South Bend 10K Lathe T-Slot Cross Slide

Home Model Engine Machinist Forum

Help Support Home Model Engine Machinist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

krypto

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2022
Messages
148
Reaction score
103
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Mostly wrapped-up a long term (for me) project by getting a MLA S-4382 T-Slot Cross Slide machined and installed on my South Bend 10K lathe. This was a raw casting kit from Metal Lathe Accessories.

http://mlatoolbox.com/S-4382.html
I had this casting on hand for almost 8 years now and finally got it from the to-do to the to-done list.

crosslide.jpg


Eventually I need to get the top of bronze cross feed nut down a bit and slightly below the top of the slide, but I thought I would use the lathe a bit and see if any other adjustments need to be made. This new cross slide will unlock a lot of new capabilities, specifically a optional rear tool post (for a cut-off tool) and making work holding for line boring (engine cylinders) much easier.

Eventually I'll get a full write-up posted on machining the cross slide, but that will be awhile. Unfortunately, the newly painted parts make the rest of the lathe look a bit neglected!
 
Mostly wrapped-up a long term (for me) project by getting a MLA S-4382 T-Slot Cross Slide machined and installed on my South Bend 10K lathe. This was a raw casting kit from Metal Lathe Accessories.

http://mlatoolbox.com/S-4382.html
I had this casting on hand for almost 8 years now and finally got it from the to-do to the to-done list.

View attachment 149235

Eventually I need to get the top of bronze cross feed nut down a bit and slightly below the top of the slide, but I thought I would use the lathe a bit and see if any other adjustments need to be made. This new cross slide will unlock a lot of new capabilities, specifically a optional rear tool post (for a cut-off tool) and making work holding for line boring (engine cylinders) much easier.

Eventually I'll get a full write-up posted on machining the cross slide, but that will be awhile. Unfortunately, the newly painted parts make the rest of the lathe look a bit neglected!
Looks great

Dave
 
I certainly wish that something like that was available for my 13" South Bend. Other countries are way ahead of US on incorporating a T slot cross slide.
 
Yes, the Myford lathe from the UK has a "T" slot slide....
 
Krypto,
I have the MLA casting and a 10K lathe, but a small mill. What size mill do you have that you used to machine the casting?
Thanks,
Dan
 
Krypto,
I have the MLA casting and a 10K lathe, but a small mill. What size mill do you have that you used to machine the casting?
Thanks,
Dan
The sites drawing shows 4.5x11x1.25, seems a well priced, fun little project. I like old and round (a little like me I guess) but have always cursed the SB cross slide as that is where I always want to set up a mag base.

John 🇨🇦
 
I certainly wish that something like that was available for my 13" South Bend. Other countries are way ahead of US on incorporating a T slot cross slide.
I'm making one. BTW, older lathes, even very large ones, used to have T-slots. I thimpfks they quit doing them simply because it raised the price on the machines.
 
I have a Grizzly G0678.

Paula posted a very good build article on this cross slide at the PM forum years ago.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/machining-a-t-slotted-cross-slide.177054/
She had no problems using a small-ish mill.

In her build, she used a face mill and I did as well for the initial roughing cuts. The only problem with them is that they always leave cosmetic tracks across the work if that work is larger than the face mill. On mine, I finished with a fly cutter.

crosslide2.jpg


This worked fine, but to start and stop the cutter off the work pretty much took all my mill's X travel. She was able to get the top her cross slide finished on a surface grinder which of course will do the best job.
 
I'm making one. BTW, older lathes, even very large ones, used to have T-slots. I thimpfks they quit doing them simply because it raised the price on the machines.
I think since even the "money-is-no-object" toolroom lathes from Monarch or Hardinge didn't bother with a combination compound/t-slot cross slide it wasn't a price issue, but factories in the states just bought an additional 2nd ops lathe or other machine for the t-slot work. You could order a t-slot cross slides from South Bend, but you couldn't directly mount the compound on them. Of the YouTube guys, I think Keith Fenner's lathe is about the only one I've seen with a T-Slot cross slide, and yes he did videos of line boring with it.
 
The sites drawing shows 4.5x11x1.25, seems a well priced, fun little project. I like old and round (a little like me I guess) but have always cursed the SB cross slide as that is where I always want to set up a mag base.

