Prusa XL 3D Printer

[timo_gross]

Another way to look at it is that I would prefer to focus my limited available time on making 3D models for engines, and printing the patterns for those engines, instead of building 3D printers.

Its a matter of focus and priority.

It is basically whatever you have fun doing, but my end-game focus is to make engine castings and build engines, and let someone else sort out the 3D printer stuff.

• To built a printer to practice debugging, experiment with spareparts, soldering wires to each other, program microcontrollers, try out different sofwares etc. is one hobby.
• To print with different (colour) materials, designs downloaded from the internet, is another hobby.
• To buy a printer to print parts for another hobby, or for work is an entirely different thing again. And there maybe overlapping interests.

Factoring in time (pay yourself like a real auto mechanic), tools, material etc. I doubt you can built a large working printer for under 10 000 USD.
Building a "state of the art printer diy" is becoming again more a hobby in itself, because with all the new introduced sensors and firmware settings you need to spent time in order to learn what you are doing.
It was difficult to get the machines running at all in the beginnings, when people made their own heaters with wire and capton tape.
(Google "Mendel 3d printer" to get an Idea what I am talking about)
Now it becomes complicated again if you want to incorporate a lot of the latest features into your DIY machine, you cannot do it without investing time and understanding a little what you are doing.

 

[David Shealey]

The Prusa XL's are starting to ship.

From the Prusa website, it says they received thousands of orders in the first few minutes of pre-sale.



The use of multi-materials is pretty interesting.
I don't fully understand how they mix soluble and insoluble material in the same print, but that would be an very useful feature for sure.

Lets hope it lives up to the hype, but I am guessing it will become the standard of the industry, judging from the effort Prusa is putting into this machine.



https://blog.prusa3d.com/original-prusa-xl-now-shipping_75721/

I have have the MMU2 on my Prusa Mk 3, and have printed quite a few things with multiple materials. mostly just different colors, but a few using PLA for support material on PETG prints. That makes removing supports amazingly easy since the two materials will not stick together to any degree. The opposite works also. If I could afford it I would love a multi head XL! That would make multi material far easier and faster, no purge blocks to clear the single head on material change, and no waiting on temp changes if different materials used.

 

[stanstocker]

• To built a printer to practice debugging, experiment with spareparts, soldering wires to each other, program microcontrollers, try out different sofwares etc. is one hobby.
• To print with different (colour) materials, designs downloaded from the internet, is another hobby.
• To buy a printer to print parts for another hobby, or for work is an entirely different thing again. And there maybe overlapping interests.

Factoring in time (pay yourself like a real auto mechanic), tools, material etc. I doubt you can built a large working printer for under 10 000 USD.
Building a "state of the art printer diy" is becoming again more a hobby in itself, because with all the new introduced sensors and firmware settings you need to spent time in order to learn what you are doing.
It was difficult to get the machines running at all in the beginnings, when people made their own heaters with wire and capton tape.
(Google "Mendel 3d printer" to get an Idea what I am talking about)
Now it becomes complicated again if you want to incorporate a lot of the latest features into your DIY machine, you cannot do it without investing time and understanding a little what you are doing.

Hi Timo,

If paid what auto mechanics actually are PAID, rather than what shops charge per hour to cover overhead etc, a Voron with dual print heads would likely come out a bit more expensive than a PrusaXL, but it would still be under $4000 USD. It would also be a total pain in the rear end to build in many cases, and require all sorts of tweaking. If the Voron build is similar to the RatRig build, you will have to figure out several "Now go make neat stuff happen with electronics and do some software setups based on some other pages we don't publish that almost match what we sent you, then come back to this page to continue assembly" sorts of deals. I've been building stuff from kits and scratch from the 1970's and I can say the VMinion was the most irritating gadget build from assembly instructions and all parts included kit ever completed. Good little printer, but in this case the journey sucked, but at least the destination ended up being OK .
Stan

 

[stanstocker]

I bought a Prusa I3Mk3s+ a couple of years ago- I looked around at a lot of printers prior to buying and dismissed most of them as basically toys. I wanted a printer to actually print things I wanted to use, not a printer to play with, rebuild, or modify to get consistent useable prints. The Prusa has not disappointed me, results are consistently excellent.

