My Flame Gulper

[NickG]

Dean,

People always say they never know what to get for me so, sounds a bit harsh, but I have started doing a list again - just like when I was a boy! Only now it's on a spreadsheet that gets e-mailed out with links to suppliers etc! It takes a bit of the excitement out of opening presents but also takes some potential disappointment out :big: Only joking really, it's the thought that counts but I think people would rather know their money is going on something useful!

Thanks Dean, no rush, I will have a look on the net for the wiggler stuff too.

Well it says fully hardened but I did a light rub with a needle file last night and it cut! So might be able to saw it off, I'd prob get away without the drawbar but not ideal. I can't really think of a way of gripping it to drill and tap, unless I turned a spigot in the lathe and gripped the chuck onto that but sounds a bit dodgy!

The Hexol is water soluble cutting oil, for when / if I ever get my suds pump sorted! Thought I'd be able to brush it on neat for now? I've not used any cutting oil in any projects thus far.

Nick

 

[winklmj]

...and a wiggler set, which if anybody knows how to use, please tell me!

Nick

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/video/WigglerKit30fps.wmv

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Steve (Cedge) has a nice video...see if this helps...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2656.0

 

[NickG]

Cheers guys, and Steve.

Nick

 

[NickG]

I had a decent night in the workshop last night. I reamed the cylinder with that adjustable reamer and plenty of oil. The bore is now very round and parallel compared to before. I am not going to bother lapping at this stage as I think the finish is smooth enough. I also turned an aluminium valve - this may be no good, it was more of an exercise to find out what a good fit is. I turned one to a few hundreths of a mm below the bore size and it is a much superior fit than before. Slides freely yet seems very air tight without oil. I will probably give it a try, until I can get some more cast iron. I just need to do the piston to the same standard now. Not sure whether to try aluminium again to keep weight down or gunmetal which would probably be better for the application. It's just the differential expansion that I'm worried about - it could bind up when the bits get hot. I can only try, if it doesn't work after this I'm at a definite loss - the fit is definitely good enough now, and it is the same at any position now.

Nick

ps I had a reply from a French chap that had made one and showed it on youtube. He was quite helpful with timing figures and directed me to a french forum - this was the first bit I clicked on:

http://www.blooo.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2403&p=1

Nice finish on that one!

 

[cfellows]

Nick,

These little flame lickers can be really exasperating. I've built several and only ever got one to work. And, it's not 100% reliable.

Some of the French and German hobbiests seem to have it pretty well nailed. The one in your link is a beauty.

Chuck

 

[NickG]

Chuck, it was poppin the one that you got to work wasn't it? It seems a pretty well sorted design. Just had a look on your youtube page and it seems to run beautifully! They seem a bit tempremental to say the least. I just hope my flame licker escapades don't put me off!

Nick

 

[NickG]

Hi all,

Got more done in workshop last night - got the valve finished and the piston made, both from aluminium this time. All was going very well until I used my new tail stock die holder to thread the bit that goes inside the piston for the wrist / gudgeon pin and it snapped! I think I’d done the undercut too deep, so I did it again without an undercut! Luckily it didn’t take long the 2nd time as everything was set up. It took me ages to get the vice clocked back square on the milling machine etc.

The piston is pretty much to Jan’s original design now, just the wrong material!

Anyway, the piston and valve both had a very nice fit. Excellent seal whilst hardly any friction.
It was 00:50 hrs by the time I finished that so I thought I’d leave test run for today. Just tried it and there was good and bad news!

Here is the good news:


This is actually quite a bit more free running than before and with a better fit, that can only be a good thing.

However, when I pre warmed the cylinder to get rid of any condensate first, my worst fears came into being! I half expected this to happen!


The engine had seized completely due to the aluminium expanding faster than the cast iron!

So at least this exercise tells us something we thought anyway - it’s not easy to use aluminium pistons with cast iron where heat is involved! It may be possible with the correct clearances though – not sure how to calculate this and have no desire to. I’ll have to wait for some cast iron now.

Promising though, If I can achieve the same fit with the cast iron there SHOULD be nothing stopping it from running!

Here is a pile of scrap – there were a couple of other components that got shot straight in the bin in anger – at least the experimental flywheel can be saved for future projects!

Nick

 

[Deanofid]

Dean,

People always say they never know what to get for me so, sounds a bit harsh, but I have started doing a list again - just like when I was a boy! Only now it's on a spreadsheet that gets e-mailed out with links to suppliers etc!

Thanks Dean, no rush, I will have a look on the net for the wiggler stuff too.

