My Flame Gulper
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doc1955
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Thats what I found on the flame licker engines I built, if I had the flame to high they didn't run so good I lowered and they ran much better. Plus I found that denatured alcohol works the best for fuel I've been buying mine at Walmart.putputman said:
I was hoping you would get it to run when you started yours I get all revved up and stated one of this type also but got side tracked on the beam engine. It is setting here waiting its turn on getting finished.
Powder keg
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Sounds like your on the right track Nick!
Yeah Nick! You don't know how happy it made ME to see YOUR engine starting to run on it's own two legs. Woot!
Really glad for you, and glad to see it myself.
By the way.. I couldn't understand a thing your young one was saying. Must be that crazy accent.
Dean
Really glad for you, and glad to see it myself.
By the way.. I couldn't understand a thing your young one was saying. Must be that crazy accent.
Dean
Thanks guys, much appreciated. I will try to get the denatured stuff, if not some new meths will have to do and I'll tweak the burner to see if that makes the difference.
Dean, we can't understand must of it either, he's 18 months old so only has a few words in his repetoire at the moment - Bear, Stuck, Book, Choc (Chocolate) etc! You're right though, you probably wouldn't get the accent! :big:
I find it slightly strange that just making the bore and pistons fit together slightly better made it go from not trying at all to a (nearly) running engine! It shows how critical it is. The only other thing changed was the piston was a bit more hollowed out as per the drawings. I'm now slightly anxious to see if that really made any difference and make a piston my way - but don't think I'll bother! :big:
Nick
Dean, we can't understand must of it either, he's 18 months old so only has a few words in his repetoire at the moment - Bear, Stuck, Book, Choc (Chocolate) etc! You're right though, you probably wouldn't get the accent! :big:
I find it slightly strange that just making the bore and pistons fit together slightly better made it go from not trying at all to a (nearly) running engine! It shows how critical it is. The only other thing changed was the piston was a bit more hollowed out as per the drawings. I'm now slightly anxious to see if that really made any difference and make a piston my way - but don't think I'll bother! :big:
Nick
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NickG
The follow is a copy of several e-mail exchanges with Jim Senft, who designed the "Poppin": (Jim's comments are in brackets)
MRC-I built your "Poppin" and thatseemed to work just fine (it's about
the cutest little engine ever!)
[thanks-are you running the pistondry or oiled?]
MRC I ran it dry, cast iron cylinder and piston, fit was good, used fiber optic film to fit piston to cylinder.I didn't want oil running down on the little wooden cart (nothing like aesthetics crippling a fine design!). After a while it wouldn't run very well and on inspection the bore was full of "stuff". I was using propane (a disposable lighter) but with a yellow flame. I have taken it apart and am going to clean the bore out and change the piston to graphite (isn't e-bay fun) I am going switch the fuel over to ethyl alcohol.
[Thanks for the reply to my question re dry or oiled. A castiron piston in a cast iron cylinder will run for extended periods withjust boundary lubrictaion (a smear of oil when assembling) on smallStirling engines under conditions that impose little side loading. However, in a vacuum engine, unburnt products of combustion accumulate under "dry" conditions and eventually gum up the works. The average state of vacuum in a vacuum engine generates a steady flow of oil through the cylinder and out the valve and keeps everythingfreely moving indefinitely. My engines were not mounted on wood so the oil was not a problem as long as we steered clear of the livingroom coffee table. Mounting on wood is a good idea though for these engines, since at high speed they can start to danceabout.]
MRC-I made a lubricator and put the cast iron piston back in the "Poppin" and ran it on alcohol "Everclear" . I am running synthetic motor oil in the lubricator (it seems to feed OK and I'm hoping the detergent partkeeps the "stuff" in suspension so it will come out). I ran it for about an hour, and it ran just fine! It seemed to stay veryclean when I pulled the heads to look in the cylinder.
Nick,
He was right I now use synthetic motor oil (Mobile1) and the engine sucks it in and blows it out the head (doesn't drip on the cart after all). If the oiler is open too far it spits flaming drops out the intake hole! It will run until the paint on the frame starts to smoke so I shut it off. I never made the graphite piston. I have heard that oil is a definite no-no with graphite.
Thank you VERY much for posting your build. I am interested in hearing how the new burner works out...
MikeR C
The follow is a copy of several e-mail exchanges with Jim Senft, who designed the "Poppin": (Jim's comments are in brackets)
MRC-I built your "Poppin" and thatseemed to work just fine (it's about
the cutest little engine ever!)
[thanks-are you running the pistondry or oiled?]
