India Tools

[Richard Hed]

I'm thimking that since we all know about or buy Chinese stuff which has it's various qualities, quantities and low price, that India being a competitor of China (apparently don't get along very well and I thimk the Indians have less impulse to conquer the world by military means), that maybe we could talk about what we find out about Indian tools. I only got this small tool last week (About Aug. 15, 2020) but have gotten a few other things from them. I have been looking at their lathes, they look like monsters from the 1850s but "looks" may be only cosmetic. ONe neveer knows lest they test it, check it, use it. Anyway, the lathes LOOK unsophisticated which means NOTHING. I've seen amazing utub vids in which Indians are doing very nice work with simple tools--they are definitely bootstrapping themselves and anyone who helps themselves (rather than expecting a handout), I personally am willing to also help if I can.

I ordered a milling attachment from India a couple weeks ago. It arrived today (Aug 15, 2020) . Here is my report:

Immediately upon opening the package, I cut my finger, just a little cut--I hope it doesn't have this week's virus flavor. The thing seems to have been well ground on the important surfaces but they must not know about "Break All Edges". On all the ground edges they are sharp as a razor. No prob, I can fix that. Inside the slots, there is a single spot of weld spatter. No prob, I can fix that. Upon opening the package I found that the handle screwed directly onto the screw but the end of the screw was drilled out and it broke off. There is a lot of slop, about a 1/16" Between the top of the screw head and mount. (I workt today 14 hours, so excuse me if I get the words wrong or have horrible mispellinjgs), That could be a problem but probably fixable with a simple washer.

What I am particularly impressed with is the tightness of the dovetails and the smoothness of operation. That proves, so far, to be deliscious. I took it apart, naturally, and woe unto those who LOOK! (It's like "Don't tell, don't ask, don't look!) My god, what a crappy looking bundle of work! But it's all cosmetic, the edge of one way looks like a truck hit it. The gib screw holes in the side are all over the place like a child did it at play with hand drill--again, cosmetic. The hole thru the slide section which the screw goes thru is about 8deg to the side--that is probably cosmetic but then those of us who have been arguing trig know that it will create a small difference between reality and what the dial says. Well, measure, measur, measure and hopefully it will not matter. The corners of the sliding bed has been obviously dropt with both bottom corners smushed about 3/32". This probably means the metal is rather soft, but that just means take it easy with the thing and don't drop it, hit it with a mill end, etc. The ways, altho' well ground, have a couple tiny divits and one spot looks like a weld fill which has been ground over. The casting marks look like casting marks. I do not know yet if the bottom is square with the bed.

I'll make some measurements and tests when I gets the chance in a couple weeks. I will also notify the sender that the screw was broken to see what they will do. I can easily remake that unless the threads are some godawful type from the moon. My assessment so far: It's a buy--I'd buy it again. I thimk I paid 120 odd $$. The total with tax and shipping was 153$. In comparison to a China made 2D vise that cost 60$, which I realize is incredibly cheap, The India made, I thimk, is the better deal, certainly better quality. the Chinese Cheapo has crappy ways, one end is incredibly tight (not the gib tho') and the other end is very loose. It's dials are seriously something from the moon.

Ah, got a day off, (Aug 17) will take photos of this and take it apart, check the angle, etc. This milling attachment apparently is made for a Myford. Well, I'm a gonna makes it fits my Enco.

If anyone else has any experience with Indian equipment, tools, etc. I would very much be interested in knowing about any critiques you have.

 

[TonyM]

I generalise but having worked in India for a year commissioning an automotive hose factory I found them to be lovely people who's promises are like piecrust. They are great improvisors who can make almost anything from a pile of scrap. They just don't have any idea of quality and yet can skillfully make the most intricate '' One offs''
I unwittingly bought a vertical slide from India. It was worse than you could imagine. It took an age to get though customs so I decided to keep it and make it workable. I left the seller with negative feedback including photos and a video and he sent me some ''good quality'' adjustable reamers in way of compensation. They have been consigned to the bin.
I did repair the slide and make it usable and am happy with the end result but it was two full days of work to get it to that stage. Pics 6 and 7 were to illustrate that the two sliding surfaces were not on the same plane. Also they were just rough machined..