Don't forget, the flat surface of this new cross slide is an excellent place to put the cutting oil cup! ;)
 
The most likely reason the more industrial level lathes may have decided not to incorporate a tee slotted cross slide is it weakens the cross slide and is therefor less rigid. At the prices higher end tool room lathes were built to sell for, the minor extra cost would have had little effect on there design choices as far as adding or not adding a tee slotted cross slide. Added depth and heavier castings could be done as compensation, but you then reduce the available space for the compound assembly. And the overall swing above the top face of the cross slide is also reduced. G.H. Thomas's writings and his points about rear tool posts, line boring etc directly influenced my choices when I was looking for my last lathe. Yes there's some unavoidable downsides to having those tee slots, to me the benefits and increased versatility in a home shop do outweigh those deficits.

Continuously cast Dura-Bar can be obtained in about any size needed to add a new tee slotted cross slide to about any lathe size most of us would have. Having a mill large enough to replicate your own is just one of the issues. More important would be a good understanding of machine tool alignments and at least decent hand scraping skills for the final alignments and load bearing surfaces. There's two different methods used for head stock verses cross slide alignments I know of. It seems more common on European lathes to have the head stock pointing up and towards the operator about .001" over 12". On most North American lathes, it seems more common to tilt the head stock up by that amount, but that same .001" / 12" cross slides inward facing bias is ground and/or scraped into the cross slide assembly. Despite what some may assume, even the best new tool room lathes aren't aligned to face components dead flat, and for good logical reasons. That misalignment should have been put into the fixed cross slide dovetail, but if your adding a new tee slotted cross slide to a seriously worn lathe, then correcting that wear would be something most would try to do. So understanding that slight misalignment is required is also fairly important.
 
The most likely reason the more industrial level lathes may have decided not to incorporate a tee slotted cross slide is it weakens the cross slide and is therefor less rigid. At the prices higher end tool room lathes were built to sell for, the minor extra cost would have had little effect on there design choices as far as adding or not adding a tee slotted cross slide. Added depth and heavier castings could be done as compensation, but you then reduce the available space for the compound assembly. And the overall swing above the top face of the cross slide is also reduced. G.H. Thomas's writings and his points about rear tool posts, line boring etc directly influenced my choices when I was looking for my last lathe. Yes there's some unavoidable downsides to having those tee slots, to me the benefits and increased versatility in a home shop do outweigh those deficits.

Continuously cast Dura-Bar can be obtained in about any size needed to add a new tee slotted cross slide to about any lathe size most of us would have. Having a mill large enough to replicate your own is just one of the issues. More important would be a good understanding of machine tool alignments and at least decent hand scraping skills for the final alignments and load bearing surfaces. There's two different methods used for head stock verses cross slide alignments I know of. It seems more common on European lathes to have the head stock pointing up and towards the operator about .001" over 12". On most North American lathes, it seems more common to tilt the head stock up by that amount, but that same .001" / 12" cross slides inward facing bias is ground and/or scraped into the cross slide assembly. Despite what some may assume, even the best new tool room lathes aren't aligned to face components dead flat, and for good logical reasons. That misalignment should have been put into the fixed cross slide dovetail, but if your adding a new tee slotted cross slide to a seriously worn lathe, then correcting that wear would be something most would try to do. So understanding that slight misalignment is required is also fairly important.
Would you expand on the necessity and/or advantage of misalignment. Thanks.
 
I'm aware of the lathe alignments you mention, but I don't agree that the cross slide machined above has much to do with any of this. The lathe saddle has the dovetails that provide the alignment with the bed and spindle and the cross slide is just along for the ride using the alignment of those dovetails. Sure, if you screw-up machining the cross slide enough it will bind in the dovetails but it's not as critical a part as the saddle.

crosslide3.jpg


This isn't a build post so I wasn't going to get into this, but the main impetus for machining this cross slide was the surprise purchase of a used saddle for this lathe.

This lathe was new in 1975 and compared to the production run of South Bend lathes it's relative new as that's getting towards the end of the domestic run. It also has a hard bed which was rare for small SB lathes. Like any equipment purchase there are compromises, and this lathe had the typical hour-glass wear in the saddle dovetails. This was apparent when you moved the cross slide away from the operator as it would start to tighten-up at the extreme end of travel. The cross slide gib adjustment was a compromise between both ends of the dovetails. Not the end of the world, but it was an annoyance.

I wasn't in the market for one, but seen this newer saddle while searching for something else. Buying used upgrade parts from a scrapped lathe is a fools bet, but the newer saddle looked better than anything else I've seen and the price was right. When I received the saddle in the post, the bet payed off as it has a good deal less wear than the one being used, specifically in the dovetails. There was also alot of scraping left. Notice I wasn't that worried about .0005" of alignments, I was just looking for a straight dovetail. By the way, the new cross slide doesn't have this problem at the travel extremes and works great.

