causing upset

[johnthomp]

in the first instance the remark and reference to pressure cookers was that in the past i have used one to raise steam when i was younger and a lot more stupid and was useing this reference to bolster the fact of me starting to build a purpouse built boiler in the shape and form of my favourite type the lancashire boiler as i have a fair ammount of experience useing the half size one in fred dibnahs back yard where myself and my grandfather used to visit quite regularly
in the original post i agree that writing such a stupid thing was in evry respect irresponsible and just used my past antics ie: the pressure cooker experiment as an aid to bolster the need i have to create a safe device as i now have children and therefore do not have the luxury of being so daft anymore
but bogs must have took it the wrong way as he read that remark and was way too fast to point that safety issue out to me and i can see why pressure vessels are not something that should be messed with or improvised and i know this from bad experiences in the past and therefore dont want to go down that route again if i can help it
thats why i started the original post named (is it a good idea to use brass brazeing rod to make a copper boiler )
last night i spent the best part of 6 hours traceing my family history to find where the 12th scale lancashire boiler or its drawings went after my great grandfathers death wich was used for demonstration purpouses towards new potential customers im then going to ask my grandfathers brother to see if he can get the original firm wich he still holds shares in to build one of these boilers for both myself and my great uncles use as he is an engineer of over half a centurys experience
i appologised for the offending remark on the affore mentioned thread so as it can be seen worldwide and i also thanked bogs for his input as sore as it was to take in at the time and then altered the thread in respect of bogs wishes as i was always tought to respect and take heed in what the elder gents say as they are talking from experience
i then wrote this thread on causeing upset because i had done and wrote on this site that people had pulled me on mainly our elder gents and one lady who took offence to
1 my foul language on some jokes in the humour section wich i apologised for
2 ideas and methods i mentioned that i use wich were corrected by someone else
3 my spelling and grammar if you can believe it
4 remarks regarding my ways of handleing situations mentioned on here
5 and now this mess for mentioning something from my past that im not proud of doing nor mentioning have done and do not wish to repeat doing it again

this thread was originaly just me saying to the people i have upset in the first place
from now on i will not be adding any more input to this site due to the rate of people basicaly telling me to shut up

im sorry for and i quote (rambling on ) again but its just my nature stemming from haveing to justify my evry move as a child to my father
i now find the need to apologise for the way i am and am stepping back from posting with the theory that its the way i am that just aggrovates certain individuals
FAO Bogstandard
please accept my apology for any inconveinience or stress all this may have caused you im not in any way a nasty man i never intended this thread to cause any upset nor hurt it was just me trying to say im takeing a back seat keeping my thoughts to myself but it seems to have gone the wrong way and caused more trouble than its worth :-[

 

[Blogwitch]

John actually sent me a PM to apologise, but really there was no need. I am thick skinned enough for all to roll off like drops of water

If you get to see the original post, you would already realise that on my part, things were already forgotten about, before all this lot erupted, and was willing to help in any way I could.

But in all honesty, whether you like it or not, I speak my mind, sometimes a little bit too graphically, but under certain circumstances, it is required to be that way to get a short sharp message across, then forgotten about.

Of course, if people want to take it further, I still have a lot of energy and choice words left.


Bogs

 

[Troutsqueezer]

Bogs, if you have that much energy left, perhaps you could channel it into designing another engine like the Paddleducks which I have just started to build. ;D

-Trout

 

[zeeprogrammer]

johnthomp...I hope you stay.

As for this thread, I've struggled with it for the last half an hour. Very disappointing on a number of levels.

In any case...

Most of you know that not all teachers are experts. Likewise, not all experts are teachers. The ability to teach requires another skill set. So when I'm told something, I sometimes have to ask why. And then verify. ;D

Maybe this isn't the right question relative to this thread...but it got me curious...

If pressure cookers are not safe as a steam source (and I think any pressure vessel is to some degree unsafe)...then why? What are the dangers? I know even cooking can cause overpressure.

I came across this...

http://www.greensteamengine.com/

By the way trout...It's martiniS. My drinks are always in the plural...except for the last one...and the last one is never the first one. ;D

 

[Dan Rowe]

Don,

Thank you.

I hadn't realised that the post had been edited to take out the major safety issue about using a pressure cooker for a steam supply, and maybe why people didn't see why I made such an issue of it.

Maybe we should just leave people to show what they want, and say nothing, hoping we don't have too many maimings or deaths because of it.

Safety has always been a major issue on this site, and it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to stop bad practices being shown or discussed.

Issues about safety need to be stamped on and made perfectly clear in no uncertain words. Not have the originator wrapped up in cotton wool and given a tap on the back of their hand. We could be talking about lives at stake here.

I know some people think my attitude might be high and mighty and arrogant, but if it saves just one person having an accident, I'm very sorry, but you can kiss my pimply, hairy a**e.

But just remember and think about it before you start to rant and rave, no ifs, buts or why-fors, it could be your life I save.