 

[Richard Hed]

I generalise but having worked in India for a year commissioning an automotive hose factory I found them to be lovely people who's promises are like piecrust. They are great improvisors who can make almost anything from a pile of scrap. They just don't have any idea of quality and yet can skillfully make the most intricate '' One offs''
I unwittingly bought a vertical slide from India. It was worse than you could imagine. It took an age to get though customs so I decided to keep it and make it workable. I left the seller with negative feedback including photos and a video and he sent me some ''good quality'' adjustable reamers in way of compensation. They have been consigned to the bin.
I did repair the slide and make it usable and am happy with the end result but it was two full days of work to get it to that stage. Pics 6 and 7 were to illustrate that the two sliding surfaces were not on the same plane. Also they were just rough machined..

Thanx for those photos and the relevant info you shared. Here are the photos I took:

 

[Richard Hed]

In the first photo you will see the hole thru the body is off center--the other side is even worse, probably done with a homemade drill press. The nut is off center too--in my opinion both these jobs are inexcusable. the hole thru the middle for the acme screw is more or less cosmetic, I hope. The nut, being off center presents a fixable problem in that it needs to be centered for the slots on the lathe compound. This is fixable too, my prob is just "how can somebody do such poor work?" I thimk a person with a file could do a better job. They don't know what a center punch is? Their drill press is so wobbly that it starts off center???? Hmmm. Even so, this is fixable.

The third photo shows the poor locating of the grub screws on the gib. Just cosmetic.

fourth photo--Shows a relatively quality grinding job. This angle is very well done and as far as I can tell (only chekt it with a machinists square) is perfect, both sides. A bit of discolorization. Of course, this is probably the most important part and I approve.

The next photo shows the milling marks and I doesn't know quite what to thimk of this as the mating part has the surface ground. The two parts slide wonderfully smoothly and are very tight. The dovetail seems to be ground on the inside but not the flat part.

The sixth photo shows the slots which seem to be fine. This part is very soft metal, most likely mild steel. I filed the corner marks from being dropt and the edges which were very easy and soft.

The next photo just shows the bottom. The next two show the corners after dropping and the broken screw shaft along with the general construction.

The last photo shows the truck wreck at the edge of the dovetail This is not seen and doesn't affect the operation but still it's a bit unsettling to those of us who are more familiar with better workmanship.

In the third photo, look at the bottom way and you will see some little divits and something that looks like a weld fill that was ground over.

Next, I will fix the T-slot nuts and the two dowel pins to fit my Enco and I will report back then.

 

[goldstar31]

Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have had to pay £120.

 

[Richard Hed]

Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have had to pay £120.

Recently? Or many years passed? Was that when pound was strong?

 

[ACHiPo]

I bought a 5MT test bar off eBay, and was delighted at the quality for the price (~$100 delivered within a week from India to CA in a nice-ish wooden box). I laid it on my surface plate and back-lit it--the light was pretty uniform with maybe a skosh more light in the center. I then put it on vee blocks (Chinese imports--definitely not B&S) and measured 0.0002" difference between the shaft on the vee block and mid-span, which seems decent and within specs. Grinding quality on the taper is good to excellent.

A few weeks later I bought a die holder for the tailstock (3MT) off eBay and it turned out to be from the same company. Again fast, reasonable shipping. Quality of the ground bits was very good. Knurling and edges could use some refinement.

 

[Hrcoleman66]

My India made 4" Rotary Table (Purchased on Ebay) is woeful. It arrived damaged and barely useable. The Clamping Set that came with it are for a larger t-slot size, so went in the bin. I use it very occasionally when I have no other alternative.

Cheers,

Hugh

 

[Richard Hed]

I bought a 5MT test bar off eBay, and was delighted at the quality for the price (~$100 delivered within a week from India to CA in a nice-ish wooden box). I laid it on my surface plate and back-lit it--the light was pretty uniform with maybe a skosh more light in the center. I then put it on vee blocks (Chinese imports--definitely not B&S) and measured 0.0002" difference between the shaft on the vee block and mid-span, which seems decent and within specs. Grinding quality on the taper is good to excellent.

A few weeks later I bought a die holder for the tailstock (3MT) off eBay and it turned out to be from the same company. Again fast, reasonable shipping. Quality of the ground bits was very good. Knurling and edges could use some refinement.

That's sort of the way I see it--the important parts are great (except for being soft metal) but the rest needs a bit of cleanup. I trimmed the sides of the sharp edges and will work on the pins and T-nuts when I gets a chance.