Since I also had a compound I bought years ago with less chuck vs compound battle marks now was a perfect time to get the saddle, cross slide and compound fitted together properly. I haven't had much time to use the lathe yet, but everything seems to be working fine.

Just for the record, you really don't need a super-accurate lathe or mill to build these model engines. Yes, good stuff is always nicer but if you can just get close you can fit the parts as necessary using various techniques. Certainly those builders from the 50's and 60's didn't have the best equipment available and very few even had a mill and yet somehow they managed to produce fine models.

I've been to a few shows and nobody displaying the models is a exactly a spring chicken. You only have a set amount of time left so you either spend your time worrying about a tenth here or there or actually make projects. The Grim Reaper will be tapping you on the shoulder sooner than you think.
 
Yes I can do that Bob, but it might be a bit more than you were asking about since its not exactly as simple as it might seem. I'm also trying hard not to throw Krypto's thread off topic. And I didn't add what I did as any criticism towards yourself Krypto, I think you did a very fine job. I was simply mentioning it as additional information for those that might not know such as Bob asking about it.

So fwiw, properly aligned lathes are designed so they face with a slight inward bias, or concave. It's a minimal amount, but still very important. And its quite easy to see on a finely finished faced surface. If a light is shining on that faced surface from the right direction, you'll see two tapered or triangular shapes of reflected light at 180 degrees to each other running from the parts center line and out to it's O.D. getting wider the more it progresses towards that O.D. Ok, so why is that type of alignment desirable or required? That way when two faced parts are joined together they sit flat and don't rock. The lathe will also wear in use towards facing flat and not immediately towards facing convex or where those parts would rock against each other. On the better lathes, the head stocks are aligned to point very slightly upwards as compensation for work piece weight. Depending on the manufacturer, it may also point towards the operator for that concave facing, or its done on the fixed dovetail of the cross slide.

The tail stocks on good lathes are also set up similar, it will or should point uphill again as compensation for work piece weight, and towards the operator as a slight compensation of those cutting forces. As I said, those minor misalignment's aren't very much, roughly a couple of 10ths over a 12" test length. With decent metrology equipment, it can be measured and verified well enough.

Proper machine alignments and some of there subtle misalignment's are far from being as intuitive as some seem to think. You have to visualize at the macro level to understand the concepts of and exactly the reasons behind why its being done in that way. For example, lathe leveling or tramming a mill head is just about the last step that would be done before verifying quite a few other items first on any new or used machine and before those would be done. Yet very seldom are those additional checks mentioned on these forums. As another example, how many posts even mention checking a mill table for just how square the X,Y axis travels are to each other? Most seem to just assume those would already be dead square to each other. From my limited checks on so far 3 different sized, brands, country of origin and quite a large difference in costs, I can assure you that most certainly aren't. And if you don't check, you have no idea what any machine is even capable of as far as accurate coordinate machining. Or hope to make any compensation if you don't know how much might be required. Fortunately most of the necessary checks only need to be done once and then a long time later just to access the amount of wear that's taken place. And after those initial checks, then the usual leveling or mill head tramming is fine. They also don't take that long to do once you've done so a few times.

And yes I well understand that for most parts, a very high degree of accuracy isn't that important in most home shops. Until it is, to use a model engine as another example, the overall part fit and/or surface finish is more important than hitting any exact size. But because of the scale effect, model engines develop little horse power. Exterior combustion models run on air even less just to rotate themselves. So the overall engines parts and the exact squareness they have to each other is in fact pretty important. The same is true for individual part location. Any binding in model engines of any type will affect how they operate and perform. So the general point on these forums about high accuracy isn't a requirement is in reality only partially true. And again your certainly correct Krypto, I have a collection of Model Engineer magazines dating back to 1998, many engines were certainly built using not much more than a steel scale for reference, inside and outside calipers that on there own can't display any measurement at all. Experience and hand fitting parts to each other got the job done.

In the 1930's Georg Schlesinger literally wrote the initial book about machine tool alignments. Multiple editions have be updated and printed since. In one way or another, all the better machine tool manufacturer's still base there machine tool certificate of accuracy either directly or slightly modified for the machine type on his work. A PDF of his book can be found here. Testing Machine Tools (Dr.Schlesinger) - Free Download PDF Just remember, the minimum and maximum numbers he lists would be for high quality industrial machines. But they at least give you the proper test methods and some ball park numbers for any that might want to double check or access what they already have. Schlesinger's test methods aren't the only way any of these tests can be done, there's also multiple other ways various others have come up with. Some maybe better or worse depending on your perspective.

