Casting your own steam engine castings?

Home Model Engine Machinist Forum

Help Support Home Model Engine Machinist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Ha! Just as you say. I am trying to find out the physical sizes of some crucibles, as I intend to build a furnace around the crucible, rather than first build the furnace then select a crucible.

The total thermal output of a furnace depends on the volume available for air/fuel to burn. If you shrink wrap the furnace around the crucible, two things will reduce furnace output.
1. If the combustion volume is too small, the furnace will take longer to heat the melt.
2. The furnace wall area will be reduced. Radiant heat from the furnace wall is the main energy source for heating the crucible. Reducing the furnace size reduces the surface area. and the radiant heat. I did the calcs a while ago and from memory, about 75% (or something like that) of heat is from the wall.

Conversely, there are a number of good reasons not to oversize the furnace. There is almost certainly an optimal size furnace for a given crucible size, but I don't know how to calculate that. A non-optimal furnace will increase time and/or fuel required to do a melt. Not a show stopper.
 
The total thermal output of a furnace depends on the volume available for air/fuel to burn. If you shrink wrap the furnace around the crucible, two things will reduce furnace output.
1. If the combustion volume is too small, the furnace will take longer to heat the melt.
2. The furnace wall area will be reduced. Radiant heat from the furnace wall is the main energy source for heating the crucible. Reducing the furnace size reduces the surface area. and the radiant heat. I did the calcs a while ago and from memory, about 75% (or something like that) of heat is from the wall.

Conversely, there are a number of good reasons not to oversize the furnace. There is almost certainly an optimal size furnace for a given crucible size, but I don't know how to calculate that. A non-optimal furnace will increase time and/or fuel required to do a melt. Not a show stopper.
Yes, of course. Even so, my problem is the size of the crucible--all else depends on that, ultimately. However, I thimpfks that the first furnace I build will be a "propane tank" furnace for aluminum. I wants to get a bit of understanding before I goes to brass and/or iron. Iron is my goal, long term. I will, I know, do the opposite of what I said at antoher time, that is, instead of building the furnace to the size of the crucible, I will build a furnace and then get a crucible that will fit inside that.
 
Here are Morgan Salamander-Super A-shape crucibles in inch dimensions (for the non-metric types like myself).
Note that the bilge shaped crucibles will hold more metal for a given size, but bilge crucibles are not as readily available as A-shaped.

Super-Salamander A-shape

Size Top OD Bottom OD Height Brass Capacity CI Capacity AL Capacity
inches inches inches pounds pounds pounds

A0.5 2.625 1.875 3.125 2.2 1.98 0.7
A3 4.125 2.75 5.0 8.2 7.38 2.7
A5 4.875 3.375 6.0 15 13.5 4.9
A6 5.11 3.74 6.49 20 18 6.4
A10 6.29 4.33 7.87 40 36 11
A16 7.24 5.11 9.13 51 46 16
A20 7.75 5.70 10.23 66 60 21
B20 7.75 5.70 10.5 74 67 24
A25 8.26 6.10 11.02 79 71 26
A30 9.13 6.29 11.41 95 86 31
A40 9.12 6.25 12.5 120 108 40
 
The software is distoring the data a bit (removing the spaces).
Here is another view of it.

Image884.jpg
 
I think JasonB is right in that the space required around a crucible is as much about getting the lifting tongs into place as it is about combustion.
I have seen some pretty tight furnaces work with melting iron, and they had more like 1" around the crucible, instead of the more typically recommended 2-3" clearance.

.
 
The software is distoring the data a bit (removing the spaces).
Here is another view of it.

View attachment 131753
Ah, thanx. To start with, I thimpfk (without having the furnace built yet) something like the A5 is about right size.

And absolutely about the tongs--that is part of my calculations. I don't want an extremely tight fit, as I thimpfks that banging the sides of the hot oven could damage the bricks or mortar or whatever it is called on the inside of the furnace.
 
This is the first comment I have seen on cracking and air bleed in a home foundry. I have been speculating that hot liner cracking would lead to problematic hot air bleeds. It is a problem on full sized furnaces.

I have been considering controlling (throttling) burner air flow by diverting surplus air into the cavity between the hot liner and the exterior sheet metal shell. Ideally this would raise the air pressure slightly above the furnace pressure. Air would then leak into the furnace. I expect this would not be enough to cool the hot liner, but it would reduce the damaging effects hot air bleed leakage. I suspect the added injection of fresh heated oxygen rich air through cracks would slightly increase furnace combustion temperature.