Bogs

Bogs, yes concern about safety is one of the main reasons that I read this forum. I do not think you have an attitude at all speaking the plain truth is simply that.

Safety on a Merchant vessel where I worked is taken seriously there is no real medical assistance for several days days at a time. I did 25 years below decks with 10 of that running a gang. All of us made it back with the same number of parts.

As Bogs said the safety of this forum is the responsibility of ALL the readers.

Dan

 

[radfordc]

I wonder the same thing as Zee...what's the deal with pressure cookers? When my Mom used one it had a little weight that limited the amount of pressure inside. If one were to pipe off some 15 psi steam what happens?

Yes, I realize that I have just inspired countless dimwits to go out and blow themselves up. Sorry.

Charlie

 

[Troutsqueezer]

I'm the first to admit I don't know a dang thing about boilers....yet. But my spidey sense tells me that with a pressure cooker you have a powerful heat source (the stove) combined with a lot of water in the cooker, thus, the potential for a very large amount of steam energy. Now, from that you want to siphon off a very small amount of steam. I think that's a bad equation. It's like playing with matches next to a propane tank. You'll probably live...but maybe not.

Dunno...just going with my survival instinct on that one.

-Trout

 

[tel]

Contrary to what their name would indicate, pressure cookers do not rely on pressure for the cooking process - the pressure is there purely to raise the temperature of the water by about 20°C (typically around 15psi) and the elevated temp does the cooking bit. I should be very surprised if any useful amount of steam could be generated in one unless the weight had been tampered with, AND THAT IS A BIG NO NO.

Best advice - stick to proven small boiler designs until you have a lot of experience, then, and only them, you might venture into design/experimentation.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

until you have a lot of experience, then, and only them, you might venture into design/experimentation.

Although a blanket statement, this is generally good advice. I include modifications as part of that experimentation. I sometimes wonder how drilling holes, etc. might weaken something.

Knowing something is safe is one thing. Knowing something is unsafe is another. Not knowing is, be definition, not safe. Thinking you know can result in gravestones with last utterances like..."Watch this!", "Look what I can do!", "You dare me!?"

Anyway...

I'm with you to some extent trout...my instinct is saying 'no' as well but I'm still trying to figure out the difference between siphoning off steam from a pressure cooker to siphoning off steam from a boiler. Both seem to be vessels of water with a heat source nearby. And then there's that link I posted...which I must admit I haven't had time to investigate further. It's also telling that I didn't find much else on the net.

I say this eye-ing my as yet untested little boiler with the trepidation of an inexperienced experimenter. ;D

 

[Dan Rowe]

Zee and all,

A pressure cooker is just that any modifications to one will violate the makers warranty. Now it can not be properly be called a pressure cooker it is a boiler.

There are standard safety rules for boilers such as a hydro to twice the working pressure and a safety valve test at FULL FIRING RATE!!!! during the safety valve test the pressure gauge is not allowed to climb above 10% of the working pressure.

A badly designed 15 psi boiler is way more dangerous that a properly designed and maintained boiler at several thousand psi. Even a vacuum implosion can cause some serious damage to a bystander with rebounding projectiles.

Dan

 

[arnoldb]

Johnthomp, please, like I stated in my earlier post, I didn't want to be misunderstood. It appears that I was - by more people than yourself. Please accept my apologies for wrong wording on my part. I assure you , my intentions were good and totally without malice towards yourself. Sorry.

As to the pressure cooker question:

First off, I'll admit I also have limited experience of boilers, and I'll also admit at one point the thought to use one to power an engine crossed my mind as well.
I am more familiar with pressure cookers than boilers as I do like cooking myself and pressure cookers are a great time-saver for some homely stews. I'll give a bit of my thoughts.

There are a wide variety of pressure cookers available with different methods of controlling pressure. Some use screw-on spring loaded pressure regulators that act the same as safety valves on boilers. Others have a fancier "dial type" regulator to control pressure. I own and use examples of both these types to cook food to fill my tummy.
Other types of pressure cooker use a weight placed on a coupling at the top of the lid to control pressure - like has been mentioned in an earlier thread. Inevitably, the easiest one to use for potentially running an engine would be these ones, as the coupling is nothing more than a piece of pipe protruding from the lid, and the examples I've seen are just about the perfect size to shove a bit of pipe over. #1 BAD idea - read further...

Many (if not most) of the newer types of pressure cooker have a slot on the edge of the lid where the rubber sealing the lid to the pot can blow out under excessive pressure. These are sometimes prone to leaking, and I have to my horror seen people blocking these safety ports up. I have also seen pressure cookers with a rubber "safety plug" in the lid that would pop out rather than the slot on the side of the lid.

Having stated the above, inevitably someone wanting to use a pressure cooker to run a steam engine would try to connect a steam supply line to the pressure cooker. The easiest way and most obvious route would entail removing the purpose-designed and engineered pressure control mechanism and connecting the pipe there. That means there would be no form of pressure regulation left. <Maybe> the rim blow-out or safety plug blow-out could save one's butt - but that's not tested either. And some of the older type pressure cookers I've seen does not even have the rim or plug blow-out. So it's very likely that one might be totally over-pressurizing the pressure cooker - with no means to indicate such overpressurization.

