Putting some grip (stippling) on an aluminium drive pulley.

[BaronJ]

No, I reckon that's you.

No ! I see someone that is so full of himself that he is blind to the consequences !

 

[BaronJ]

But if it wasn't the tool that he used that you have an issue with then was it simply the practice of hand-holding tool on a metal lathe? There are plenty of videos of graving and metal spinning where they do just that and no-one suggests these videos are not appropriate. What exactly is the issue here?

You wouldn't use a graver without a tool rest !

The issue is not what was done but how it was done and published in a video !

Like others I have seen some horrific injuries caused by failing to recognise the dangers involved.

Using a file on an object in a rotating chuck is often done, but then there are plenty of warnings and instruction about how it should be done.

People cut corners every day and get away with it, then there is that one time...

 

[goldstar31]

Do you mean a spinning lathe or a spinning lathe?
Gave me quite a turn

 

[terryd]

Mate, you're going over the top. Its a 1" dremel saw blade held by its arbor with a pair of multigrips.

Why do you have a problem using a safer tool? A 1" dremel blade coming loose or fracturing in a situation it is not designed for would make a nice mess of an unprotected eye. And before you say that wouln't happen, that's what they all said before the accident. As for filing on the lathe, the file is controlled by both hands making it stable. The file does not spin in a makeshift holder.

The cavalier attitude that some have here has reminded me of an incident in a School near me. a student feigned tapping a mate opposite on the head with a file, not meaning to hit. But the file came out of the handle spun and embedded the tang between the vertebrae in the back ot the neck of another. He wsa paralysed but it wasn't a problem for him as he died a week later. So never say "it won't happen", Murphy's law proves otherwise.

TerryD

 

[BaronJ]

Hi Terry,

I saw a guy loose most of the fingers on one hand whilst changing a planer blade and pulling the drive belt with the other. Not very pretty at all ! the blood stains were there for quite a while.

I once saw a lathe operator drop a spanner whilst the lathe was running. It landed on the rotating chuck and luckily it missed his face and hit his shoulder.

The fact that hand held vise grips were used is the danger ! A slip or a moment of inattention and they could easily be caught by the rotating chuck ! The correct thing would have been to secure the tool in the tool holder. That is what its there for.

Unfortunately Jim can't see that ! I shall no longer bother visiting his web site.

 

[goldstar31]

In the Good Old Days, there was Model Engineer magazine which before publication had the contributions usually from experts, edited again- by an expert whose work is still revered tpoday. None other than 'Ned' Westbury.
What was published---- was worth publishing.
I once( only once) had an articles published. Today I note that I have 917 'likes' recorded in my favour.
It's an odious comparison of standards of then and now.

John's comments today brought my thoughts into perspective. A few others seem to find agreement.

 

[Cogsy]

The fact that hand held vise grips were used is the danger ! A slip or a moment of inattention and they could easily be caught by the rotating chuck ! The correct thing would have been to secure the tool in the tool holder. That is what its there for.

Joe Pie has a video on filing in the lathe and has some very interesting demos of the file touching the chuck and (usually) being ejected rather than grabbed. Personally, even though I love most of Joe's videos, I don't like his practice of filing with his left arm over the rotating chuck. In my opinion this is very dangerous and I would think most would agree, however he doesn't seem to cop a lot of flak over it and we continue to watch, and learn, from his videos.

As an aside, some of the scariest moments I've had on the lathe have come from sanding rather than 'normal' lathe work. Getting a rap on the knuckles from a spinning chuck is never a nice feeling. It seems to me that the simpler the action we are performing the less attention we give it and the more dangerous it becomes. I know I'm hyper-vigilant when I'm filing under power and I've never had a close call because of that.

 

[JimDobson]

Hi Terry,

I saw a guy loose most of the fingers on one hand whilst changing a planer blade and pulling the drive belt with the other. Not very pretty at all ! the blood stains were there for quite a while.

I once saw a lathe operator drop a spanner whilst the lathe was running. It landed on the rotating chuck and luckily it missed his face and hit his shoulder.

