Ban on small engines in California

[ajoeiam]

Sales information is about the future. It will take years to replace the current IC vehicles, but it's starting to happen. There are several countries where electric car sales share is high lead by Norway at around 75%. It's already over 10% in Europe. I believe Tesla sold more cars in California in September than any other brand. Electric pickups and semis haven't been available, but are coming. I think low operating costs will make them a no brainer for commercial users.

Plug in electric mowers have been available a long time. Batteries are just starting to replace power cords. Do you want to trade your electric washing machine for a gas powered one? That conversion happened in the last half of the 20th century. It won't be long before the same thing happens with most small gasoline powered tools. That will leave a lot of junk engines for people to invent things with just like the Maytag gas washing machine engines. We've already started that trend in our model race boas with weedeater type engines. However, battery electric power is starting to take off even there.

Lohring Miller

Hmmmm - - - - I'm a self confessing efficiency nerd (seriously anal about it - - - - I've been logging fuel consumption since my first car and things haven't gotten better - - - only worse!

Battery power is incredibly inefficient!
Not so you say - - - - please calculate:
1. your charging efficiency.
2. your in use efficiency.
3. actual cost of energy

Then there is the power transmission efficiency to worry about (hint - - - - it sucks!!!!!!!!!!) and then there's your actual power generation efficiency (where even solar isn't that hot except in a very very narrow range of situations).

Re: electric auto sales - - - - Norway uses hydro-electric power for about 98% of their power (funny - - - -its NOT 100% - - - those pesky outages!!!) so there are some seriously wonderful advantages for their power company (state owned) in the mandating of electric vehicles.

Both electric pickups and semis are available but imo (notice the imo please) neither those nor electric cars really make sense.
From an efficiency standpoint I can't really purchase a comparable use vehicle (yes I've checked!!!!) until the price premium for the vehicle is at least 60% and more often 100% that's for cars. For a semi - - - haven't seen any pricing yet but for low usage (only for my own stuff) I have an older unit and it would take likely 100s of years of FREE electricity and use to amortize the added costs. So at this point electric cars are wonderful for those who only look at spending money - - - - but - - - - for those of us who try very very hard NOT to spend money - - - - electric vehicles are a wonderful dream and not at all a realistic option. Now if you wish to GIVE me an electric vehicle is have some minimum specs! The car needs to be able to travel 225 miles (350 km) per charge in temperatures of -40 (same in both F and C) with me comfortable in the cabin. The semi - - - - need at least 1000 km of range and the pickup I would live with only 500 km (375 miles) of range. Any less - - - - I just can't use toys you see.

 

[ajoeiam]

Gas washing machine? Haven't seen one.
snip

We had one - - - quite a few years ago.

 

[ajoeiam]

My point is that change is comming. It's a Kodak (you still buy their film, right?) moment for fossil fuels. How many of you still have land lines connected to rotary phones? In our area the phone company won't run new lines to new construction leaving cable or cell phones as the choice. I (78 years old), and most young people use cell phones only.

After centuries of use, horse drawn vehicles were replaced by IC engine powered ones in around 20 years. Why? Because they were lower cost and easier to use. It took a little longer for the infrastructure to catch up. The same is becoming true for electric power in mobile applications. Large boats and aircraft are tough with today's technology, but lower power applications are starting to happen.

I think people are barely starting to realize that electric cars cost less to operate than IC cars. My experience was around $100 lower cost per month 3 years ago. Gasoline prices have been increasing since then while electricity in my area has stayed the same. There is no maintenance except for window wiper and washer fluid and tire replacement. That's why Hertz paid list price for a fleet of electric rental cars.

Lohring Miller

Re: stupid phones - - - - -if only we actually had access - - - - my comment is that from my location cell phone access is somewhat akin to my finding honest politicians - - - nuff said!