The way I was thinking of implementing this feature is to drill a series of holes in the burner tube along a helix. I would then have a value tube that was a sliding fit over(or inside) the burner tube. If the holes are located between the hot liner and the shell, any uncovered holes will dump pressurised air into the cavity. Sliding the value tube in/out would throttle the burner air flow and the cavity air flow.
The easiest way to handle cracking is to just patch the cracks with a slight amount of refractory, or better yet 3,800 F plastic refractory.
A little plastic refractory will really work wonders on cracked refractory.
Here is an example.

I used a metal band around my 1" thick cast refractory hot face, and I think that exacerbated the cracking.
I lifted my hot face to put it in the van (for taking the furnace to a local show), and the hot face fell into about four pieces.
All of the pieces were solid, and not crumbling, and when I got to the show, they were patching the cuplolas with plastic refractory.
I borrowed some of their plastic refractory (the stuff is like stiff puddy), and patched my hot face back togther.

I continue to use this hot face, and the cracks have not opened up again.
3,800 F plastic refractory is some really tough stuff, as is the Mizou cast refractory that this hot face is made from.

Someone asked if you have to go through a long dry-out schedule after using plastic refractory, and the answer is no, just fire the furnace on a lower burner setting for about 10 minutes, and then go to full burner output.
 

Attachments

  • rImg_3784.jpg
    rImg_3784.jpg
    148.4 KB
  • rImg_3786.jpg
    rImg_3786.jpg
    143.6 KB
  • rImg_3785.jpg
    rImg_3785.jpg
    151.8 KB
  • rImg_3787.jpg
    rImg_3787.jpg
    155.9 KB
  • rImg_3788.jpg
    rImg_3788.jpg
    168 KB
  • rImg_3789.jpg
    rImg_3789.jpg
    216.4 KB
  • rImg_3791.jpg
    rImg_3791.jpg
    179.1 KB
  • rImg_3793.jpg
    rImg_3793.jpg
    170.8 KB
  • rImg_3794.jpg
    rImg_3794.jpg
    220.2 KB
  • rImg_3796.jpg
    rImg_3796.jpg
    195 KB
More photos of the rebuild while at a local iron show.
My furnace is modular, ie: the insulating fire bricks are not physically adhered to the hot face, and this allows repair and/or replacement of the hot face without damaging the expensive insulating fire bricks.
 

Attachments

  • r20190518_144730.jpg
    r20190518_144730.jpg
    131 KB
  • r20190518_173145.jpg
    r20190518_173145.jpg
    85.9 KB
  • r20190518_202639.jpg
    r20190518_202639.jpg
    62.6 KB
  • r20190518_195551.jpg
    r20190518_195551.jpg
    81.7 KB
This is the furnace after I got it home from the show, and the interior looked pristine.
There is really no reason to discard a hot face, even if it is cracked.
Just patch it.
If you use a low grade/low temperature rated refractory, it will crumble at iron temperatures, and there is no patching that (don't ask me how I know this, LOL; proverbial trial-by-fire thing I guess).

I seal any cracks, no matter how slight, every time I fire the furnace. It just takes a tiny amount of plastic refractory to do this.
Cracks don't seem to propagate nearly as bad if you seal the small ones every time you use the furnace.
If you let a crack open up, it causes a lot of problems with injecting hot gasses behind the hot face into areas that are only rated for 2,600 F.

.
 

Attachments

  • rImg_3884.jpg
    rImg_3884.jpg
    234.5 KB
  • rImg_3886.jpg
    rImg_3886.jpg
    428.4 KB
  • rImg_3890.jpg
    rImg_3890.jpg
    196.8 KB
  • rImg_3893.jpg
    rImg_3893.jpg
    141.2 KB
  • rImg_3898.jpg
    rImg_3898.jpg
    99.8 KB
  • rImg_3899.jpg
    rImg_3899.jpg
    166 KB
  • rImg_3900.jpg
    rImg_3900.jpg
    152 KB
Last edited:
More photos of the rebuild while at a local iron show.
My furnace is modular, ie: the insulating fire bricks are not physically adhered to the hot face, and this allows repair and/or replacement of the hot face without damaging the expensive insulating fire bricks.
Oh, very nice, very jealous. do you have marshmallows and hotdogs? Mustard?
 
Those art-iron folks are really fun to be around.
Extremely creative bunch, and very good about sharing information/tricks about casting iron too.

They use coke by the truckload at the local event near me, sometimes operating three cupolas at once.

.
 