The fact that hand held vise grips were used is the danger ! A slip or a moment of inattention and they could easily be caught by the rotating chuck ! The correct thing would have been to secure the tool in the tool holder. That is what its there for.

Unfortunately Jim can't see that ! I shall no longer bother visiting his web site.

Its 'lose' not 'loose'.

Thanks for not visiting my website anymore, much appreciated (I didn't even know that I had a 'website').

 

[JimDobson]

The cavalier attitude that some have here ........

TerryD

Nothing to do with being cavalier, its being a practical person in the home workshop.

 

[JimDobson]

I'm also struggling to see what people are getting so worked up about here.

Its actually starting to become quite interesting. I'm looking forward to the next round of bizarre anecdotes cited.

 

[terryd]

What I found really interesting was the unusual, in the modern day, of the use of the term 'stippling' which is generally reserved to describe a painting technique these days ,at least in the UK. I would see it as knurling using the saw blade as a very narrow knurl.

What you get up to in your own workshop is your own business, fine, endanger yourself as often as you like Most of us 'moaning' is due to the fact that you advertise such a cavalier - yes cavalier despite your protestations - approach to such work which may influence the same approach to newcomers who have little experience in using machine tools, when there are much safer methods to achieve a similar end.

TerryD

 

[goldstar31]

Of course, TerryD is right.
Might I humbly suggest that this post is not locked but removed completely? .

 

[Steamchick]

Jim, Having worked in industry (and as a Safety officer on a construction site) I appreciate that there are competent people and the majority - just less competent and with less common sense. Teaching Grandma not to pick-up the kettle without a cloth is a waste of breath, but teaching the "14 year old lad in a hurry" is much more worthwhile... I agree with the "safety minded" comments that are expressed here, as many who use these threads are less competent - which is why they use the threads. We (well maybe I count among the "less competent"?) who post advice and instructions should always caution on the side of safety. If we have any consideration for others it should naturally come first. I was taught (by toolmakers - from 12 years old) to "Learn and listen" to discover the "correct way"... Any "short-cuts" should only be discovered when the "correct way" is understood, and the risks and consequences of the short-cuts are adequately explained. I used to get "a clip" if I followed "Johnny's short-cut" before I had adequately learned the "correct way". So (to all) - on behalf of all of us learning new techniques and methods - PLEASE teach us the "correct and safe way" first.
Incidentally, I was taught graving when I was 7... using a rest. (I did some yesterday to finish a mandrel on its final location for mounting a diamond wheel).
Also, for marking the surface of the aluminium wheel as requested originally.... I would use a Knurling tool very lightly on the aluminium surface. It did the trick on a dual disc forward-reverse mechanism on my boat..
Thanks to all contributors.
Ken

 

[terryd]

Hi Jim,

Not so much 'bizarre anecdotes' as actual descriptions of real life accidents - again describing them as 'bizarre' demonstrates another example of a cavalier attitude, they certainly aren't bizarre for the poor unfortunates involved. Most of the stories point to the fact that the unexpected does happen. Any bizarre technique such as yours is safe, until it's not.

Her's one from todays news for you to have a good laugh at:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-54715327
TerryD

P.S. Following the 'bizarre incident' with the file that I described and you so lightly dismiss as an anecdote. All of the colleges and schools in the authority adjacent to theone where the accident happened and where I lectured at the time were quickly equipped with expensive screw on Swiss file handles to prevent a possible re-occurance of the incident as the compensation paid out by our neighbouring Authority was huge. Howevr in my home workshop I use traditional wooden ones.

TD

 

[willray]

I'm also struggling to see what people are getting so worked up about here. The 'cutter' was being held in a pair of multigrips (which I often trust enough to do various jobs involving molten metal work and have a far more reliable handle than a wooden leatherworking tool) so hands were nowhere near the spinning chuck, which is the biggest hazard in my opinion. Plus, the 'cutter' itself was a very low weight blade and not spinning at terribly high RPM, so it had little rotational momentum. If he had let the thing go while in contact with the part, it would (in my estimation) been kicked away from the workpiece and very quickly stopped rotating. If it had somehow contacted skin before it stopped it contained so little energy that it was unlikely to do any damage. As long as he was wearing eye protection I don't think there was much risk.

