British 0-4-0 Toy Locomotive: he said

[zeeprogrammer]

Frazer...I'd like to find the fellow who said computers are friendly...I'd like to introduce him to mine. :big:

Jim...you're absolutely right. The chimney goes on the other end. As for the elbows...I'm not a big believer in multi-purpose tools...but there are exceptions. :big:

Dean and Trout...exactly that...it's difficult to find the balance between those who know nothing at all to appreciate what you're doing and those that know so much not do appreciate what you're doing.

...geesh...this took about 15 minutes to type...but I'm celebrating with the kids...

always a nice reminder...family first...

Now let's see if I can stick a song in their head...

The worms crawl in...?
A hundred bottles of beer on the wall...?
Chicken train..running all day...?
Somewhere over the rainbow...?

Oh they're going to kill me regardless...

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Aw rats.
I'm going to bed.

 

[Maryak]

Zee,

Could you turn the bolt thing into a stay bolt soldered to both end caps and still have your threaded end poking out. ???

Boilers of any size are a PITA in that to repair a bad bit, you usually have to remove 3 times the amount of good bits, just to get at it.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[Groomengineering]

Hey Zee, looking good! I'm sure you'll get that pesky stud problem straightened out in no time. Anyway, as to polishing the chrome you might check into this http://www.blue-job.net/ , I've never used it but remembered seeing it advertised back when I rode.

Jeff

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks Bob. Very interesting idea. I'm going to have another go with the jig I made to hold the stud...and if that doesn't work then I'm going to try it.
Very slick and would look just fine too. Thanks!

I'm tempted to go for that anyway. Do you think leaving the stud inside the boiler would be a problem? Hm..if I go this way I can just make the hole on the other end big enough to get the stud out and make the 'cap' of the stay big enough to cover it. Cool. Hm...put a shoulder on the cap and the round nut so it centers in the holes of end sheets. Oh yeah...I'm liking this.

Jeff. Thanks. I may try that if the rest of the parts actually clean up well enough to put the chrome to shame.

Now watch...the one bushing is going to fall out. If that happens...

 

[Maryak]

Do you think leaving the stud inside the boiler would be a problem?

Provided you use the correct material of the correct diameter for your working pressure - No problem.

i.e. your stay should be copper or cupro nickel, (400 monel, R405 monel), and around 3/16" dia. Bigger is not a problem.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[Deanofid]

Do you think leaving the stud inside the boiler would be a problem?

If you mean, if the stud thing falls inside the boiler, can you leave it there and just seal it inside, shouldn't hurt a thing. It will be a 'stud mummy', forever sealed in it's tomb.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks Bob and Dean.

Bob...copper stay? That'd be a problem as I have none large enough. Brass wouldn't do?

Dean...'stud mummy'...nice one. :big:

Just about to have the last go at fixing the stud...we have 3 possible outcomes...listen for...

1) Hooray! It worked!
2) Rats! On to Bob's idea.
3) A dim wail...the bushing fell out.

I'm surprised I started the list on a positive note.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

"Hoo"...uh...what?...yeah...I think so...yeah..."ray".

Well...it seems to have worked. A bit of a scare though.
I was heating it up...heating, heating, heating...waiting for the solder to melt and wick.
Worried that the bushing would let go.
Working it front and back...waiting for the wicking or the bush to let go.

Just as it wicked...the aluminum bar holding everything together...melted and fell over!!!

Turned off the heat...got the needle nose pliers and managed to knock most of the aluminum off.

Dunked it in the pickle...sizzle pop.

Looking okay. But there's a blob of aluminum sitting on the stud.
But I'm thinking...I bet it'll come off easy...two dissimilar metals like that...it ain't melted to it.

Aha!

It may not look like much...but I'm a happy guy.
Now I just have the other bushing to do...that one should go well...he said.

I'm almost (almost) disappointed. I thought Bob's idea was great.
I'd still like to know if it has to be copper or if it could have been brass.

Thanks guys!!!

 

[Maryak]

Zee,

Sorry but brass is a no no. It will de-zinc and crumble.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Bob,

I've read that on the forum. But I'm not sure how it applies here.

The end sheets, bushing, and stud are all brass. Even the boiler is brass covered in chrome. In fact, the only copper in this model is the tube coming from the steam dome to the porting blocks. (And I'm thinking that's only because I have to bend it.)

I remember the earlier discussion about brass and de-zincing. It wasn't clear to me whether it was a problem over time...or if the brass was overheated.

If brass being overheated is a problem...then I may have indeed done that.

Perhaps that's why there's been a question about using silver solder or plumber's solder for this toy.

Thanks Bob. I'll be interested in your thoughts.

P.S. Not that I'm concerned. I'll be happy if it runs a few times. Depending on my success...I'll never do this again...or I'll have moved on to more substantial models...hopefully the latter. ;D

 

[Maryak]

Zee,

Some of the small toy, (Mamod etc.), boilers were/are made from brass and operate at very low pressures, (<15psi). As your boiler appears to fit into this category then I guess a brass stay would not be amiss.

The de-zincing of brass is a function of time. temperature and environment. The time is reduced as temperature is increased. The more the environment enables an increase in potential difference to occur, the more rapid will be the loss of the zinc and structural collapse of the alloy as a whole. Well at least that's my take on it.