Except electric vehicles are NOT more reasonable in price.
There were electric cars at or even slightly before there were IC engine cars.
There have been diesel electric heavy equipment for many years - - - - its a more complex system so most companies no longer offer that.
Heavy large equipment driven using electricity - - - control is more challenging - - - look into it if you think I'm out too lunch.

If you look at the TCO (total cost of ownership) I think you will find that except for premium brands - - - IC cars still win.

Now if all you're trying to do is look green - - - - well then buy away - - - - - but don't you dare try to force me to do the same unless you're prepared to pay for me to do it - - - - - I'm quite tired of all the do gooders who think they know how to do what I do and do it whilst blowing money like it has no value - - - - governments are doing this and have for the last 18 months or so - - - - when that butcher's bill comes due -- - - - well things are going to get very very very ugly!!!

 

[ajoeiam]

AAHH, the human being. Ask the question, "Why is there air?" and thousands of humans will chime in with their opinion on why it's needed and why we don't need it. And remember, opinions are like arm pits, everyone has them and they all stink, even mine. My opinion, the problem is too many humans. We screw up everything. Nature was doing just fine until humans came along. I've seen my life go from rather simple to excruciating complicated. I've likened my life like a strand of spaghetti. At 5, I could follow my strand. Pretty simple. Then it split into 2 choices. OK, I can follow it. Then 2 split into 4, then 4 into 8, etc. Today, it's like you take 200 pounds of cooked spaghetti and dump it on a table. I see my one strand going into the pile and I have no idea where it comes out. Life is complicated, why do we humans make it MORE complicated?

Well - - - -you did insist on buying all the stuff that you own - - - - you likely didn't 'have to' buy most of it.

 

[JLaning427]

Battery power is incredibly inefficient!
Not so you say - - - - please calculate:
1. your charging efficiency.
2. your in use efficiency.
3. actual cost of energy

Then there is the power transmission efficiency to worry about (hint - - - - it sucks!!!!!!!!!!) and then there's your actual power generation efficiency (where even solar isn't that hot except in a very very narrow range of situations).

There's where the the math gets really messy, right?

To look at the efficiency of electric cars, do we need to get all the way back to sunlight, natural gas, oil, or coal? If so, do we need to go further back, to when it was in the ground, sky, etc? And do we need to do the same comparison with gasoline cars? What energy is required to refine gasoline? And emissions generated by the refining process? Or do we only need to look solely at the amount of energy put into the battery (consumed from the charger, including charger losses) versus miles driven? We wouldn't likely look at the pipeline or transportation losses that gasoline would encounter during it's trip to the pump, would we? So why consider it for electricity?

Somebody mentioned the total cost of ownership. And that really is the right metric to be using for many things. I used to work for a 1st tier supplier for a certain big yellow and black tool manufacturer. And that manufacturer changed the sourcing of a bunch of component parts from the USA / Mexico to China, because the part cost was cheaper. But a couple of years later they were moving it back to the USA and Mexico. Y'know why? Because the overall cost was higher. The parts were marginally cheaper, but with shipping going up and up, they basically got back to break even. And the killer was warranty returns for defective parts went for the moon. They couldn't afford to keep sourcing certain parts in China.

Thinking about this thread, the concept of TCO still applies. And maybe we need to apply it to emissions / green-ness. For example, oil production isn't exactly a clean business. But how clean is mining and refining lithium and the various rare earth elements used in today's electric cars? The good part (for CA) is that minimizing oil usage through mandating electric vehicles might help minimize oil related pollution in their state (they have a bunch of oil wells, but will they get shut down or will the production just get shipped to China). And move the production pollution to somebody else's backyard, as I don't think the USA has much in the way of lithium or rare earth reserves. Overall win for CA, right? But what is the overall global difference in environmental impact of building an electric car vs a gasoline one? I don't know, and I'm not sure that too many people do.

