taking the plunge

[lensman57]

Going to be heading up to grizzly this holiday weekend (one of their four warehouses is about an hour drive) And it was going to be just for looking around, but the more I think about it, the more I get the itch.

I've fairly settled on the G0704 mill/drill with stand, as my first machine. (pending anything else that strikes me when I get to Grizzly)Several things come into play in this decision, versus a lathe first, and it just seems 'right' for me:
- I am looking to transfer jobs inside the company to a milling machine operator, so the experience will help
- I don't have a proper workshop, so the included stand will help
- I was always far more comfortable on the mill than the lathe, in H.S.
- There's lots of neat stuff I can think of to make on a mill... not so much on a lathe.
- with a little ingenuity, many lathe operations can be done on a mill, as I've read around the forum and elsewhere (chuck the part and use vise as toolholder, use a rotary table, etc)

But I'm trying to settle on other things I'll need to get at first, with it. Obviously to some extent this will be based on what I want to make with it first, but there are some absolute basics that I am sure I will need:

end mills
mill vise
wiggler
parallels
v-blocks
flycutter (of some sort? Most i see in pics around here are nothing like what i used to use in h.s.)
DTI (?)
cutting oil (suggestions?)
some sort of chunk of metal to turn into lots of little tiny chunks of metal

anything else I should look at as bare minimums?

I am not expecting my first project to be an engine. It's been nearly 15 years since I did much of anything with true machining (not counting my present job punching holes in $140mln airplanes), so I suspect I will start off with an old project I recall from h.s., the snowflake-in-a-cage. Maybe some other easy stuff i see in project books here and there before i start working on mill-based parts of engines.

Inputs as always greatly appreciated.
- Ryan

Hi Ryan,
A good well made lathe could do some of the jobs that a mill would and a good mill will do some of the jobs that a lathe could do, both subject to size restrictions, but neither is capable of doing all of the stuff of the other.

At the end of the day it all depends on you and your budget and the jobs requirement and if you are going to make money out of production of these parts or if it is just for hobby and prototyping.

Take your time and make sure that you buy the best machine of either type that you can afford, it will save you money and time in the long run.

Regards,

A.G

 

[Blogwitch]

Ryan,

Milling on a lathe. Imagine your cutter being held where the spindle chuck is in a collet holder.

You already have two of the mill axis on a lathe, the saddle fwds/back gives you your Z axis (depth of cut).

The cross slide fwds/back gives you the equivalent of the X axis (side to side).

To make things a little easier, you use a vertical slide to give you the equivalent of your Y axis (front to back)

Vertical slides were the main thing used a few years ago when mills just weren't available, and they bolted to your cross slide. You can even get ones that rotate on the base, and that co-relates to a swivel base on the milling vice. If you get one wide enough, you can even fit a rotary table to it, so giving you almost everything a mill can do.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Lathe_Milling_Slides.html

You are a little limited by depth of cut, as they are not as rigid as a large mill, but on the other side of the coin, they have been used for many years to make largish locos and traction engines.


John

 

[Rayanth]

I guess I just was concerned that it would be too easy to hit the lathe chuck with the part, i can see how it would work though.

Lathe vs Mill, my only concern right now is the lathe I am looking at (10x22) recommends a 20 amp breaker, the lathe's motor is rated at 13.6 amps. I'm in an 80's quadplex with detached one-car garages, the garages are presumed to all share the same breaker, as they each only have one outlet, plus the single-bulb light fixture. They do not have garage door openers. I do not have access to the breaker box the garages are on. My in-home breaker box has 15 amp breakers labeled 'lights' and everything else is 20's or 30's, but those are heaters, stove, etc. So my concern here is that the garage is on a 15 amp breaker and I will trip it with the lathe and be unable to reset the breaker without a maintenance call that could take several days. (there's a slim chance of getting them to upgrade the breaker on such a call, though)

The Mill recommends a 15 amp breaker, as its motor is rated at 3.2 amps.

I have not completely pushed away the lathe idea. But this electrical issue, combined with the fact that i have no suitable workbench (and the thing is HEAVY, I would have to disassemble it to be able to put it up on a bench)...the bench can be solved within a few weeks, but the electrical is an unknown. Any thoughts?

 

[picclock]

Hi Ryanth

Just my two cents.
Likely chance is that whatever you are making will involve cylinder/piston parts at some stage. IMHO its impossible to make a piston or cylinder on a mill and get the accuracy of size and finish. On one of my projects I am making 130 mm diameter steel discs. I can mill them to nearly the correct size, with a good rotary table, but the surface finish is poor. If you only want to remove a thou or less on the mill the tool will rub rather than cut. In the lathe I can get the diameter to within a fraction of a thou and then polish to remove the very fine turning marks, leaving an excellent finish and the correct size. With a sharp HSS tool half a thou is easy.