Doesn't sound harsh, Nick. It's sensible. I love Christmas, but like it most because I'm a Christian, and enjoy that celebratory aspect of it very much.
Still, our family is in the habit of gift giving, and it's a fun thing, too. I tell everyone else but my mother just to get me socks, and have them convinced not to get me anything else. Socks always fit! Mom won't have it though, so she asks me every year what I really want. I almost always tell her something machinist related, and she has no idea what it is, but says "Go order it". Then when it comes in, I take it over to her house, she wraps it, and I unwrap it on Christmas. She did the same for my dad when he was living. He was into RC planes and making stained glass. She just told him to go order it, then made him give it to her for wrapping when it showed up on the parcel truck.
It's a good system!

Looks like you got good links to wiggler use, so I won't do any redundant pictures.

You know, I'm really rootin' for you on this flamer. It deserves to run, and you deserve to have a runner! It's a neat looking engine, and we all want to hear it popping along. Really glad you're still kicking at it to bring it to life.

Carry on, Nick!

Dean

 

[NickG]

Dean,

Yeah good idea with the gifts - I'm sure we will always do it. Socks are always on my list, I can't actually remember ever buying any myself! We try to put a limit on the amount as it is the thought that counts. If people really want something they're going to buy it anyway!

I don't want to give up on it, I've probably definitely put more effort into this project than any of my others so I will keep going. Cast iron piston and valve and larger diameter wick is the course of action now. Beyond that, I can't quite see where I'm going wrong. What I don't want to do is re-make everything! I might as well try the other design.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Nick

 

[putputman]

Nick, it looks like you are very close to the end now. The timing and fits are right. Thermoexpansion is a killer. Have you considered using graphite for your pistons. I had to go that route to get mine running but it was worth it. Once you get the properly fit, you only have to keep it clean to keep it running.
Best of luck with the engine and Happy New Year.

 

[zturgut]

Hi Nick,
Though I do not think I am experienced enough to give any advice or make comment about this engine (at least not before I get mine running ) I could not wait since you wrote about trying some other design. I could not get if you are talking about the "poppin" or the "two cylinder" of Jan Ridders. I know that the engine did not manage to run but I wonder if you have felt any tendence to run (more number of turns till it stops) when you tried it with flame. If so, there may be another alternative like turning the engine into a two cylinder by building another (completely symmetrical) one and connecting it to the same crank shaft with 180 degrees angle. Although this is doubling the risk I think it will provide continous power applied on the crank shaft. During the forward stroke of one piston the other will be on compression. Also when I watch the J. Ridders videos, I have the imression that the two cylinder one is running a little more stable...Just an idea.. I think that no effort and work done is useless even if it fails, but for me this project of yours really deserves to be a success somehow. I hope you don't put it on the shelf before it runs.
Regards,
Zeki

 

[NickG]

Arv,

I hope so! I wouldn't know where to get the graphite and also how did you fasten your piston? In the same way with a yoke but drill right through and fasten with nut and washer? I can't imagine tapping it?

Happy new year to you too, all the best.

Zeki,

sorry for any confusion, it was 'poppin' that I was thinking of trying if this doesn't work, it's a more conventional design with a cam operated valve. Good point about the twin cylinder, but the way I have my base it'd be like building a whole new engine, the only thing I'd save was the flywheel and bearing uprights - in which case I'd rather try a different design. The only tendency I felt for it trying to run was possibly a few more turns when flicked over, but again, this is subjective as it's difficult to give the same power each time on your flick!

I was actually thinking about making another piston / valve from steel last night before I can get my hands on cast iron - that's how desperate I am to get it to run! It can only be that that is stopping it. As putputman says, the route I go down may have to be graphite.

Thanks for your comments.

Nick

 

[jimmyocharlie]

i know what you mean about wanting to get it done Nick, i'm still waiting for my bearings for the bandsaw to turn up :'(

i've spent too much time over the holidays with a hacksaw in my hand :big: :big:

i had my EZ engine running yesterday to lift my spirits!!!

 

[Blogwitch]

Nick,

As I said to you at the very beginning, this engine could tax you somewhat, I don't think you realised just how much.

I was very lucky with mine and got the fits just right first time, and so had very little trouble (compared to yourself) in getting both my cylinders firing.

It is such a shame you don't live a little closer, as I could have got your 'play with' materials out of my stash boxes, and maybe could even have seen where your problems lay.

I don't think I have any more suggestions for you to try, my bucket is now empty.

