It's a BAAAADDDDD thing...

[ddmckee54]

Every once in a while my obsession takes over, and I just have to scratch the itch.

This is it:

Since I found this image in Smokstak I've been tying to find any more information about this truck/half-track/road locomotive. The article referenced in Smokstak was in the January 7, 1922 issue of "American Lumberman" magazine. That article lists a number of performance specifications that imply at least a prototype was built. But I have not been able to verify that even a prototype was built, let alone any production versions.

I can find information about their log haulers, which are similar to Lombards, but not quite the same. I believe that they did have a license from Lombard for the tracks though.

I did track down more information on W.H. Winslow, the guy who designed the boiler. I even found patent information showing more information about the boiler that I believe was used in this thing - if it was built. It's an interesting design, very modular. You can make the boiler almost whatever size you need just by adding or removing sections.

Someday I'd like to build a model of this thing and I'd REALLY like to use more that just this image. If it was real, I'd LIKE to keep the model close to scale. If this was just some PR man's pipe-dream - well then I guess I can do pretty much whatever I like. I'd start with the Phoenix Log Hauler and go from there, call it the Centiped prototype.

Since I haven't been able to locate any other information on this thing, I'm beginning to think that this is an artist's rendition and that the performance numbers listed in American Lumberman were just some PR guy's wild-assed guess. There is also a very suspicious LACK of background in the image, even though it does have shadows. (I suppose they COULD have parked it on a cloth for the picture, to eliminate the background?)

I believe that Phoenix sold the truck design, and they kept to sawmill equipment. I think the design was sold to Allis-Chalmers who used it for their gas powered trucks? But pictures of the Allis machine's tracks don't jibe with the tracks in this image.

OK, I scratched the itch but it didn't help much - anybody got some calamine lotion?

Don

 

[ShopShoe]

Sorry I don't have anything to add regarding whether that was "real." However, I am reminded of the Model T snowmobile, which had similar tracks on the rear and skis on the front. (Just Google it and you'll get lots of links.)

It may be that ideas were being copied here and there as people were trying to find a niche in the vehicle business.

I do think you should build a model of this beast. It looks like there is a spotlight in front of the windshield and I would like to see this thing with a working spotlight.

--ShopShoe

 

[Sprocket]

There was the Lombard. I know I've seen video of a model of the Lombard, and they really were used. Village Press has a book "Logging with Steam" that has an article on the Lombard.

Doug

 

[RonGinger]

Chris Rueby has built a model steam Lombard and the plans have been serialized in LIVE STEAM magazine. Chris did a full, detailed build log on it on the MODELENGINEMAKER forum

 

[WisJim]

The Phoenix log hauler was build in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Somewhere I have more info on the company and the machines. I think that the local steam engine club might have one, and a since deceased carpenter friend of mine had built a model, using measurements he took from the real machine. I have no idea what may have happened to the one he built.
An online search for Phoenix log hauler brings up lots of info, some of it accurate.

 

[CraigLD]

This is really cool. In 1922, my grandfather was granted a patent for what he called a "motor-driven sled" (no. 1,422,751). It was based on a Model-T frame and consisted of a replaced rear axel with cogs that push the vehicle over ice ( it was mainly designed for the lakes of Minnesota where he was born and grew up)). My cousin has one of his original models he made for his patent application. I have always wanted to make a running model of his patent, maybe someday.

 

[SteamChEng]

This doesn't look like the same "Steam Centipede" in the original post, but here are a couple of videos of Phoenix log haulers running.

Phoenix Log Hauler, Wabeno WI Show 2010

Phoenix Log Hauler

They are both pretty interesting with the vertical engine arrangement. They look like they'd haul like mad!

On second viewing, I think the videos are of the same machine, taken at different times. Anyway, still cool!

 

[WisJim]

I found a bit about my friend Dan's model of the Phoenix log hauler.
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/1-6-scale-phoenix-log-hauler.20321/

 

[marvin hedberg]

I found a bit about my friend Dan's model of the Phoenix log hauler.
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/1-6-scale-phoenix-log-hauler.20321/

1/2 and 1/6th with the full size Wabeno Phoenix in the background.

 

[ddmckee54]

For years I've been collecting just about every picture of a Phoenix log hauler that I can find. I'm operating on the assumption that IF they built a prototype of the Centiped Road Locomotive, like the American Lumberman article implies, they wouldn't have wanted to totally reinvent the wheel.

I'm assuming that they started with something that they knew worked, the drive system from their log hauler, and then added a new frame, a new cab and a new boiler. The American Lumberman article gives a gallons of condensate recovered per gallon of fuel burned figure. That figure, along with the speeds and the other specifications listed, make me want to believe that they built at least one of these things. But if they did, why is this the ONLY picture, and this article the only reference that I can find? I know that these things would have been aimed at very much of a "niche" market. But you'd think some other construction magazine of the times would have covered it. If this article was from 1929, I could understand it, but not 1922. IF they built it, somebody would have come.