Attachments

  • r20190517_112824.jpg
    r20190517_112824.jpg
    91.5 KB
  • r20190517_112853.jpg
    r20190517_112853.jpg
    93.5 KB
  • r20190517_113112.jpg
    r20190517_113112.jpg
    88.1 KB
  • r20190517_113130.jpg
    r20190517_113130.jpg
    76.7 KB
  • r20190517_113528.jpg
    r20190517_113528.jpg
    99.7 KB
  • r20190517_114936.jpg
    r20190517_114936.jpg
    151.9 KB
  • R120190519_170726.jpg
    R120190519_170726.jpg
    378.6 KB
  • r20190517_112848.jpg
    r20190517_112848.jpg
    87.1 KB
The local art-iron folks have been a great resource for me, especially regarding using resin-bound sand, which they seem to use exclusively in the art world.
Great folks to be around too, and very supportive.

.
 

Attachments

  • RImg_7749.jpg
    RImg_7749.jpg
    139.7 KB
  • RImg_7763.jpg
    RImg_7763.jpg
    105.8 KB
  • RImg_7905.jpg
    RImg_7905.jpg
    117.9 KB
  • RImg_7907.jpg
    RImg_7907.jpg
    216.7 KB
  • RImg_7937.jpg
    RImg_7937.jpg
    118.8 KB
  • RImg_7946.jpg
    RImg_7946.jpg
    98.5 KB
  • RImg_7998.jpg
    RImg_7998.jpg
    105.3 KB
  • RImg_8005.jpg
    RImg_8005.jpg
    138.2 KB
  • RImg_8077.jpg
    RImg_8077.jpg
    171.3 KB
If you ever get a chance to attent an art-iron event, I highly recommend it.
Its an awesome experience.
The first photo is the woman in charge of tapping the cupola.
 

Attachments

  • rIMG_1665.jpg
    rIMG_1665.jpg
    83.7 KB
  • rIMG_1670.jpg
    rIMG_1670.jpg
    132 KB
  • rIMG_1697.jpg
    rIMG_1697.jpg
    162.1 KB
  • rIMG_1699.jpg
    rIMG_1699.jpg
    153.6 KB
  • rIMG_1702.jpg
    rIMG_1702.jpg
    148.9 KB
  • rIMG_3739.jpg
    rIMG_3739.jpg
    228.5 KB
  • rIMG_3740.jpg
    rIMG_3740.jpg
    194.5 KB
  • rIMG_3744.jpg
    rIMG_3744.jpg
    227.8 KB
  • rIMG_3748.jpg
    rIMG_3748.jpg
    206.1 KB
  • rIMG_3754.jpg
    rIMG_3754.jpg
    122.8 KB
A few more photos.
The pouring ladle is a high temperature fiber unit, and very lighweight and insulating.
I really did not believe you could pour iron into a lighweight synthetic ladle, but indeed you can.

.
 

Attachments

  • rIMG_3762.jpg
    rIMG_3762.jpg
    104.5 KB
  • rIMG_3763.jpg
    rIMG_3763.jpg
    126.5 KB
  • rIMG_3766.jpg
    rIMG_3766.jpg
    279 KB
  • rIMG_3773.jpg
    rIMG_3773.jpg
    216.8 KB
this thread has been very informative. Thanks for taking the time to share the information.
What is the brand name of the high temp refractory you are using to patch your furnace and where did you get it?
My propane furnace has developed a couple of cracks that i would like to fill.
 
The brand of high temperature plastic refractory I use is called "Plastic A", but it would seem that it must be made locally, since I have only found one source for it, and it does not seem like that is a national brand name, and not a manufacturer's name associated with it either.
It comes in a brown box with a stamped label reading "Plastic A".

The foundry supply houses are generally wholesale, and they sell bulk products, often by the ton.
It is rare to find a foundry supply house that will sell small amounts of anything, and if they do sell a small amount, it is generally 100 lbs minimum.
I have had some suppliers sell me some small quantities, and it was so much trouble for them that they no longer return my calls or emails.
I have walked into foundry supply warehouses and literally begged them to sell me small quantities of materials; most will not sell to an amateur/hobby person.

Finding quality foundry supplies is quite challenging.

A few notes on foundry safety (for those who decide to try foundry work):

For any foundry product that is purchased, you should get the MSDS (material safety data sheet) for it, and keep those sheets in a binder.
Many foundry products can be hazardous if not used and handled correctly (with the correct safety gear).
Inhaling silica sand dust, ceramic blanket fibers, cast refractory dust, parting compound dust, etc can cause you to need a lung transplant, and it is essential that commercial respirators that completely filter this material be used when you are handling and using it.

Uncoated ceramic blanket type furnaces should not be used.