The only thing I could suggest is do what you are going to do, and see if it cures your problem, then if it doesn't, put it away for a while, and carry on with a more guaranteed project, there is no shame in that, you have suffered enough at this time, and when eventually I get the gas burners into a working state, I will send you one and see if that helps to solve your problem.


Blogs

 

[Jeroen Jonkman]

Hello Nick,

I've just found this forum and your amazing posts on your version of the flame gulper.
You've asked me some questions about my flame gulper on YouTube, and now I've seen yours, I'm sure that it is only a matter of a few more hours before it runs.
Everything looks nice, well build and figured out. The fit of the piston and valve is important as well as the flame. Keep close to the recommendations of Jan Ridders, and you will find everything will fall into place. A twin cylinder (in boxer configuration, as the one Blogwitch made) is possible, but not necessary for it to be a good runner. Mine will start and run 100% reliable, yours will soon...

Best of luck and hang in there, greetings from Holland

 

[NickG]

Hi Blogs,

You were right, I didn't think it'd be this taxing and it is very frustrating. As I said before, I've put the most work into this and got the least out, so having something that wouldn’t even try to work was hard. So I’ve tried to be as methodical as possible with my trouble shooting. Thanks for the offer – if I’m still struggling I might just make the journey down there one day to see your good self and Stew as well!

Jeroen,

I’m glad you found the forum and I am glad I found your videos on youtube - thanks for answering my questions and giving your advice as Blogs, Jan Ridders and many others have. Please everybody have a look at some of Jeroens fantastic engines and videos on his youtube site: http://www.youtube.com/user/JeroenJonkman . Not sure whether you are working on a project currently Jeroen but I’m sure people would be interested to see some of your work on this forum?

Well, I feel I’ve made a pretty big step in the right direction over the weekend. On the off chance that it was open, I rang the metal place on Sat morning as we needed to go into town to find a new internal door. We can feel the draught from the utility room when in kitchen with this cold weather - the previous owners, for reasons only known to themselves took off the door and put it in the garden! Anyway, the metal place was open, so I got enough metal to do a new piston / valve for this engine and make two 'poppin' engines! Not bad for £16 squid, I like the fact that I can just work direct to proven drawings with known materials at that price.

Anyway, digressing again, I will just call the piston and valve pistons from now on as it’s annoying the heck out of me! I was allowed into the garage on Saturday afternoon to make new pistons from the cast iron bar as I couldn’t wait! I made them as good a fit as I could. That was the same dimensions as the alloy ones I made. They felt slightly sticky at first but a few strokes up and down in the cylinder knocked any high spots off. I’m sure people have got better fits than me, but I don’t think I’ll get them any better. The bore of the cylinder and the surface of the pistons weren’t polished, I didn’t do any lapping this time, the bore was reamed with an adjustable reamer with plenty of oil and the pistons were just turned with new carbide cutting tool with the slowest feed. They both have a very smooth feel to them and I think better like that than if I tried to lap them and make them not parallel or round.

I carefully cleaned and assembled the new components and spun the engine over with a flick of the flywheel – it ran very freely but made a nice sucking noise as with the alloy pistons. So I decided to try it. I warmed the cylinder with a pencil torch first then lit the meths burner. I was shocked when the engine started to pick up on it’s own. This was with the original cast iron flywheel incidentally. I watched in awe for a few seconds then rushed for the camera but by the time I got back it was slowing down and came to a halt. There was now some friction present, the meths I am using seems to put a nasty brown deposit on everything. So I tried some 3 in 1 oil but immediately noticed as a lot of people have said, it caused too much drag.

At this point I had arranged to go to a friend’s, but I went with a spring in my step and couldn’t stop thinking about it – I can’t be far away.

I’ve had another couple of chances to try running it since. One session late that night when I got back, and one on Sunday afternoon, both not totally successful though unfortunately.

Here is a short video from the first:


I seem to have found the optimum flame position for mine, which is very strange – it’s actually the other side of the port which is bizarre. The next best position seems to be where Jan Ridders suggests and where Jeroen and Blogs have positioned their flames but it doesn’t seem as good there, the flame gets blown about more.

Another thing I tried was changing the flywheel to the alloy one. That doesn’t seem to have enough inertia. It won’t carry it to the next stroke more than a couple of times and sort of kicks back. But maybe the big one still has too much – not sure, I don’t think so otherwise it wouldn’t run for as long as it did probably? I don’t want to take anything off the flywheel anyway because I can’t add it back on!