I have started working on drawings for the Centiped, actually started a them few years ago. Every once in a while I'll dust off the files and add a little more to them. I started with dimensions taken for similar parts of the log hauler drive train and then just assumed and guessed a HELLUVA lot. The American Lumberman article gave some general dimensions, enough for a sanity check at least. The worst part of it is, that I started drawing this in 2D DraftSight. Now I'm thinking it would be best to go 3D.

I've got to admit though, those are some of the oddest looking track links that I have ever seen. I know that the weight of the vehicle is transferred from the track link to the frame by the inner loop of roller chain, but why does there appear to be several inches of air space in the track link? I know it would give them more ground clearance, but I can think of less complex ways to do that - must be some other reason.

Don

 

[ddmckee54]

OK, I don't think that they EVER built this thing. I read through the American Lumberman article again, "ALL" of it this time. I think the last line of the article says it all.

I'm now convinced that the "Picture" was an artist's rendering of what the beast WOULD have looked like, and that all the performance figures listed in the article were at best wishful thinking.

That being said, I still what to build a model of the non-existent prototype. A steam powered Franken-Track would be SOOOO neat.

I did find a second reference with similar track links, on a patent application for a traction machine from 1914.

None of the Phoenix log hauler pictures that I've seen show this style of link, there might have been a good reason for that. In this design the actual grouser plate may have been bolted to the center support of the track link. A two part link would have been easier to cast. But from the drawing it looks like there would only have been a single line of bolts running across the grouser plate. As the link came around and the grouser plate made contact with the ground, especially frozen ground, that would have put a LOT of stress on those bolts. Odds are that they may have tried this design, found out that they were breaking a lot of bolts and/or track links, and changed the design to fix the problem. Nope, if/when I build my Franken-Track, it'll use this version of the Phoenix track system. No complicated and expensive multipart track link for this guy, just a simple one piece casting.

 

[marvin hedberg]

per your pic, the Phoenix tracks with the flat sprockets thru the grousers give resistance to side sliding.
dozer tracks with the sprockets in the rails(chain) with the grousers bolted on
will "skate" sideways down a frozen hill when traversing.

i'm waiting to see your model, it will be neat!!
it took me 2 years to build the 1/2 size and paid a boilermaker to build a 200psi certified boiler.

 

[ddmckee54]

marvin:

I'm wondering if those fancy-schmancy Phoenix tracks were an attempt to get around having to pay the license fees to Lombard for his design?

Don't hold your breath waiting for the model, I've been in the plottin'-n-conivin' stage on this thing for a couple of several years. Most of that time was trying to gather more information, because I really thought/hoped that Phoenix actually built this thing. I'm now starting to convince myself that they never actually built it. I'm looking at more or less designing it the way I would have put the pieces together. I'll start with the Phoenix log hauler drive train and work up from there.

I've looked at Winslow's patent applications and the way that he designed the boiler, I think that's going to be one of the easier parts of the model to build. That odd shaped box behind the cab in the original picture is the boiler. None of the boiler parts is that big so it won't require ginormous amounts of heat to silver solder. The mud drums and the steam manifold will be the biggest individual parts, at the most they'll be 3/4" tube. It will unfortunately require a boat-load of unions - because that's how the modular sections attach to the mud-drums and the steam manifold. But this does allow you to build and test the modular sections before assembling them into a boiler. I hope this boiler design worked, and that Winslow made a butt-load of money off it - because I think it's genius.

Don

 

[marvin hedberg]

" I hope this boiler design worked, and that Winslow made a butt-load of money off it - because I think it's genius."

Don
[/QUOTE]
Don, do you have the links to Winslow's boiler?
thanks, Marv

 

[MIKE4444]

EX

 

[ddmckee54]

marvin:

I seem to have lost my link to the patent application, but I may have found an even better link. This is a link to the September 1922 edition of the Journal of the Society of Automotive Engineers, Volume XI. Starting on page 265 is an article on the "Winslow Automotive boiler". I haven't read the article yet, but it looks promising, Winslow Boiler

I know that there was a thread, I think in SmokStak - maybe someplace else, on the Centiped. That's what started this trip down the rabbit hole. If I remember correctly, in that thread were images of one of the patent applications.


This is the image I have of the patent, I know that I have seen other images besides this one gives a good idea of the entire layout. If I remember correctly, I was able to track it down from the date?

Yell JACKPOT, or Yahtzee, or whatever floats your boat - I found the patent link. Here's the link to the patent documentation. Winslow Automotive Boiler patent The application was filed in May 1921, so there's a very good chance that this WOULD have been the boiler used, IF they would have built the Phoenix Steam Centiped.

Don

 

[marvin hedberg]

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1603500A/en?oq=1603500

 

[WisJim]

A Phoenix log hauler is scheduled to be at the Pioneer Days engine show at Eau Claire Wisconsin, August 12-14, 2022.