that makes the case. We know that millions of pressure cookers are used every day with few accidents. We know that fundamentally a boiler is only a specialized pressure cooker and vice versa.

We've heard about too much fire and water...so turn down the fire and don't fill the pot. We've heard about disabling the safety valve...so don't disable the valve. We've heard about no sight gauge...so don't run the thing more than five minutes at a time.

Come on guys, what's the real reason?

Charlie

The 'real' reason is to try and stop y'awl blowing yerselves sky high. Think on this - a pressure cooker is designed to run at a relatively low pressure, typically 10 - 15 psi - the vessel is probably safe to around twice that, BUT in order to tap off usable steam you would have to modify the pc to some extent, almost always the novice would got for the relief valve arrangement as being a convenient point of operations and that's really, really dangerous stuff. Remember we are looking at a simple pot - no stays, no water level, no real heat regulation, no pressure gauge. :hDe:

A miniature boiler, on the other hand, is designed for the purpose - my steel boiler was hyro'ed at 200 psi, built for a SWL of 100 psi yet I only run it at around 40 psi. In short, I have a BIG margin of safety, something that is lacking in a modified pc.

Still, if y'awl wanna blow yourselves into a zillion bits who am I to say no? Just don't tell anyone I recommended the practice.

 

[lordedmond]

Re boilers for steam generation

The only point to consider is that ALL boilers must be constructed to the code that is applicable to the country that you reside , that is one reason to at least state your country.

IMHO saying that the boiler is for my own use does not cut it , nor does constructing to old out of date designs that were ok in the year that they were drawn eg LBSC ones do not have bushes in them he/she just said drill and tap the shell screw in and caulk with soft solder ( this method does not comply with any code i know of )


Please guys/gals be safe and only construct the boilers to code they have been drawn up for a reason , what was ok in the past has no place in todays world


for a loco just think where the boiler is when you drive the loco ( between your legs ) and for a stationary one think of the children /grand children and great GC if you are that lucky

Stuart

 

[Kermit]

Just to increase the controversy and perhaps point out a small level of irony on the 'safe' way to do things.

Released just last Month - and it can be yours for only $14,500, or so. The complete AMSC regulations covering boilers and boiler making.

:

Yes, let's stress safety, BUT let's keep the average Joe from EVER being able to discover what the rules are. Now would someone tell me WHY such an important safety document as this would be so extremely out of reach for almost everyone in the country?

Seems Safety and Accessibility are fruits of two very different and widely separated trees.

Just saying...

Kermit

Edit: as pointed out below, I should have said ASME, not AMSC. -I blame a lack of coffee for that. :big:

 

[putputman]

I have heard enough to convince me to give up on the pressure cooker idea. I will be content running my engines on compressed air.

Thank you all for carring on with this discussion long enough to maybe educate a few of us on dangers of steam in the hands of the novice.

Tel, your answer is what I was looking for.

 

[GWRdriver]

Released just last Month - . . . The complete AMSC (sic) regulations covering boilers and boiler making.

Kermit,
Do you mean the ASME?

BUT let's keep the average joe from EVER being able to discover what the rules are. Now would someone tell me WHY such an important safety document as this would be so extremely out of reach for almost everyone in the country?

Because we are hobbyists, not industrial power boiler builders, and we don't need to see all of that document. In the case of the USA, the FIRST step for anyone contemplating a model boiler is to determine if there is a local live steam or model engineering group and look for a member or members who have made boilers or who keep abreast of the boiler regulations for model builders in your State. YOUR STATE is the key because your State boiler law (or the state in which you plan to operate) which is almost always a distillation of the $14000 document, is what will set the regulations for you. You may find that your state has exclusions (one paragraph in all of that $14000/worth of code) that excludes your proposed boiler from those requirements. Once you determine what regulations and restrictions apply to you (or not - due to exclusions) you can then choose (or be directed to) one of the several respected model boiler writers (ie, Martin Evans, KN Harris, AMBSC, UK Federation, Kozo, etc) which taken together create a set of "codes" for world model boiler builders the thoroughness and safety of which is better than it has ever been, although there is of course (always) disagreement on details. This process, and what will regulate specifically you want to do, is not NEARLY as difficult as some people try to make it out to be.

Another consideration is that not everyone who is a live steamer or model engineer who claims to be an experienced and knowledgeable boiler person, is. Individuals also have opinions and agendas and some of those are not in your or the hobby's best interest. Doing things on the cheap and quick would be one of those agendas. There's nothing wrong with being economical and saving money, but to base advice upon what is cheapest and quickest, rather than what will be safest, is in none of our best interests. Other agendas are doing things because that's the way it was done in full size, or that's the way we do it down at "the Plant". There might be coincidental overlap but the world of model boilers has its own good safe technology. Find out what your State has to say, get several local opinions, do some reading, ask questions here and on other sites, and make your decision.