Likewise with threading, which is virtually impossible to do on a mill unless you are using taps or dies, and even then its mainly a hand operation. Custom threads are often found on all sorts of parts, and very often large threads are impossible to get taps/dies for (not to mention plastic threads).

I'm very much a newcomer to metalworking but, for me, a lathe is essential. There are some things that cannot be done on a lathe, but there are a lot of things that cannot be done on a mill. I bought my lathe first and the Mill about a year later. Then I purchased a bandsaw which makes everything a lot easier (you quickly grow tired of using a hacksaw on 2x2 steel). Chances are you will end up with all three if you pursue this hobby.

IMO the most important thing on a mill is DRO readouts for X,Y and Z positions. Its very difficult to do accurate work without them, and generally the smaller the work the tighter the tolerances.

2nd the bit above about using HSS tooling and grinding your own. The link shows a simple jig for grinding which is great for all kinds of tools, not just threading.

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ThreadingTools.html

Whichever you choose, good luck.

Best Regards

picclock

 

[Rayanth]

I am in negotiations with the landlord to see about adding a 20amp breaker to the garage if i pay for it. the only drawback I can foresee is that the electrical for that stuff is paid by him, not the tenants, so he might have issue there.

I've also asked the rental managers to keep me on the list for a new place where I might have more options in the garage. Maybe a house, or duplex, or townhome, or.. something.

I am ALSO in the looking for a house outright, but that can be troublesome.

in the meantime... lathe or mill, still on the fence. I go to Grizzly either tomorrow or sunday, to take a poke around. May end up getting nothing, now.

- Ryan

 

[Tin Falcon]

Ok breathe do not worry about the power issues. whoever is writing the grizzly manuals is missing something somewhere. Both machines you are looking at are 1 HP motors. 1HP is approx 746 watts. watts is amps times volts so if your line voltage is in deed 110 you should draw 7 amps in round figures. and they are telling you one of there 1 HP motors only draws 3.2 amps and another draws 13.6. I looked at the manuals as well you are not seeing things. But there is no way a 1 HP motor can only draw 3.2 amps and 13.6 sounds like max overload for a 1HP.
The electricians can chime in here . I am telling you things do not add up. I personally see no need for a 20 amp dedicated line for the lathe. Other than grizzly being over cautious on a breaker rating.
I would bring this up to the techs at grizzly see what they have to say.

Disclamers always follow manufacturers instructions I am not a licensed electrician and am not qualified to give electrical advice.
Tin

 

[fcheslop]

Hi Tin,for the 3.2 amps the line voltage would be 240 as in the U.K sorry dont know what the line voltage is in the USA maybe they are simply quoting the makers spec that may cover both areas
best wishes Frazer

 

[Tin Falcon]

Line voltage in the USA is generally 120 +-
Tin

 

[steamer]

The answer is 16 amps with a 1HP motor at full song....which it isn't most of the time
Your 15 amp breaker may break if you max it out....99% of the time you won't be pulling a 1/3 of that on a 10" lathe
I wouldn't worry about it a bit.
Reference:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elctrical-motor-full-load-current-d_1499.html

PS this is a great reference web site that I use all the time...

Dave

 

[Rayanth]

Dave, (and others) as always thanks for the input. You're turning into a real mentor, for me ;D

I've always been rather afraid of most anything electrical, but my dad was a nuclear electrician in the navy and maintains his electrical certs for his home remodeling business, and was giving me 'advice' to the contrary of what you all say. His suspicion was that 13.6 amps quoted was the no-load, and either the starting amperage, or the loaded amperage was going to spike and basically cause me some trouble.

I guess there's naught to do but give it a shot. It'll be annoying to buy a machine that I can't use if it DOES trip the breaker, but at worst case I can just run a heavy duty extension cord from the kitchen (which are on 20amps) ... or even set up shop on the back patio, not that I'd trust my equipment out there, and a 450 pound lathe is a bit much to move around frequently.