For a very good visualization of possible inaccuracy in any slide equipped machine tool, you need to properly understand the industry concept of the possible multiple axii of where and how that inaccuracy can be present. There's 6 possible degrees of inaccuracy that may be present in just one axis or even various amounts and combinations in multiple axii on any one single slide. The hard copy book is quite expensive from Moore Tools, but a PDF copy is here. https://ia800104.us.archive.org/20/...curacy/Foundations_of_Mechanical_Accuracy.pdf Yes Moore delves into the millionths of an inch accuracy levels that are multiple times outside what most with a hobby level shop would ever need. But the information and concepts within it are just as useful for us as basic information. Plus you can't beat free. :)

I don't know of any online copy of the Connelly book Machine Tool Reconditioning, and it's again fairly expensive. (roughly $100) Machine Tool Reconditioning for Machine Tools by Machine Tool Publications From my perspective, I think a great deal of it was taken from Schlesinger's book and expanded upon. But it's something that also helps to properly visualize the importance of the 3 dimensional alignments that are non optional. Indirectly all three sources of information I've given form the basics of 3 dimensional coordinate machining that are still in use today for both manual and cnc.

There is one I think very good Youtube channel that gets into machine tool alignments, rebuilding, improvements and modifications for any that might be interested. https://www.youtube.com/@jansverrehaugjord9934 Watching how its done also helps to understand the written information a whole lot better.
 
Wow! I did not know anything about machine alignment, except the distortion of small hobby machines that occurs when the cut overloads the machine's stiffness. Now I feel I should read more.... (I do need to reinforce/stiffen the mounting frame for my lathe, as it has innadequate support).
I need to re adjust my lathe's mounting, as the tailstock is no longer on-centre. I believe due to distortion from an innadequate support frame.
K2
 
...Yes I can do that Bob, but it might be a bit more than you were asking about since its not exactly as simple as it might seem. I'm also trying hard not to throw Krypto's thread off topic...

Too late for that now! :p

Here's a copy of South Bend's internal QC checklist that was performed on each lathe before it went out the door. Some of the things Pete mentioned are checked.

SB_testcard.jpg


The ANSI B 5.16-1962 standard is referenced in the checklist. I would like to view the entire document but unfortunately no greater racket exists than the published standards business. Even though I can access quite a bit of the test standards through work, I can't view the decades out-of-date B 5.16 without paying.

For example, lathe leveling or tramming a mill head is just about the last step that would be done before verifying quite a few other items first on any new or used machine and before those would be done. Yet very seldom are those additional checks mentioned on these forums. As another example, how many posts even mention checking a mill table for just how square the X,Y axis travels are to each other? Most seem to just assume those would already be dead square to each other. From my limited checks on so far 3 different sized, brands, country of origin and quite a large difference in costs, I can assure you that most certainly aren't.

I and I'm sure others would be interested in seeing, in a new topic, how you check your mill table for squareness of the X & Y travels in the home shop environment using the metrology tools of a home shop machinist. Pointing to procedures in a book is one thing, but I'm a simple-minded person a prefer to see such things done in pictures with a bit of text. If you do find a large discrepancy, how would you go about fixing it?
 
That South Bend certificate is directly based on the Schlesinger book. In that PDF you'll find the general minimum and maximums. If my memory isn't faulty I believe he gives numbers for both standard and tool room designated industrial level lathes. And as I said, some of our lesser machines aren't up to those standards, but the numbers do give indications of where in the ball park your test numbers should be. Anything well outside those would be where the individual lathe owner would have to make decisions on what can or can't be lived with.

Some of these checks are in reality just basic geometry. I'll fully admit it took me quite a bit more time to figure out how some of it can be done with average shop metrology equipment than I'd like to admit though. Ok I'll start a new thread.
 
Last edited:
Yes I can do that Bob, but it might be a bit more than you were asking about since its not exactly as simple as it might seem. I'm also trying hard not to throw Krypto's thread off topic. And I didn't add what I did as any criticism towards yourself Krypto, I think you did a very fine job. I was simply mentioning it as additional information for those that might not know such as Bob asking about it.

So fwiw, properly aligned lathes are designed so they face with a slight inward bias, or concave. It's a minimal amount, but still very important. And its quite easy to see on a finely finished faced surface. If a light is shining on that faced surface from the right direction, you'll see two tapered or triangular shapes of reflected light at 180 degrees to each other running from the parts center line and out to it's O.D. getting wider the more it progresses towards that O.D. Ok, so why is that type of alignment desirable or required? That way when two faced parts are joined together they sit flat and don't rock. The lathe will also wear in use towards facing flat and not immediately towards facing convex or where those parts would rock against each other. On the better lathes, the head stocks are aligned to point very slightly upwards as compensation for work piece weight. Depending on the manufacturer, it may also point towards the operator for that concave facing, or its done on the fixed dovetail of the cross slide.