Combustion type furnaces should not be used indoors, due to the fire hazards, and the hazards of low oxygen situations, and especially carbon monoxide situations. One hobby guy reported last year that he was operating his furnace in his shed, but with the door open.
Due to either low oxygen or carbon monoxide buildup (in spite of the open door) he got dizzy and stumbled outside, and passed out.
He eventually was discovered and rushed to the hospital where they were able to save him, but the doctor said that his blood oxygen level was so low when he arrived at the hospital that normally this condition is irreversible and fatal. He was very lucky.

Some folks go to the scrap yard and buy metals that are toxic. There is a type of brass/bronze that should never be melted and machined, and I forget the name of it unfortunately. Some folks try to burn the plastic off of electrical wiring, and those fumes are extremely toxic, and can do permanent damage in seconds even when inhaling just a slight wiff of them.

Zinc fumes can cause some ill effects, and should be avoided.
Alloys of brass and bronze can have zinc in them, and the zinc will burn off before you reach melt temperature.

I stick with known metals such as 356 aluminum, and gray iron scrap that breaks cleanly with a sledge hammer.

I wear nitrile gloves when handling foundry materials to avoid skin exposure.

Waste motor oil is known to contain heavy metals, and is one reason I use diesel.
The other reason I use diesel is that it is clean and uniform, with low viscosity.
Diesel will self-light using a siphon or pressure nozzle burner down to at least 35F, whereas waste oil often has to be mixed with 20-30% diesel.
Waste oil is often contaminated with toxic compounds such as antifreeze, water, or other materials, and often required straining to remove solids that will clog many burner nozzles.
I have heard that hydraulic fluid/oil is very toxic when burned.


Alternate materials/suppliers:

One way I have worked around the foundry supply difficulties is to find alternate hobbies that may use some of the same materials.
Kiln and pottery suppliers sell small quantities of high temperature materials that can be used to patch refractory in kilns or furnaces.

One material that I used a few years ago was called ITC-100, but it has gotten very expensive.
I have also used ITC-200, and I think it is less expensive and costs less.
Both of these products will dry out over time (and sometimes arrive from the suppplier dried out), in which case they can be ground back into a powder and a little water added to rejuvenate them. Never discard ITC product; it is expensive.

One company I have purchased from online (a pottery supplier) is called Clay Planet
https://shop.clay-planet.com/raw-materials.aspx
Here is a list of materials from the Clay Planet website:
https://shop.clay-planet.com/glazematerials.aspx
One product that I have not tried is bentonite, but I have seen it used as a spray-on coating for ceramic blanket for furnace interiors.
A good and inexpensive sprayer for slurry materials such as a bentonite powder/water mix is cheapest sandblaster gun that Harbor Freight makes (about $20.00 US).
I have sprayed on a slurry mix of ITC-100 on furnace interiors until the price became too excessive.

Some raw materials here including bentonite:
https://shop.clay-planet.com/raw-materials.aspx
Here is some ITC-200 for sale, and I have used it for crack repair, and it works well.
I have not purchased from this particular supplier.
https://www.ceramaterials.com/product/itc-200ez-ceramic-fill/
ITC-100 is on this page, and is much more expensive than ITC-200. I don't think ITC-100 is needed for furnace repair. It is used more as a spray on reflective coating for furnace interiors. For an iron furnace, your furnace interior will soon be coated with slag, and so don't waste your money on ITC-100 for an interior furnace coating.
https://www.ceramaterials.com/itc-coatings/
Insulating fire bricks (IFB) generally can be found in the 2,600 F rating range, and get very expensive at ratings above that.
2,600 F IFB's will not stand up to iron temperatures, and will crumble after just one firing with an oil burner, unless you use perhaps 3,000 F IFB's.
Insulating fire bricks can be hand-cut or drilled using a wood or hacksaw (avoid the dust), and so are very easy to work with.

Tractor supply and many other places sell hard fire bricks, and they stand up to iron temperatures.
Hard fire bricks cannot be easily cut, and are generally wet-cut using diamond-type tools.

.
 
Some people make the mistake identifying magnesium as aluminum (there is some sort of a test, I think with something acidic to check for magnesium; you will have to research this).

They toss a chunck of magnesium into a molten crucible of alumium, and start a very intense fire and/or explosion that cannot be extinguished.
The crucible is destroyed, and whatever is nearby sometimes gets burned to the ground.
The magnesium will continue to burn until it burns itself out, and there is no stopping it.

Avoid magnesium.

.
 
If I did not have plastic refractory, I would use either ITC-200, or purchase some bentonite, and mix a small amount of it into a putty and try that to patch the furnace interior.
I have not used bentonite, and am not sure how well it would work at iron temperatures, so take your chances with that.
.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top