I'm sorry, but did you actually watch the video, or are you just arguing with the "safety nazis" just because you think they're safety nazis?

The cutter was being held in a pair of (modern-day irwin's version of) channel-lock pliers, which rely on grip strength to hold the part. The forces applied were out of the plane of the jaws, and in the weakest possible direction for channel-lock type pliers - a direction in which I've experienced plenty of things pivot, even when I thought I was being a gorilla on the handles.

His knuckle is within 1/2 inch of the rotating dremel saw, while the saw is being driven by the work.

It's blatantly obvious - because it happens in the video - that it's easy to slip off the end of the work, and because of the force "pushing into" the work to get the saw to act as a knurl, there's a lot of surprise excess motion when that slip happens. Plenty of motion to drive his finger into the saw, or the saw into the work at an unexpected angle, etc. The only reason this wasn't a video about a gashed knuckle, is because of luck.

At the same time his fingers are within 1/2 inch of the driven saw blade, they're less than an inch from the chuck jaws.

Using the dremel saw blade as a knurl is a clever expedient, exactly the kind of thing for which this site exists.

Defending the way that it was used, and pretending that it's acceptable to promote that approach as a reasonable and safe way to use the tool, is patently insane.

 

[IanN]

Joe Pie has a video on filing in the lathe and has some very interesting demos of the file touching the chuck and (usually) being ejected rather than graven though I love most of Joe's videos, I don't like his practice of filing with his left arm over the rotating chuck.

Hi,

The problem with filing in the lathe is the risk of the tip of the file hitting a chuck jaw and being forced in to the soft squidgy human holding the file. As long as you hold the work in a collet (never a chuck with jaws) and use a "lathe file" rather than the usual mill file, and you never lean your left arm over the rotating parts, there is only a moderately high risk of injury

But then Joe Pie also “blows down” his machines using an air line - one of the stupidest things you can do in a workshop - so always treat his videos with caution

All the best
Ian

 

[dnalot]

Nature has a way of winnowing out the weaker amongst us. Best to just leave this alone and let nature take its course, strengthening future generations. And it frees up some good used tools. I got a hell of a deal on a table saw that some dude lost some fingers with.

Mark T

 

[terryd]

Hi Ian,

I completely agree with your comment on using compressed air to blow down a machine. Two main reasons, it can force small swarf particles into unseen places on the machine where they should never get and secondly it does a great job of embedding said swarf into the surface of the eyeball. I use cheap 1" paintbrushes to clean down which takes a couple of minutes longer but is safer.

At the risk of being 'anecdotal', on our induction week as engineering technical apprentices in the very early 1960s we had a series of safety films. One of which was film of an eye operation to remove a piece of swarf which had been forced into the interior of the eye with compressed air clean down - a fairly common accident then. After nearly 60 years I can still visualise the close up of the eye with the lid clamps forcing it open and the scalpel cutting into the surface of the eyeball. I wasn't sick but several others were.

TerryD

 

[IanN]

:
Defending the way that [the Dremel saw blade] was used, and pretending that it's acceptable to promote that approach as a reasonable and safe way to use the tool, is patently insane.

Hi,

The one thing that amazes me about the exchange on this topic is the total lack of acknowledgement from some posters that there is an issue.

In most forums, if you point out a potential issue the original poster usually responds with some degree of civil comment along the lines of “Thanks for pointing that out - I had not thought of that aspect and you have raised a valid point ......”. Instead we have an immediate confrontation “I right, you are an ***** for even thinking of questioning my opinion.....”

In this thread someone made a comment along the lines of ‘surely you don’t wear eye protection when using a hacksaw!’ There is absolutely no point in trying to explain to someone with that mind set that a hacksaw blade has a cutting edge made of very hard and brittle material - if (when) the blade snaps, tiny fragments spray in all directions....

There will always be some people who cannot accept any view other than their own and there is little point in trying to inform them
All the best,
Ian

 

[fcheslop]

The thread has far more attention than it deserves or would have received if the job had been done in a safe manner
Horses and water comes to mind
Keep well n safe