IMHO the choice of silver solder v plumbers solder is more related to temperature, i.e. if the boiler runs low on water the potential for failure is far greater with low melting point soft/plumbers solder, not only does silver solder have a higher melting point, (as you found out when it melted the aluminium bar, next time use a rusty iron one), it has a much higher bond strength. There could be some differences in X Ocean terminology of soft, plumbers and silver solder. On this side of the pond plumbers solder is a lead/tin 70/30 or sometimes 60/40 soft solder. The other consideration is the choice of flux and the potential for residual flux to cause corrosion, e.g. killed spirits. (muriatic acid), commonly used with soft solders.

Sorry to prattle on like a frustrated chemist, believe me you are at if not over the limits of my knowledge. Despite that I hope I have helped a little.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[tmuir]

Zee brass on a toy low pressure boiler such as you are making if looked after will last more than your life time as long as you empty the boiler after each use and store it with the safety valve out to allow it to dry out.
If you store it in a wet locaction or leave water in the boiler, it may only last a few years.
I've got brass toy steam engines over 80 years old that are still sound with no dezinc as they were stored in dry locations.

As you won't be steaming this every week for hours at a time don't worry about dezinc.
Avoid using deionised water in it though, distilled water is the best thing to use.

 

[b.lindsey]

Am still following along Zee...and the boiler looks great, despite the few hiccups. As always the discussions of various issues or techniques is a help to many of us I'm sure. Keep up the fine work.

Bill

 

[fcheslop]

Congratulations Zee one more hurdle out of the way.Bet that congratulatory drink tasted good :big:.As to the brass boiler I have a couple nearly 90 years old and as Tmuir mentions they are fine as long as they are stored correctly. Best of luck with the rest of the build

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks for the explanation Bob. I mentioned plumber's solder but was referring to what they call 'silver solder' at Home Depot. I think it's less than 4%.

Right or wrong...whenever I hear 60/40 I think of solder for electronics. Very soft. But that's because I've used that for 30 years in my job and prior hobby.

Thanks tmuir. And thanks for the reminder to use distilled water.

Thanks Bill. Yeah this forum is the best for helpful information.

Thanks fcheslop.


Dreamed all night about soldering on the last part (bushing) to the boiler. A nightmare or two about the other bushing falling out...but I don't think it'll happen.

And then the next fun part...soldering the tubing to the porting blocks and steam dome. It's supposed to be done in situ but I'm concerned about the scorching that will occur to the frames and how to mount the blocks without the cylinders (although the manual shows the cylinders installed too).

I'd been thinking of making a jig to do this...probably out of aluminum. After yesterday's adventure I will rethink that. ;D In situ is looking better all the time.

 

[mklotz]

Re not melting out the first bushing while soldering the second...

I'm just winging it here but could you make a close-fitting aluminum "plug" for the first bushing that would act as a heat sink to draw heat away from the bushing while the second bushing is heated? Similar to using a heat sink on a delicate transistor lead while soldering?

If said heat sink were larger in diameter than the bushing hole and mechanically attached to the bushing at worst it would prevent the bushing from falling into the boiler. A wet rag wrapped around the heat sink would help it to lose heat faster.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Ah you were reading my mind Marv.

I was thinking of screwing on the safety valve (chimney), or the tire hose connector, or the other thingy used for testing (can't remember the name of it but I think it's used for testing pressure).

One is brass, one is steel, and the other may be aluminum or steel (I'm at work and can't remember).
If it's aluminum...I'll use it.

I was also thinking of wrapping a wet rag but around the entire boiler on the bottom half. The bushing left to do is very near the other end.

Thanks.

 

[mklotz]

No, Carl, I was reading *my* mind. (And a horrible, cynical and slightly pronographic miasma it is - like a travelogue written by P. J. O'Rourke.)

If it's feasible to solder the bush with the boiler standing vertically, it might be possible to simply stand the boiler in a pan of water such that the already-soldered bush is submerged. I've done something similar on a couple of things and it worked.

The risk, of course, is that the heat sink may work too well and prevent you from bringing the bush to be soldered to temperature. However, the boiler is thin-walled so it can't conduct heat away too effectively.

Whatever you try, ensure that the boiler interior is vented to the atmosphere while soldering. DAMHIKT.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

So how does one express it?

The boiler is ruined.

The bushing ended up with a leak.

First attempt to fix resulted in a smaller leak.
Second attempt resulted in still a leak and solder running down the side.
It looks pretty shoddy.

Maybe I got a little scared too. Once the front end got cherry red...I was afraid of the cap falling off. I think the bushing was too close to the front end.

I don't think it's repairable...even if it is...it just looks like crap. I have no idea how they can make one to look like the prototype.

1st choice...do it again...end caps, bushing, stud, and drain pipe. Possible.
2nd choice...trash it and go on to another project. Very appealing.
3rd choice...try again and wrap even more solder on it. Least palatable.
4th choice...set it aside for a few days and reconsider 1st and 2nd choices.

I'll go for 4th choice. Then I'll probably go for 3rd choice...I mean...if it's ruined anyway...

And oh yeah...


RATS!