MRC I ran it dry, cast iron cylinder and piston, fit was good, used fiber optic film to fit piston to cylinder.I didn't want oil running down on the little wooden cart (nothing like aesthetics crippling a fine design!). After a while it wouldn't run very well and on inspection the bore was full of "stuff". I was using propane (a disposable lighter) but with a yellow flame. I have taken it apart and am going to clean the bore out and change the piston to graphite (isn't e-bay fun) I am going switch the fuel over to ethyl alcohol.
[Thanks for the reply to my question re dry or oiled. A castiron piston in a cast iron cylinder will run for extended periods withjust boundary lubrictaion (a smear of oil when assembling) on smallStirling engines under conditions that impose little side loading. However, in a vacuum engine, unburnt products of combustion accumulate under "dry" conditions and eventually gum up the works. The average state of vacuum in a vacuum engine generates a steady flow of oil through the cylinder and out the valve and keeps everythingfreely moving indefinitely. My engines were not mounted on wood so the oil was not a problem as long as we steered clear of the livingroom coffee table. Mounting on wood is a good idea though for these engines, since at high speed they can start to danceabout.]
MRC-I made a lubricator and put the cast iron piston back in the "Poppin" and ran it on alcohol "Everclear" . I am running synthetic motor oil in the lubricator (it seems to feed OK and I'm hoping the detergent partkeeps the "stuff" in suspension so it will come out). I ran it for about an hour, and it ran just fine! It seemed to stay veryclean when I pulled the heads to look in the cylinder.
Nick,
He was right I now use synthetic motor oil (Mobile1) and the engine sucks it in and blows it out the head (doesn't drip on the cart after all). If the oiler is open too far it spits flaming drops out the intake hole! It will run until the paint on the frame starts to smoke so I shut it off. I never made the graphite piston. I have heard that oil is a definite no-no with graphite.
Thank you VERY much for posting your build. I am interested in hearing how the new burner works out...
MikeR C
Wow,
Thanks for the info Mike. Your lubericator looks very smart, is that to Jim's design? Can't quite see in the photo. Did you post some larger ones back in this post? Will have to have a look in a bit. Got to scoot off to a meeting!
Will post any progress.
Nick
Thanks for the info Mike. Your lubericator looks very smart, is that to Jim's design? Can't quite see in the photo. Did you post some larger ones back in this post? Will have to have a look in a bit. Got to scoot off to a meeting!
Will post any progress.
Nick
Jeroen Jonkman
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Nick,
so glad I've seen your video! You are so close now, this is an exiting and happy time.
You wrote about your flywheel, and how you are not sure what to do. I have changed the flywheel too and it seems to run at least just as good as the original one. I'm not saying you should change yours, in fact, it is far nicer than mine, but to give you some more information I've measured mine and placed it here for you to check.
I'm anxious to see the next video and hope you will soon find the right setup so it runs to even exceed your dreams!
Jeroen
so glad I've seen your video! You are so close now, this is an exiting and happy time.
You wrote about your flywheel, and how you are not sure what to do. I have changed the flywheel too and it seems to run at least just as good as the original one. I'm not saying you should change yours, in fact, it is far nicer than mine, but to give you some more information I've measured mine and placed it here for you to check.
I'm anxious to see the next video and hope you will soon find the right setup so it runs to even exceed your dreams!
Jeroen
Hi all - update on the engine:
I had to come home early from work yesterday afternoon so I took the opportunity to go and buy some Industrial Denatured Alcohol (Industrial Meths, which is 99% ethanol). Luckily there is an oil / paint / chemical merchant near by called Smith & Allan. Cost me £16.02 for 5 litres. Incidentally they also do a similar lubricant to WD40 for £12 a gallon bit cheaper!
I tried the engine last night with the new fuel and with the wick in the strange position that I found best before. With the tiniest touch of the flywheel it burst into life straight from lighting the burner! I was gobsmacked, it was running away with itself, never seen it going so fast, but then it stopped. This was partly because the flame was twitching around so much at that speed, and partly because some condensation built up.
I restarted it, here is the video - it didn't go for long but probably longer than it had done before, still going at a fair rate! This was with the oil that was left from the previous run a couple of days before, but I'd run out of that electric razor oil now:
After this it was a bit of a pain and I was fiddling around for quite a bit to get it started again, probably took a while to warm up. But then I decided to try some engine oil as suggested by Mike RC and David D. I only had 10w40 semi synthetic which is a bit thicker than the 5w30 suggested. Anyway, I tried some of that as well as messing around with flame positions again. I also put a drop of oil down each side of the flywheel and on the push rod etc.