So, tomorrow (today, something... when you work graveyard shift, days have no meaning) I will be taking the trip, and may be coming back with far more equipment than I can truly afford ;D

- Ryan

 

[Tin Falcon]

450 pound lathe is a bit much to move around frequently.

on smooth concrete on a solid bench with good wheels it can be done.
I move weight around daily. sometimes 500lb blocks sometimes 20 50lb blocks on a 150lb cart . 1 person can move over a thousand pounds on wheels what gets tough is inclines and uneven or soft surfaces.
Make sure the footprint center of gravity is stable you do not want to create a tipping hazard.
tin

 

[steamer]

Hey Ryan,

Life is a process, not a specific event....your never really "ready" for anything....but don't let that stop you.

Do you have the best set up for a shop at the moment? Probably not...neither do I.

But start anyway! My first shop was in the wet basement of my parents home....after that it was a spare bedroom in a 3 decker in a bad neighborhood......That was a big step up! :big:

Start before your "ready"...because you really are ready.....it's just that little voice in our heads that gives us the doubt....don't listen to it....go one step at a time and think about what your doing.....you'll move forward.

I hear a model engine running in the future.... ;D

Dave

 

[Rayanth]

Well, there goes that idea. For now. Grizzly isn't open on the weekends... or memorial day. Now what kind of self-respecting establishment....

So I gotta wait until Friday. which means I have a whole week to talk myself out of this.

- Ryan

(If it's not one thing, it's another)

 

[steamer]

....

(If it's not one thing, it's another)

YUP.....don't let it stop you....

 

[Rayanth]

While the link tot he product manual for the 10x22 lathe on grizzly's website is broken, I found a copy of it on UC Berkeley's websites. Hurray for google!

This product manual confirms that the motor draws 13.6 amps under maximum load. I am no longer concerned about the possibility of tripping that breaker

The manual was a wealth of other information for me as well and helped me determine a few things I need to think about. Going to see if I can't get a workbench built beforehand, my dad's well versed in sturdy woodworking, and can be a great help there.

One question I have for the group is a recommendation of a few good books to teach me the basics of lathework? Grizzly has a few books available that I will probably nab, but is there something you all know of that stands for and above the rest?

- Ryan

 

[Tin Falcon]

Here are my favorites



http://www.metalworking.com/tutorials/army-tc-9-524/9-524-index.html


http://www.metalwebnews.org/ftp/machinery-repairman.pdf

http://www.wewilliams.net/docs/How%20to%20Run%20a%20Lathe%20-%2015th%20ed.pdf

Tin

 

[steamer]

Here are my favorites



http://www.metalworking.com/tutorials/army-tc-9-524/9-524-index.html


http://www.metalwebnews.org/ftp/machinery-repairman.pdf

http://www.wewilliams.net/docs/How%20to%20Run%20a%20Lathe%20-%2015th%20ed.pdf

Tin

Ditto!

 

[rebush]

Ryan: You've probably already found this. Youtube videos mrpete222. Lyle has about 240 videos on mills and lathes and model engines and old tractors. And he's interesting to listen to. Roger

 

[Rayanth]

ah yes i had found it through other links but completely forgotten! I really need to make use of that 'bookmarks' feature of my browser. but then i would need to remember that i have bookmarks...

Thanks for the reminder =)

- Ryan

 

[Rayanth]

Will be calling Grizzly tomorrow to make sure they even have the 10x22 in stock before I drive up there Friday. might have to order it in advance and say i'll pick up in store, to save the shipping charge (and wait).

Site says shipping weight is 453 lbs. Manual says machine itself is 330 lbs. That's a lot of accessories ???

Asking my dad, in the meantime, to come up with a workbench design. 4x4 hemlock legs, 3/4" cabinetry grade oak plywood tabletop, varnished a few times, 2x4 fascia for added rigidity at the table, a few 2x4's for extra stiffness across the middle to help keep the plywood from bowing. plywood is strong, but 330 pounds is a lot to ask of it.

Footprint in grizzly manual shows actual machine footprint of 4 feet by 1 foot, but recommends a working footprint of 65.5" wide (47.5 for actual machine, 24 past the tail stock, and an extra 16" or so for the access door swing behind the headstock... yes i know their numbers don't add up) ... So I'm thinking a full 8 foot wide bench, mounting the lathe at the far left end so the door swing is just over open space, and that gives me plenty room for a workbench grinder on the other end. Possibly even room for a small cheap bandsaw. What I'm stuck on is the working *depth* of 30" for the machine. a lot of that is for the access door, so it's obvious the machine needs to be at least the appropriate distance from the wall. Is it preferable to have the handles on the compound be jutting out past the workbench? I'm thinking a 36" deep workbench will be sufficient, Just want to get an estimate of where the mounting bolt holes will be going so we can be sure to manage the stiffening 2x4's appropriately.

Input at this point would be GREATLY appreciated.

- Ryan