BTW, I'm a died in the wool IC guy and don't have any plans to buy an electric car. But I've got an acquaintance of mine who has a Tesla, and he has a pretty detailed spreadsheet of costs that he developed prior to purchasing his (he's an engineer too) and for his usage (probably 300 miles a week) the math worked out in favor of the electric car. It costs him less overall than the IC cars (US Hondas and Toyotas) that he looked at. Something to think about.

James

 

[JLaning427]

BTW, the discussions of electric cars seems way off the topic of the CA SORE ban, but is somewhat relevant since CA has a plan to migrate to all electric vehicles by 2035 or so. And quite a bunch of US states will follow CA's lead. Some won't follow ever (ever heard the expression I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire? I think Texas feels that way about CA). I'm in Maryland, and we're (sadly) likely to follow CA's lead at some point. I just wish we'd evaluate whether CA's choices worked or not before implementing them....

 

[lohring]

I bet no one on this forum has actually driven a Tesla. I bought mine for its performance, not its efficiency. However the energy in the battery is equivalent to around 2 gallons of gasoline. I can go 200 miles on 80% of that if I drive reasonably. But what fun is that when you can go from 50 mph to 90 in seconds.

Lohring Miller

 

[Rocket Man]

Any reading on new Ban in California

Ban on sales of gas power engines under 25 horse power in California
This includes generators , Lawn mowers and the list goes on.

https://b95forlife.iheart.com/conten...awn-equipment/
Just think of pushing to cut your grass or a rake for your yard.
I wonder how long can battery keeps your food cold

Just remember California always have petitions to stop nuts

Stop California To Ban Gas Propane Engines

https://chng.it/fyXybJmX
Dave

When DATE did this start?

WHY does forum posts have NO dates?

 

[Scott_M]

In the upper left hand corner of each post in the blue bar. All posts have dates. this one was started last Fri. 22nd at 2:45pm.

Scott

 

[Rocket Man]

Let me set the record straight.

This has NOTHING to do with clean air. EVERYTHING has an environmental foot print. Everything. Just how do you want to go about it.

And the issue is not pollution as everyone wants to point out, nobody likes breathing smog. This is not the issue. The supposed issue is CO2, a inert gas that is harmless and not poisonous and plants use. We pump this stuff to make plants grow faster.

It's all politics, they have been preaching this dooms day stuff for 60 years. It's a broken record at this point. Every 10 or 15 years, the sky is falling. Yet nothing happens. All Gore said by the 20'teens polar bears would be extinct from the wild. Not only are they are around they are thriving and not even endangered. Thanks to conservation, which oddly enough is funded by legal hunting.....

There are shores that are at the same level for the last 100 years! No rising sea levels.

And I can go on and on. It's all about politics, making a big issue about something that galvanizes a group of people on one issue so they can get reelected. Nothing practical ever gets done. It just political games.

And electric cars are about as wasteful as it comes, only way they are even remotely viable is if/when we develop nuclear power as our primary power source. That's it, if you want to talk about which is better, gas and diesel are way better. It is a much more efficient use of natural resources. This is not an issue that can be compared to horse drawn buggies and the car. This about a down grade in every way as long as you are using fossil fuels as your power source.

And this is conveniently ignoring the MASSIVE logicstal problems faced trying to force a switch to all electric way to soon. It simply won't happen in the crazy short time they want.

One thing is to let electric vehicles and electric alternatives evolve and let market demand for them naturally come about. Something that won't take trillions of dollars we don't have. VS trying to force things to soon.

This is the issue in a nut shell.

And please read everything before you respond (You'd be surprised how many don't), else you are just starting controversy for nothing. And make sure you come up with hard facts and be thorough and logical. Because when you do, you will realize I'm right and there won't be a mud flinging contest.

If you don't, I'll refuse to reply to you. If you try to make me do all the footwork, I'll just say no. You won't belive it unless you do the homework anyway, research it for yourself and answer your own questions. Besides that I don't got the time to spoon feed everyone or argue with everyone.

These are the facts, try and disprove them for yourself. You ain't gonna change my mind on the matter so don't even bother trying.