The tail stocks on good lathes are also set up similar, it will or should point uphill again as compensation for work piece weight, and towards the operator as a slight compensation of those cutting forces. As I said, those minor misalignment's aren't very much, roughly a couple of 10ths over a 12" test length. With decent metrology equipment, it can be measured and verified well enough.

Proper machine alignments and some of there subtle misalignment's are far from being as intuitive as some seem to think. You have to visualize at the macro level to understand the concepts of and exactly the reasons behind why its being done in that way. For example, lathe leveling or tramming a mill head is just about the last step that would be done before verifying quite a few other items first on any new or used machine and before those would be done. Yet very seldom are those additional checks mentioned on these forums. As another example, how many posts even mention checking a mill table for just how square the X,Y axis travels are to each other? Most seem to just assume those would already be dead square to each other. From my limited checks on so far 3 different sized, brands, country of origin and quite a large difference in costs, I can assure you that most certainly aren't. And if you don't check, you have no idea what any machine is even capable of as far as accurate coordinate machining. Or hope to make any compensation if you don't know how much might be required. Fortunately most of the necessary checks only need to be done once and then a long time later just to access the amount of wear that's taken place. And after those initial checks, then the usual leveling or mill head tramming is fine. They also don't take that long to do once you've done so a few times.

And yes I well understand that for most parts, a very high degree of accuracy isn't that important in most home shops. Until it is, to use a model engine as another example, the overall part fit and/or surface finish is more important than hitting any exact size. But because of the scale effect, model engines develop little horse power. Exterior combustion models run on air even less just to rotate themselves. So the overall engines parts and the exact squareness they have to each other is in fact pretty important. The same is true for individual part location. Any binding in model engines of any type will affect how they operate and perform. So the general point on these forums about high accuracy isn't a requirement is in reality only partially true. And again your certainly correct Krypto, I have a collection of Model Engineer magazines dating back to 1998, many engines were certainly built using not much more than a steel scale for reference, inside and outside calipers that on there own can't display any measurement at all. Experience and hand fitting parts to each other got the job done.

In the 1930's Georg Schlesinger literally wrote the initial book about machine tool alignments. Multiple editions have be updated and printed since. In one way or another, all the better machine tool manufacturer's still base there machine tool certificate of accuracy either directly or slightly modified for the machine type on his work. A PDF of his book can be found here. Testing Machine Tools (Dr.Schlesinger) - Free Download PDF Just remember, the minimum and maximum numbers he lists would be for high quality industrial machines. But they at least give you the proper test methods and some ball park numbers for any that might want to double check or access what they already have. Schlesinger's test methods aren't the only way any of these tests can be done, there's also multiple other ways various others have come up with. Some maybe better or worse depending on your perspective.

For a very good visualization of possible inaccuracy in any slide equipped machine tool, you need to properly understand the industry concept of the possible multiple axii of where and how that inaccuracy can be present. There's 6 possible degrees of inaccuracy that may be present in just one axis or even various amounts and combinations in multiple axii on any one single slide. The hard copy book is quite expensive from Moore Tools, but a PDF copy is here. https://ia800104.us.archive.org/20/...curacy/Foundations_of_Mechanical_Accuracy.pdf Yes Moore delves into the millionths of an inch accuracy levels that are multiple times outside what most with a hobby level shop would ever need. But the information and concepts within it are just as useful for us as basic information. Plus you can't beat free. :)

I don't know of any online copy of the Connelly book Machine Tool Reconditioning, and it's again fairly expensive. (roughly $100) Machine Tool Reconditioning for Machine Tools by Machine Tool Publications From my perspective, I think a great deal of it was taken from Schlesinger's book and expanded upon. But it's something that also helps to properly visualize the importance of the 3 dimensional alignments that are non optional. Indirectly all three sources of information I've given form the basics of 3 dimensional coordinate machining that are still in use today for both manual and cnc.

There is one I think very good Youtube channel that gets into machine tool alignments, rebuilding, improvements and modifications for any that might be interested. https://www.youtube.com/@jansverrehaugjord9934 Watching how its done also helps to understand the written information a whole lot better.
Pete,
That's a great example of "things aren't always as simple as they appear". You've given us a great deal of insight and suggestions for further reading regarding this subject. Looks like I have some more learning to add to my to-do list. Thank you for taking the time to explain things.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top