 

[johnthomp]

one final thought on this matter i find the safest way nowadays especialy with my 2yr old daughter being fascinated with these little engines and seeing them run i just use the pipe and valve off an old footpump conected to an old spare wheel off my car up to 20 psi them let it run down with constant undivided supervision i find this to be the safest way to run engines where kids are involved and who could have believed it half the fun for her is pumping the tyre up it knackers her out good and propper and she normaly sleeps all night no probs then
the real bonus is shes hopefuly the next generation interested in this subject and isnt it true to teach children as young as possibe road safety the do's and dont's why not teach her model engine safety as early as possible aswell

 

[Dan Rowe]

Quick and dirty is a phrase that should never be used in boiler work of ANY size. Using a PC can only be described as quick and dirty.

From an engineering stand point a simple "pot" boiler is the most inefficient type. Add to that an opening with a cover large enough to give you a quick trip with flashing lights... if you are lucky, and as Bogs stated there is NO WAY this would EVER be an approved boiler by any Live Steam Organization model or not.

For those who live in the United States and have a need to read the boiler code for your State check this thread:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8846.0
This is the first thread I started on this forum and I was impressed that there was not the usual lack of respect for SAFETY and codes witten so engineers the world over can design pressure vessels and other equipment with SAFETY.

Dan

 

[Cedge]

Anyone considering a using a pressure cooker in such a manner should take time to ask Brian Rupnow to recount his Sunday Dinner saga about cooking a chicken in a pressure cooker with no safety valve. Hilarious story, but it brings home the point that when things go pear shaped, they get there fast and and with really serious destructive force.

I too was originally against the boiler forum, for many of the same reasons Bogster mentioned. As more and more experienced boiler builders came on board, my concerns were eased and the forum seems to have become a hit with the membership. The discussion being held forth within this thread is a positive thing, in that it has addressed the sheer folly of trying to "make do" when considering pressurized steam generation. There simply aren't any safe corners to be cut when you are playing with a potentially explosive device.

A properly made boiler in the experienced hands of someone who knows how to safely operate them will be perfectly safe. That same boiler, in inexperienced hands becomes an accident waiting to happen. Take time to learn the ropes. Ask for advise, compare said advise by seeking more advise and then read all you can find on the subject. Then ask for advise again.

I've seen videos on Youtube where it was obvious the person shown was wading in the dangerously shallow end of the human gene pool. Several showed attempts at making boilers from tin cans, empty gas bottles and my personal all time choice for the Darwin Awards.... a glass wine bottle heated on the stove. I guess there is some small comfort in the thought that these guys aren't likely live long enough to breed.

I've been called to task on a couple of occasions by someone who claimed small boilers can't fail in a violent manner. Supposedly they simply vent harmlessly at a seam and present no real danger. Having seen the end results and having been asked to submit affidavits in a couple of injury/liability cases, I can attest to the destructive force of even small boilers when they've been abused or badly maintained.

Of all the ways I can think of to get hurt while practicing our hobby, being bodily pierced by flying flak while my skin bubbles and melts, as super heated steam attacks my lungs just never seems make it to the top of my most preferred list.

Steve

 

[Dan Rowe]

I saved a boiler once in the hands of a fool who let it and his feed tank run dry and thought it best to stoke the fire.....when the safety lifted at 160, I opened the furnas door and an armload of burning firewood came out...The inside of the boat was painted gray as was ALL the plumbing...no time to trace the rats nest of pipes, so I started shoveling the fire overboard as fast as I could because I was looking into the open firebox door of a rapidly emptying boiler...kind of like looking down the barral of a loaded shot gun...when I emptied the grate over the side, I looked at the glass...empty...the safety was singing at 180!......safety not sized correctly! I closed the door and got off the boat to the groans and protests of the clueless around me who complained of me soiling their lake with burning firewood...made me say all kinds of bad words! :redface2: Come to find out, the owner left the boat to his cousin, who knew NOTHING of steamboats, boilers or what have you....as I got off, he was coming back from the package store with a case of beer.... :redface2: There were 40 people standing around that boat on the shore where it was tied up.....what if I hadn't pulled the fire? nuf said. I am sure others with much more boiler experience here on this forum could tell far worse tales...

Well done Dave,
It is a true engineer who stands his ground in the face of real danger and does his duty. I take my short brim canvas cap off to salute you.

Dan

 

[steamer]

Dan,

I read this earlier today...and I don't know quite how to answer it.

I thank you for your comments, It means a lot me coming from someone of such obvious experience..I dare say WAAAAY more than I....

I was trained by someone who didn't mess around...I think my actions were just that trained response. I didn't start shaking until later :

Thankyou!...but be assured...my life would be no less rich and enjoyable if I wasn't involved in that little drama in the first place....