I've had the XL pre-ordered almost since day one- can't wait to get it as I do a fair bit of multi-colour printing and am looking forward to the day I don't have to stand in front of the printer waiting to change filament multiple times.

The biggest problem I have with waiting for the XL is looking at that money I have patiently saved up, just sitting there in the bank, and thinking of all the other great toys I can buy with it RIGHT NOW!!

Not a thing wrong with wanting a printer that just works. I know several folks who bought Prusa printers for just that reason, and they have all been satisfied. I don't have ANY printer that has not required some level of tweaking or outright error correction beyond what came out of the box from the manufacturer, although to be fair my Ender3 S1 Pro came very close to be turnkey. I hope the XL turns out to be a great printer, Prusa sure has been working the early builds hard to get teething issues found and solved prior to production. Even though I built my first delta from parts in 2015 and I enjoy playing with printers and other tools, the day to day weirdness of some printers is very irksome, particularly with Z offsets and repeatable day to day first layer thickness and quality. Darn near made me buy a Bambu P1P rather than a RatRig VMinion kit the last time I wanted a new printer!
Cheers,
Stan

 

[KellisRJ]

IMHO and experience, you have to spend a fair amount of coin to buy a true turn-key printer. I didn't want another project, but my significant other really wanted a printer . . . The following experiences are an over view of my life from Christmas day 2022 to the 2nd week of March 2023 working on absolutely nothing else. Finished just in time to pack up for a week long visit by 6 relatives.

I didn't try to keep track of how many rabbit warrens I had to go down to learn what was needed to make a sub-assembly change. But it's the same as needing to learn how build a tool, to build a second tool, to make a part. But it was painful to say the least. At times I wanted to pitch them in the street just for the momentary satisfaction of seeing them smashed to pieces.

Purchased an Ender 6. Then trying to install a "bed leveling" kit, better described as a semi-auto nozzle off-set kit, resulted in a bricked screen. End result was an after-maket screen and after-maket bed leveling kit. And "Oh by the way" need to use 3 programs to teek firm-ware and use a Linux machine after tiring of trying to get Windows 10 Security to allow me to use a COM port. And where the assembly instructions "kinda" skipped over the need to reverse the Z settings for the Ender 6 bed moving rather than the more typical gantry Z. And a cold end jam every time the nozzle did a very good imitation of a wood pecker trying to figure it out.

On advice of an aquantce, purchased an assembled Prusa Mk3S+ just so she could print "something". The filament gear came loose on the 3rd print, took almost two weeks to figure that one out after trying to chase down cold end filament jams. Yes, I got really intimate with hot/cold end disassembly procedures. That was after doing a partial disassembly to put it in their enclosure trying to make sense of instructions that assumed understanding based on assembly from a kit. Took comments provided by the user community to get through that bit of fun.

I've come to think of them like owning an early turn of the 20th century car. Endless opportunities to pay for lessons one really doesn't want to learn.

Add this to, I'm really a nice guy, my long list of experiences I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Ron

 

[awake]

IMHO and experience, you have to spend a fair amount of coin to buy a true turn-key printer. I didn't want another project, but my significant other really wanted a printer . . . The following experiences are an over view of my life from Christmas day 2022 to the 2nd week of March 2023 working on absolutely nothing else. Finished just in time to pack up for a week long visit by 6 relatives.

I didn't try to keep track of how many rabbit warrens I had to go down to learn what was needed to make a sub-assembly change. But it's the same as needing to learn how build a tool, to build a second tool, to make a part. But it was painful to say the least. At times I wanted to pitch them in the street just for the momentary satisfaction of seeing them smashed to pieces.

Purchased an Ender 6. Then trying to install a "bed leveling" kit, better described as a semi-auto nozzle off-set kit, resulted in a bricked screen. End result was an after-maket screen and after-maket bed leveling kit. And "Oh by the way" need to use 3 programs to teek firm-ware and use a Linux machine after tiring of trying to get Windows 10 Security to allow me to use a COM port. And where the assembly instructions "kinda" skipped over the need to reverse the Z settings for the Ender 6 bed moving rather than the more typical gantry Z. And a cold end jam every time the nozzle did a very good imitation of a wood pecker trying to figure it out.