Technology is available for to force all vehicles to drive the speed limit in town and all highways. Technology is available to force red light runner to stop at all traffic light. Technology is available to prevent people from punching the gas peddle to the floor and driving like a race car. 1000s of gallons of fuel can be saved every day. 1000s of lives can be saves too, there has been 3742 people killed in our State this year from RED LIGHT runners. Police records show we have an average of 39 accidents in our town every day from people that refuse to stop at red lights. I had 2 electric lawn mowers both are such a pain in the #$% I got rid of both. Battery lawn mower has limited power & battery is dead when 12% of the grass is cut. If I charge battery every day and mow grass every day I can not keep up. 200 ft of extension cord makes it very hard to mow grass with the other mower. Electric garden tiller will be a nightmare. I will NEVER buy an electric vehicle.

 

[Rocket Man]

In the upper left hand corner of each post in the blue bar. All posts have dates. this one was started last Fri. 22nd at 2:45pm.

Scott

My computer shows no date???

 

[John Rus]

And yet, after all that, climatologists, people that made a career out of assessing all the factors that go into and have gone into climate change in the past, not engineers and physicist, disagree with those few that say it's not a problem. My perspective is this, considering the consequences of being wrong, who do you believe, the 99.9999% that say it's a problem or the 0.0001% that say it isn't, would you bet an engineering design on the same criteria and what's the downside of not cleaning up?
BTW, this topic should be stopped by the moderators, it's somewhere between politics and religion, facts just don't seem to matter much and it will create hard feelings between factions, it always does.

Again, as I have posted before. You provide no evidence or even a compelling argument.

Most people in the know do not think global warming, how it is promoted today, is even as drastic as they want to make or or man mad.

Second, science is not based consensus. It's based on observable evidence that is repeatable. Global warming is a theory, nothing more. There is no evidence to back it up as the previous poster did a fantastic job with his explanation with hard numbers. Not just, "Well most scientists agree!". It's not a valid argument and certainly not a compelling one. And the problem is that's not even true. Most do not hold that view.

 

[JLaning427]

The SORE ban has not taken effect yet. It was just recently signed into law. I believe it is set to go into effect by 2024 or whenever CARB determines is feasible.

James

 

[Scott_M]

My computer shows no date???

In your screen shot where it says " " minutes ago is where it is. If you look back at the first page it says Last Fri.. If the post is more than a week old it will show a date



Scott

 

[Ken I]

Norway is often held up as a shining example of a successful “green revolution” in that it has the highest percentage of electric vehicles (18%) on its roads.

That is wonderful – but why ?

In Norway fuel burning cars are exceedingly heavily taxed – high taxes on cars, luxury items, road tax vs fuel consumption, massive fuel taxes, congestion taxes in cities etc. etc.

If you buy an electric car it not only has no taxes on it – not even VAT, it has subsidies. You don’t have to pay for recharging – anywhere – all charge points are free – your home charge point is unmetered (that’s free fuel ?).

You don’t pay license fees & taxes, you don’t pay parking fees (all roadside and state parking), you don’t pay to use state ferries (Norway is crisscrossed by fiords and has hundreds of ferry crossings), you don’t pay congestion tax to enter controlled cities, you can drive in “bus only” lanes and you get personal tax breaks on your running expense including insurance.

With the deck stacked that heavily against the fuel burning car I’m surprised that 82% of the vehicles are still fuel burners.

Wow – if I lived there I’d dump my M3 and buy a Tesla right now.

Here’s my problem – who is paying for all that subsidisation, tax breaks and free goods and services ?

That’s right – you or me again (the only two sources of tax). Mostly it is foisted onto the “fuel burning” motorists.

This is likely to provoke a sudden “tipping point” move to electric cars as fuel burning cars will be taxed to death.

What happens when everybody is switched to electric cars ? – they can’t all get to drive in the bus lane and get all those goods, services and tax breaks for free.