I brought that story up, as it was a moment for me after which I started taking life a little more seriously. I can promise you my relationship with steam got a good bit more serious after that. But I was using the story to point out that the "bits" strung all over a boiler aren't there just to be polished...they are there for a reason...they are tools.....I know you know that....I hope others do now.

So I guess , what Iam saying is....If anything..tip your hat to the man who trained me. I think he had more to do with it....

Dave

 

[Brian Rupnow]

Grandmas pressure cooker—

When I was a kid, my family never considered itself poor. We always had some kind of clothes to wear, and we never went to bed hungry. My mother had 5 brothers and sisters, and consequently I had about three thousand cousins all close to my age. Every Sunday, we would all gather at Grandma and Grandpas little house for Sunday dinner.
Now as I said, we never considered ourselves poor, but that didn’t stop us from dragging the odd thing home from the local dump, after a garbage run, that looked like it might still have some life in it.
This was about 1952, and the real ‘Must Have” cooking item that year was a “pressure cooker”---Why, you could put the toughest, scrawniest, old rooster into a pressure cooker, and after about 4 hours at 250 PSI it would be tender as a young chicken.—Only thing was, nobody in our family could afford to buy one.
My uncle made a “dump run” one Saturday, and there in the dump was an almost new pressure cooker. (These were a big heavy aluminum pot about 16” in diameter and 16” high with a heavy lid which ‘dogged down” into place with clamps big enough to use on the watertight bulkheads in a submarine). The only thing missing was some little valve thingy on the lid, that had broken off.
My uncle quickly grabbed the pot and the lid and dragged it home to grandma. Now my uncle was a very handy sort of fellow, so before he gave the pot to Grandma, he whittled a nice hickory plug and pounded it into the hole where that little valve thingy had broken off.
Now Grandma, who was even poorer than the rest of us, (grandpa was too old to do much real work by then, and the government pension wouldn’t buy much beyond a sack of potatoes and 2 plugs of Redman chewing tobacco)---she was ecstatic, to have an almost new “pressure cooker”.
Come Sunday morning she sent grandpa down to the chicken coupe with an axe to dispatch the toughest, oldest, meanest rooster and get him ready for the pot.
She plucked said rooster, and into the pot he went with some water and some salt and whatever else you use to cook a chicken (Hey, I’m an engineer darn it, not a cook!!!) and set it on the back of the woodstove to simmer all day.
About 3:00 in the afternoon all the various aunts and uncles and cousins rolled into Grandmas little house, and the aunts were all proudly shown the “New” pressure cooker. They admired it, and even aknowledged what a clever fellow my uncle was to whittle a good plug that didn’t leak any for that little part that had broken off the top of the lid.
Everybody was crowded into the little parlor, gossiping and yacking as familes at grandmas always do, and smelling the great smell of chicken cooking---by that time a bit of chicken laden steam was escaping around the edges of the lid.)
As the visiting went on, and the smell of cooking chicken and dumplings got even better, somebody looked out into the old summer kitchen and noticed that there seemed to be an awfull lot of steam coming out from around the edges of the lid on that pressure cooker, and that it (The pressure cooker) seemed to have taken on a life of its own, and was starting to jig around a bit on the top of the stove.
This was a bit alarming, so my uncle who had brought home the cooker was elected to go into the summer kitchen and shove the new cooker to the back of the stove, off the heat.
He made it as far as the archway going into the summer kitchen, when she BLEW!!! There was a deafening roar, the clang of a 16” aluminum lid ricoshetting around the kitchen, and a massive cloud of chicken laden steam swept out of the summer kitchen into the parlor.
Women were screaming, kids were bawling, and my uncle came flying out of the kitchen covered in hot water and chicken goo.
Everybody ran outside the little house, and when things calmed down a bit, and all the mothers done head counts of all the children, my poor uncle who was terrified (and only scalded a little bit) was sent back into the house to see what had happened.
Then we heard the laughter start from inside the house. We all looked at each other, thinking perhaps that the explosion had addled my uncles brains. He began shouting ‘Come in here---You gotta see this!!!”
So---We all filed cautiously back into the house, through the remnants of chicken flavoured steam,---and---There on the ceiling of the summer kitchen was our Sunday dinner!!!
SPLAT!!!----there was that poor old rooster, totally embossed into the ceiling, dumplings and all.
That “little thing” that had been broken off the lid was the SAFETY VALVE!!! When my uncle whittled the hardwood plug, he had unknowingly created a BOMB!!!
Needless to say, that is one Sunday dinner that I will always remember, even though it happened more than 50 years ago.---Brian

 

[SAM in LA]

Brian,

I always enjoy your stories.

If you had posted it at the beginning of this thread, the thread would probably not been so long.

SAM