On advice of an aquantce, purchased an assembled Prusa Mk3S+ just so she could print "something". The filament gear came loose on the 3rd print, took almost two weeks to figure that one out after trying to chase down cold end filament jams. Yes, I got really intimate with hot/cold end disassembly procedures. That was after doing a partial disassembly to put it in their enclosure trying to make sense of instructions that assumed understanding based on assembly from a kit. Took comments provided by the user community to get through that bit of fun.

I've come to think of them like owning an early turn of the 20th century car. Endless opportunities to pay for lessons one really doesn't want to learn.

Add this to, I'm really a nice guy, my long list of experiences I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Ron

Ouch, Ron, you've had a time of it. Your story illustrates the fact that the word "printing" can be very misleading - whether with resin or with filament, 3d printing is not nearly as straightforward as, say, printing a page on a laser printer. It does sound like you ran into greater complications than normal - normally a Prusa is about as reliable as one can get - but even so, it isn't as simple as "printing" would suggest.

 

[KellisRJ]

I won't lie or exaggerate. It was painful. Especially the Prusa. Like you, the friend who pointed me to it was aghast at what I was going through. I do think it's settled out now. And as much as I didn't care for the lessons, I now have a much better understanding of how the components are " supposed" to work together.

 

[GreenTwin]

The moment of truth has arrived.
Do I push the "Complete Registration" button, and risk my wife having a seizure?
This thing will be too big to hide when it arrives.

Decisions, decisions.................

.

 

[GreenTwin]

Ouch, $220.00 for shipping.
Total amount is an eye watering number.
I will have to work like a beaver to pay for this thing.
Lets hope it works as well as it is suppose to work.

.

 

[stanstocker]

The moment of truth has arrived.
Do I push the "Complete Registration" button, and risk my wife having a seizure?
This thing will be too big to hide when it arrives.

Decisions, decisions.................

.

Oh My,
Envy may be an ugly trait, but I must say I do have a twitch of it going on. It appears to be a really nice machine with a focus on print quality, I hope you get a lot of pleasure from it! There is a heck of a step up in quality when you go from lower end stuff up into the Vornon and RatRig printers and the other CoreXY high end machines! Heck, even my little VMinion cantilever higher end printer is a huge improvement in print quality and reliability from my other machines.

Cheers,
Stan

 

[vk7krj]

Sigh!!- my pre-order didn't go in until June '22- and that was for a 5 head one- looks like I still have a looong wait!

Green Twin, if you do get yours I will be very interested to hear of your experiences with it.

 

[GreenTwin]

It is a lot of money by any measure, and that will bite when the bill comes due.

I am hoping the quality/size/output will make it worth the money.

I have a lot of engines i want to cast.

.

 

[GreenTwin]

I may 3D print matchplates.

As I mentioned previously, I lean towards the larger scale models, such as bores between 1.5" and 2.0", and flywheels between 10" and 12" diameter.

This printer should make it much easier to print a pattern half in one pass (up to 14" I think).

.

 

[GreenTwin]

Green Twin, if you do get yours I will be very interested to hear of your experiences with it.

Will do.

.

 

[GreenTwin]

Doing some research on the Prusa XL, the consensus seems to be that the XL is considered a "high-end" 3D printer, and a poll of potential buyers shows that the majority either find the XL price too high, or are going to wait and see if the XL lives up to its features/hype.

One about 1/3 of the poll said they would purchase an XL now.

The high-end users said they are interested in an XL because it would provide them with a commercial-grade 3D printer that would be very cost effective for their application.

One of my goals for purchasing an XL is to try and recreated the patterns for some of the more popular model engine kits, such as the Ball Hopper Monitor, the Frisco Standard marine engine, a bottle steam engine, perhaps a Dake, and a horizontal O&S steam engine.

I have purchased a few casting kits in the past, and my main complaint is that the kits are so small (small being relative to what each individual considers "small") that I find them very tedious to machine, and very unforgiving with tolerances.
The slightest miscalculation on small parts, or a little too much machine tool flex, often causes some very difficult alignment problems during assembly.

My eyesight is not that great these days either, and I have difficulty seeing scribed lines on small parts.

I have never felt constrained in any way with having to build small model engines, and in fact I prefer small working-class engines which sometimes are larger than a typical model engine.

I define a "working-class" small engine as something like the Cretors line of steam engines, such as their No.1, 2 and 6, which were made to work with a small load all day every day, without any excessive wear problems.
The Cretors engines all had poured babbitt bearings, and the book that was written by the Cretors folks mentioned that the intent of the original Cretors steam engine designs was to build engines that never had to be returned to the shop for repair.