It will all be revoked (obviously incrementally rather than in one fell swoop) and you will eventually find you have a car on your hands that might now provoke buyers remorse.

(By 2017 this “tipping point” appears to be closer with 52% of all new vehicles sales being electric and the discovery that 80% of the vehicles in the bus lanes are private cars of wealthy individuals who own multiple cars and can switch to fuel powered at will.

The Norwegian government has therefore cancelled the free pass to the bus lane and now makes all electric cars pay half of the taxes from which they were previously exempt. Needless to say this has caused an uproar.)

I'm not sure how much this has changed since 2017 when I first wrote this - based on these references :-.

Denmark Is Killing Tesla (and Other Electric Cars)

Denmark To Phase Out Electric Car Tax Breaks - Price Of Tesla Model S To Almost Triple

Similarly Tesla sales “fell off a cliff” when the subsidy (our tax dollars) was removed.

Tesla´s Hong Kong sales fall off a cliff

Regards, Ken

 

[mu38&Bg#]

18% of Norway's GPD is oil production which makes up 62% of exports. They are doing their part in regard to oil......... and are increasing output after forecasts 10-20 years ago cast doubt on the future of oil there.

 

[aarggh]

If you really want to see the effects of extreme "green" proposals, just google "solar freakin roadways" by an electronics engineer by the name of Dave from eevblog. He's a brilliant engineer and actually crunches the real numbers and shows the ROI in the most positive and delusional sense is around a 1000 years!

Great for a laugh on a stupid project, but a very sad indictment on the fact that a lot of renewable initiatives aren't borne out of any common sense at all, but politics and propaganda. It's beyond laughable how many countries have poured many billions of dollars into this idiotic idea.

Then have a search at the solution Korea came up with when they installed their solar initiatives for a dose of simple common sense.

 

[Thommo]

The Scottish government have purchased 20 Teslas for transporting the delegates from their hotel at Gleneagles to the conference center for the COP26 conference. The price of the cars is £100k each. Having bought the vehicles the idiots have found that there are no charging points anywhere near the facilities and have had to bring in a bloody great diesel generator to charge the vehicles. So much for climate change and saving the planet, and the Chinese, the largest contaminators on the planet, won't be attending. What a waste of resources. God bless the Scottish government.

Sounds like something the Irish would do

 

[skyline1]

From the comments on here it would appear that CA already has an underpowered electrical supply network. So the idea of of banning the sale of small I.C. engines seems at the very least a doubtful and not well thought out idea.

It would have the effect of throwing the load of all those myriad, Generators, Lawn mowers, Small construction tools and too many other items to list, onto an already ailing electrical supply.

Until you consider why governments, be they local or national, make strange decisions like this. MONEY ! Someone, somewhere with "close connections" to the State's government is going to get "stinking rich" over this possibly the politicians themselves.

As for Electric cars I think all the previous doubts expressed are valid but we may be missing an important "Elephant in the room", that of safety, in particular fire risk.

Petroleum fuels are highly flammable in fact under the right conditions, explosive (good job they are) but petroleum fires can be extinguished far more easily than Lithium fires.

There have been some very serious fires with Electric cars already and there are not that many of them about yet. All Lithium batteries can be dangerous in this respect but the huge ones in Electric cars particularly so as they have the added potential of colliding at high speed.

I don't relish the idea of driving around strapped to a 1200 Lb mobile incendiary bomb !

The Charging points fiasco at COP26 sounds fairly typical of us Brits but it will all be O.K. as long as transport problems don't stop the tea supply. That really would be a national disaster !

Best Regards Mark

 

[Manorfarmer]

False. There is no evidence the Scottish Government has bought 20 Tesla cars ahead of COP26. Jaguar Land Rover was announced in September as an official transport partner for COP26 and is providing over 200 electric vehicles for use at the summit.

This article was produced by the Reuters Fact Check team. Read more about our fact-checking work here .