There is the other matter of the state a second hand pressure cooker could be in after a yard/garage/flea shop sale by the time someone might be tempted to use it as a boiler... If it was deemed good - or bad as the case may be - enough to get sold off, either it was not working to its optimum use any more, or the person selling it needs cash badly. Nevertheless, it would be unknown, untested and potentially unsafe.

I have first-hand seen what an exploded pressure cooker could do to a kitchen (fortunately not my kitchen) - that's not a pretty sight, and fortunately no-one was in the kitchen when the pot went bang. That was in normal use - but the pressure cooker was filled a bit too full, and food bits clogged the pressure regulator.

I love live steam, and have been putting quite a bit of effort into research into boilers - and there is a lot of information to take in and digest on the matter. I'll definitely be building boilers in future - and some will be experimental, but built within good sensible guidelines and with a lot of calculations to check the designs and proper stress loadings and operating pressures.

Kind regards, Arnold

 

[putputman]

Thanks Zee, for asking that question. I had the same thing in mind. I have built several small "steam engines", that I run on compressed air. I like the sound and the effect of engines running on steam. It just looks and sounds differant. I have often thought of using a pressure cooker by just tapping into the cover and using it that way. My mother and my wife have used pressure cooker for year so they must be safe if used with the supplied safety valves.

I have moved on to I.C. engines and really didn't want to spend the time building a boiler. I have followed threads on building boilers and they require a lot off knowledge & time. Safety is probably the biggest concern with steam, but I really don't think a hole in the cover of a pressure cooker would be of great concern as long as the safety valves were in good condition.

The statement that Tel made about the amount of pressure and steam that a pressure cooker provides makes me think it would not be worth the cost & trouble modifying a pressure cooker to run these small engines. Is there another simple and inexpensive way to run some of these engines on steam or is the best advise to just stick with the compressed air.

 

[Dan Rowe]

Pat,
The safety valve test is called the safety valve accumulation test in the AMBSC code. It is done with all the steam outlet valves closed and full firing rate. All the steam passes through the safety valve. If the pressure goes over 10% of the maximum working pressure the safety valve is considered failed.

This is a prudent test as the reliving capacity data is not usually available for model size safety valves. There are other rules on how to size a safety valve but the accumulation test is the final go no go test for the safety valve.

Dan

 

[FIXIT]

Yes i fully agree anyboiler with easily modified safety devices are very dangerous as we all know the experimenters among us have the little man on our shoulders saying "if we just &$%#(*& that should be OK"

anyhow to maybe answer JorgensensSteam's question I've uploaded a PDF of testing model steam boilers to
Downloads and uploads.

Steve

 

[johnthomp]

id just like to point out that as soon as i saw bogs response to the original cooker remark i altered /censored / erased the offending remark
forgive me if i have already said this before but i cant remember if i have or not anyway me head is a bit of a mess right now with some family issues between my brother and mum

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Excellent replies, thoughts, and experiences.

I'm in no position to give advice but...perhaps a summary of what everyone is saying?

"It's dangerous to modify (or use) a tool (pressure cooker) to do something it wasn't designed to do (run steam engines)."

You have to really really know what you're doing and the possible consequences (or at least know they exist).

...happy that this thread has turned positive.

Just saw your reply johnthomp...I hope things work out soon.

 

[johnthomp]

hopefully theyll be sorted out on sunday when i visit me mum if need be ill just exert some big brother warnings towards him hes just getting outa hand lately personally i think hes still doing drugs and needs a slap

 

[Ned Ludd]

Hi Guys,
If you want just one good reason for not using a pressure cooker as a boiler, how about a lack of a water level indicator.
Ned

 

[SAM in LA]

Excellent replies, thoughts, and experiences.

I'm in no position to give advice but...perhaps a summary of what everyone is saying?

"It's dangerous to modify (or use) a tool (pressure cooker) to do something it wasn't designed to do (run steam engines)."

You have to really really know what you're doing and the possible consequences (or at least know they exist).

...happy that this thread has turned positive.

This brings to mind one of my favorite Southern quips

"Last words of a Southerner, Hey y'all, watch this."

:big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:

SAM

 

[radfordc]

I'm sure using a pressure cooker must be dangerous as hell...or Bogs wouldn't have made such an issue of it. But I haven't seen one response yet that makes the case. We know that millions of pressure cookers are used every day with few accidents. We know that fundamentally a boiler is only a specialized pressure cooker and vice versa.

We've heard about too much fire and water...so turn down the fire and don't fill the pot. We've heard about disabling the safety valve...so don't disable the valve. We've heard about no sight gauge...so don't run the thing more than five minutes at a time.

Come on guys, what's the real reason?

Charlie