Bizzarely I then found a another sweet spot for the burner that seems to make it run not as fast, but more consistently - funnily enough, this was exactly where Jan Ridders suggests and Jeroen Jonkman and Blogs have theirs - on the other side of the port.
This is the longest video I captured of it running as previously whenever I reached for the camera it stopped! It had run for a couple of minutes before I started this video and it only stopped because it ran out of fuel this time! You will notice the different flame position and you might notice that it is running in the opposite direction. It seems to run the same in either direction, its just that this direction tends to try to tighten the crankpin rather than loosen it.
;D
I then filled the burner back up and tried again, it ran pretty much until the burner ran out, which was probably over 20 mins only stopping a couple of times on the way due to the flame fluttering a bit too much. I think a larger wick would give a more stable and wider flame which would help a bit. What also happens is - the engine speeds up, then the flame gets blown around a bit and it slows down, flame stabilises and it picks back up again.
I tried to run it again today but because the oil had thickened up with reduced temperature it took a few minutes to warm up but then settled into that steady rhythm again. Im absolutely chuffed with this project now and I consider it complete. I was going to open some Cava we have in the fridge to celebrate but the wife wouldnt let me! :big:
Only problem now is, what to do with all that metal I bought for Poppin. I might try to design a Hit & Miss IC engine based on the design of poppin.
At this point Id like to give a big thanks to everybody for their interest, support and encouragement as well as some invaluable advice. :bow:
Nick
I had to come home early from work yesterday afternoon so I took the opportunity to go and buy some Industrial Denatured Alcohol (Industrial Meths, which is 99% ethanol). Luckily there is an oil / paint / chemical merchant near by called Smith & Allan. Cost me £16.02 for 5 litres. Incidentally they also do a similar lubricant to WD40 for £12 a gallon bit cheaper!
I tried the engine last night with the new fuel and with the wick in the strange position that I found best before. With the tiniest touch of the flywheel it burst into life straight from lighting the burner! I was gobsmacked, it was running away with itself, never seen it going so fast, but then it stopped. This was partly because the flame was twitching around so much at that speed, and partly because some condensation built up.
I restarted it, here is the video - it didn't go for long but probably longer than it had done before, still going at a fair rate! This was with the oil that was left from the previous run a couple of days before, but I'd run out of that electric razor oil now:
After this it was a bit of a pain and I was fiddling around for quite a bit to get it started again, probably took a while to warm up. But then I decided to try some engine oil as suggested by Mike RC and David D. I only had 10w40 semi synthetic which is a bit thicker than the 5w30 suggested. Anyway, I tried some of that as well as messing around with flame positions again. I also put a drop of oil down each side of the flywheel and on the push rod etc.
Bizzarely I then found a another sweet spot for the burner that seems to make it run not as fast, but more consistently - funnily enough, this was exactly where Jan Ridders suggests and Jeroen Jonkman and Blogs have theirs - on the other side of the port.
This is the longest video I captured of it running as previously whenever I reached for the camera it stopped! It had run for a couple of minutes before I started this video and it only stopped because it ran out of fuel this time! You will notice the different flame position and you might notice that it is running in the opposite direction. It seems to run the same in either direction, its just that this direction tends to try to tighten the crankpin rather than loosen it.
;D
I then filled the burner back up and tried again, it ran pretty much until the burner ran out, which was probably over 20 mins only stopping a couple of times on the way due to the flame fluttering a bit too much. I think a larger wick would give a more stable and wider flame which would help a bit. What also happens is - the engine speeds up, then the flame gets blown around a bit and it slows down, flame stabilises and it picks back up again.
I tried to run it again today but because the oil had thickened up with reduced temperature it took a few minutes to warm up but then settled into that steady rhythm again. Im absolutely chuffed with this project now and I consider it complete. I was going to open some Cava we have in the fridge to celebrate but the wife wouldnt let me! :big:
Only problem now is, what to do with all that metal I bought for Poppin. I might try to design a Hit & Miss IC engine based on the design of poppin.
At this point Id like to give a big thanks to everybody for their interest, support and encouragement as well as some invaluable advice. :bow:
Nick
Nick,
Very well done indeed, all that worrying and anguish over a bit of meths.
But as you have been told by a lot of people, these engines will use any excuse not to run. Get the bits right, and they will run forever.
In all honesty, I personally would give it a good clean out with meths, and keep the oil well away from the cylinder and anything that runs in it. I only put a tiny amount on the crankpin in the piston and on the pin that goes thru the top sliding valve. Of course where the rod runs thru the cylinder and big end should be done as well.