I have a Cretors No.01 that must be 100 years old, and the wear on the various parts and bearings is minimal.
Generally the most wear on a Cretors engine seems to be at the crank pin and associated bearing.

I intend to use poured babbitt bearings for any engine I cast.

The green twin oscillator shown in my avatar is another example of a small working-class engine.
The original green twin oscillator was build apparently in England, is a very high quality, robust, professionally made small engine.
Photo attached of the original green twin oscillator from Prestons Services.
My guess is that this engine could have been used on sewing machines, machine tools, etc., and its non-dead-center design and easy reversing would lend it to many applications that require those features.

The original green twin shown below has a 10" diameter flywheel, but was advertised as a 12" flywheel.
Had I known that the original green twin flywheel was 10" diameter, I would have made a 1:1 scale replica of it.
Indeed I may print 1:1 patterns for this engine on the XL, since I have the design in 3D.

 

[GreenTwin]

I am told over again by some (I won't mention names) that most hobby model engine folks have smaller lathes, and thus a good size casting kit to offer are the ones that will fit most small lathes.

I don't prescribe to this philosophy because I have always wanted to make small-sized engines, not model engines, and thus perhaps a "small engine" forum would be better suited for me than a "model engine" forum.
However, I am not aware of any "small engine" forums, and so here I am on a model engine forum, generally at odds with much of the model engine community concerning typical engine maximum size.

My goal is not to make patterns/castings for the masses for small model engines, but rather to make a few patterns/castings for select small working-class engines.

Not to be arrogant, but if you want to build a small engine that is bigger that the standard model engine, and your lathe is too small, my recommendation is to buy a bigger lathe.

Another alternative is to farm out the machining work on the parts that are too large for your lathe, such as a flywheel, and I have considered this, and know folks who provide this service on commercial machines.

Building engines with a 2" bore and a 10"-12" flywheel is definitely not for the masses, but it is perfect for me, and that will be my focus with the XL purchase.

.

 

[stanstocker]

The flywheel size can be a limiting factor for many home shop folks. I'd suggest casting a suspicious eye at the rotary table and milling machine when encountering something just a bit too large for the lathe available. With a tooling plate on a moderate size rotary table I've cleaned up the perimeter of some fairly good sized disks, certainly larger than my SB 10K can handle. It can be a little nerve racking, and takes a bit of finagling, but given the price for a 14 inch lathe these days having a work around beats having no way forwards.

Consider how many flywheel sorts of things have been predominantly machined on a rotary table with a mill, then transferred to a lathe to face and do a final clean up on the OD. Seems most of that clean up can happen on the mill with just a bit of creative thought.

Cheers,
Stan

 

[lee webster]

That poses an interesting question Mr Twin. When does an engine become a model? Is a small engine made a fraction smaller than the original, not classed as a model?
I am reminded of a sketch by the Monty Python team, something along the lines of Tom Browns schooldays, when Tomkinson, in the model engineering class, built a full size ice breaker. If only he had made it a tad smaller, he might have been allowed to keep it.
It's all right, I haven't gone mad, just been out in the sun too long.

 

[GreenTwin]

Its relative to who you ask I guess.

For me, there is a difference between small engines that are build basically for display, and engines that were designed and built for powering a load.

Perhaps a better term would be "load capable" and "non-load capable".

Even the smallest Cretors engines had poured babbitt bearings, which reflects the fact that they powered a load all day every day, indefinitely.

I like all model engines, but especially admire the load carrying capability of some of them.

Another example is a Stuart 6A, which I think was often used to power small launches.
Some of the other Stuarts powered things like generators as I recall.

So its a bonus for me to go to the trouble of building a complex engine to actually find some working powered function for it.
Anyone can build something that goes round and round.
It takes significantly more effort to design an engine that is durable and long lasting while it works under a load.

Everyone has their reasons for being in the hobby.
My engine building endeavors tend to span outside of much of the model engine hobby world at times.
There is nothing that dictates exactly how you have to do the hobby, or what exact size you can or cannot build, although talking to some folks in the hobby, you would think it were that way.

Its all good.
Build what turns you on, and be happy doing that.

.

 

[lee webster]

Always have, always will.