The engine seems to run for only around 30 seconds before it gives up the ghost. I think there are a couple of reasons for that, 1 is the deposit I am getting from the meths. I need to try to get hold of some denatured alcohol which is supposed to be better in that respect. The other thing is, as everybody has mentioned, they are very sensitive to flame position and the flame getting out of shape. I’ve noticed that I am using a wick ½ the diameter of what Jan suggests. Only 4mm instead of 8mm. That larger width of flame might give it more stability.

Here are two more runs, please excuse the noise from the kids they weren’t aware of the significance of this moment in my life! I was going to try and edit these for the best bits but might as well show them warts and all incase anybody picks up on anything.



In the last video, when I start it the final time, you can actually see the engine accelerate a little when I shoved the burner right into that corner in front of the port. This please me somewhat. Also in the last two videos I was using some very light oil which worked wonders on my stirling engine. Trouble is, I don’t really know what it is, it came with some electric hair clippers! The oil seems to prevent build up of the residue whilst maintaining a good seal and keeping friction down when hot.

So a couple of things I am thinking are:
1. I really need a larger diameter wick, so I’ll make a new burner cap with larger wick tube. Blogs, I noticed you stated in the twin cylinder project log that vertical wick tubes are better. I angled mine over so I could get it right against the port face, do you think this would make a difference. I could always trim the height of the burner and use vertical tube to get right up. Jan still has a slight angle on his single but straight on his twin the same as yours.
2. I need to try some denatured alcohol if possible, hopefully without nasty residues.
3. Could I make a drip feed oil cup at each end of the cylinder like ‘poppin’ has. The author of that article swears blind the oil feed is necessary, he suggests sewing machine oil. Mine does seem to like the oil. When it stops and I re-apply a couple of drops of oil, it restarts again no trouble and doesn’t get snarled up with residue. However, the denatured alcohol may solve that, or a special gas burner like Blogs has suggested.
Feeling a lot more optimistic now, still some way to go but some encouraging progress. Thanks for watching and for your input guys.

Nick

 

[putputman]

Congratulations Nick, I think you are close to having this one whipped. :bow: :bow: :bow:

I heard that increase in rpm so I agree that some fine adjustments to your flame should solve your problems. Can you also lower the flame so it hit the engine lower and has more flame on cylinder.

Your audience sure sounded impressed with your engine. :big: :big: :big:

 

[Blogwitch]

Nick,

Very well done indeed, you are so close, that with a little fine tuning, you should have a continuous runner. Mine runs until it is out of fuel, but it is a bit of a gas guzzler.

There is definitely something wrong with that spirits you are using, you shouldn't hardly be able to see the flame at all. I use the normal purple stuff from the DIY stores, as it is very difficult for me to get the industrial meths any more. I am sure it will run a lot better once you change over.

I just couldn't get mine to run at all with an angled burner tube or on the side you are running it on. Both my cylinders work at exactly the same position, even though they are 'handed'. It must be something to do with the dimensional differences somewhere, even a tiny change might make the engine run in a different way. But you have got a runner, so why change it. Give the insides a good clean down with the clean meths to get rid of any residue, and try it without the oil first, it will take a while for it to bed in and get good running surfaces, that will happen faster if you can run without oil, just using the carbon content of the cast iron to form the bearing surfaces.

You must have a smile like a Cheshire cat ;D ;D
Blogs

 

[NickG]

Thanks putputman,

Glad the rpm increase wasn't just psycological! I did try making the flame smaller so the hotter part was being sucked in that that was a pretty similar result. Or did you mean physically lowering the whole thing but keeping same flame size. I might skim a bit off the top of the burner body so I can do that, can alway pack it up with something if need be.

It was probably them that made the flame wobble too much :big: no seriously though they are so twitchy it's unbelievable. I thought one with a big bore and stroke like this would have a decent amount of power but my 3/8" bore& 1/2" stroke stirling probably has more than 2 x power of this with a flame half 1/4 the size!

Thanks Blogs, just saw your reply as I was submitting this. Not sure why my flame is a bit orange. We have had that purple meths for years now though - probably more than 10 years, is it hydroscopic? I'll definitely try some new. People say to get the other stuff from a chemist but I didn't think chemists sell things like that any more!

Yeah, it could be dimensional differences, my bore is now 19.5mm instead of 18mm which makes the wall thinner to the port face, although I don't think I went as deep with my grooves originally - probably a good job or they'd be a bit close!

:big: I am much happier, almost went Ar*e over T*t running for the camera that first time! I'd be ecstatic if I could get it to run for a good 5 or 10 mins though!

Nick