I found that running with any oil in the cylinder, it stopped running after about 15 mins, clogged up with gunge, but with a clean bore, it just goes on for hours and hours.
Mine must have well over 100 hours on it now. When I am just sitting at my bench with finger up my a**e and brain in neutral, I just get it out and let it run a while, it is a very soothing pastime, just watching it ticking over at that constant slow pace, it almost puts you to sleep.
Blogs
Very well done indeed, all that worrying and anguish over a bit of meths.
But as you have been told by a lot of people, these engines will use any excuse not to run. Get the bits right, and they will run forever.
In all honesty, I personally would give it a good clean out with meths, and keep the oil well away from the cylinder and anything that runs in it. I only put a tiny amount on the crankpin in the piston and on the pin that goes thru the top sliding valve. Of course where the rod runs thru the cylinder and big end should be done as well.
I found that running with any oil in the cylinder, it stopped running after about 15 mins, clogged up with gunge, but with a clean bore, it just goes on for hours and hours.
Mine must have well over 100 hours on it now. When I am just sitting at my bench with finger up my a**e and brain in neutral, I just get it out and let it run a while, it is a very soothing pastime, just watching it ticking over at that constant slow pace, it almost puts you to sleep.
Blogs
Blogs,
Thanks very much.
I might try that as this new meths might be less prone to muckying things up so it may run a lot faster. Depends whether my seal is good enough between piston and bore without it, it should be as it's run before without oil, just for a limited period. With the oil it will run until the meths runs out now but at a slightly reduced speed so very happy with that.
I agree it's a mesmorising engine to watch, sounds a bit like a large clock ticking! I'm not sure I want to do poppin now though, I think making flame lickers might be out of my system - fancy an IC engine!
Nick
Thanks very much.
I might try that as this new meths might be less prone to muckying things up so it may run a lot faster. Depends whether my seal is good enough between piston and bore without it, it should be as it's run before without oil, just for a limited period. With the oil it will run until the meths runs out now but at a slightly reduced speed so very happy with that.
I agree it's a mesmorising engine to watch, sounds a bit like a large clock ticking! I'm not sure I want to do poppin now though, I think making flame lickers might be out of my system - fancy an IC engine!
Nick
putputman
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Congratulations Nick, I knew it was just a matter of time and you would whip it.
I recommend you go ahead and build the Poppin. It has some differant characteristics and is not quite as sensitive. You will get some experience with timing that might help in your I.C. engines later on.
I recommend you go ahead and build the Poppin. It has some differant characteristics and is not quite as sensitive. You will get some experience with timing that might help in your I.C. engines later on.
Jeroen Jonkman
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Hi Nick, glad you got it figured out!
Trying to find the best result can take a long time, but at least you can say it is completed!
It looks like the end of your wick is actually burning, which is not optimum because of the contamination being sucked in. Try to allow for a loose fit of the wick in the burner, so the alcohol can move upwards freely.
You have made a very, very nice engine indeed!
Jeroen
Trying to find the best result can take a long time, but at least you can say it is completed!
It looks like the end of your wick is actually burning, which is not optimum because of the contamination being sucked in. Try to allow for a loose fit of the wick in the burner, so the alcohol can move upwards freely.
You have made a very, very nice engine indeed!
Jeroen
Jeroen,
Funny you mentioned that, I wondered why that was happening but I thought it might be being choked as you said. I've made my wick a tight fit in the burner so it wouldn't fall down, thought it seemed a bit tight when I did it. Will open that up.
Thankyou very much.
Nick
Funny you mentioned that, I wondered why that was happening but I thought it might be being choked as you said. I've made my wick a tight fit in the burner so it wouldn't fall down, thought it seemed a bit tight when I did it. Will open that up.
Thankyou very much.
Nick
Congratulations!
I had been wanting to build one of these as it looks simple (Ha!), so I have been on the edge of my seat waiting to see what happens. Thank you VERY much for time you spent keeping us up to date on the project. I have some graphite and when the current project is done I'm gonna take a whack at building one now that I know they really run Have a "K".
Thanx again,
Mike C
I had been wanting to build one of these as it looks simple (Ha!), so I have been on the edge of my seat waiting to see what happens. Thank you VERY much for time you spent keeping us up to date on the project. I have some graphite and when the current project is done I'm gonna take a whack at building one now that I know they really run
Have a "K".Thanx again,
Mike C
Thanks again Bob, Mike and Dean. It is pleasing to watch! Good luck on your build Mike, hopefully there are some bits for possible learning in my ramblings. A graphite piston and valve sounds a good way to go. I'll be watching with great interest once you start.
Nick
Nick