 

[Richard Hed]

My India made 4" Rotary Table (Purchased on Ebay) is woeful. It arrived damaged and barely useable. The Clamping Set that came with it are for a larger t-slot size, so went in the bin. I use it very occasionally when I have no other alternative.

Cheers,

Hugh

When did this happen? did you let them know the condition? That really sux. I am hoping that like all the developing countries, or the ones that have already developed (Japan, Korea, Taiwan) that started out with pert near krap, but kept going and started doing better work and better quality, Am hoping the same for India. I don't want to support China anymore, but I will for the foreseeable future--just looking for alternatives.

PS. I'm wondering if those dinosaur looking lathes they have in India are better than they look or as bad as they look.

 

[goldstar31]

Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have had to pay £120.

Today's quoted price. How about a comparison

As for Indians being untrustworthy, I've been connected with them from becoming a Goldstar-- in 1948.
It's membership of a most prestigious Royal Air Force Squadron which boasts ' In Caele, Indicus Primus' or 'First in the Indian Skies' . Surprising I have lots of Indian friends. All highly qualified- doctors, dentists, engineers- professional ones and so on. Even in business- donkey's years ago, I could always get money out of them- when other's had problems. But then it 'money' was my job- not trying to save a quick buck--- and getting it oh so wrong.

 

[motmaluk]

I have bought a small rotary table and several sets of taps and dies from Indian companies and have been very pleased with the quality. I have also bought two motorcycle tanks from them and the workmanship was impressive. There are probably good and bad companies like everywhere.

 

[Jasonb]

Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have had to pay £120.

Goldstar where are you buying the vertical slide from, Myford have them listed as £260?
https://www.myford.co.uk/acatalog/Vertical-Slides.html
Really it all comes down to what you pay be it from India or China. At the bottom end e-bay direct from source or the likes of Banggood you don't really know what you are going to get but more likely lowest quality from a small factory doing cheap copies. If you buy from one of the hobby suppliers you will pay more but they will have used a factory that is known to make to a certain quality having found the ones that can produce to a reasonable level at the right price bracket. You could also go to industrial tool suppliers and pay a lot more for items from the same countries that are even better quality. It comes down to what you pay.

I have a few Soba branded items including a 6" rotary table and it all works fine.

 

[IanN]

Today's quoted price. How about a comparison

As for Indians being untrustworthy, I've been connected with them from becoming a Goldstar-- in 1948.
It's membership of a most prestigious Royal Air Force Squadron which boasts ' In Caele, Indicus' or 'First in the Indian SSkies' . Surprising I have lots of Indian friends. All highly qualified- doctors, dentists, engineers- professional ones and so on. Even in business- donkey's years ago, I could always get money out of them- when other's had problems. But then it 'money' was my job- not trying to save a quick buck--- and getting it oh so wrong.

Hi,

I agree with Norman. Just like China, India will willingly make you whatever you want. If you want cheap, low quality rubbish, they will be only too pleased to supply you with cheap, low quality rubbish. But remember that China also manufacture jet fighter aircraft and they are the worlds largest manufacturer of supercomputers by a massive margin. The problem is that if you want their high quality stuff it stops being cheap

The aircraft situation shows perfectly the difference in the approach that used to be followed by China and India. Both nations manufactured aircraft but “bought in” the engines. When the USSR collapsed and engine maintenance became an issue, India sent out teams to scour the world and buy up stockpiles of spare parts while China searched out the engineers, offered them good jobs, good salaries (and paid them on time) and lovely, well equipped and well funded research establishments and factories to work in.

India has realised their mistake and are working hard to correct the situation, and they have the determination, the will and the work ethic to succeed in their quest.

Ian

 

[skarven]

My Indian 5MK test bar amazingly has three distinctly different axes. One for the tapered part, one for the cylindrical part and one for the two centre holes on the ends. I can see no use for it, and I wonder how they managed to make it like that!

 

[STEVEJ]

There is no substitute for buying quality. Let me be the first to say that if you buy cheap you buy twice.

 

[goldstar31]

Goldstar where are you buying the vertical slide from, Myford have them listed as £260?
https://www.myford.co.uk/acatalog/Vertical-Slides.html

I priced the fixed slide one from RDG Tools.
OK

I have one bought from the days when Myford was Myford and my other one is probably 'Perfecto' as everyone in the good old days 'bought in'.
Whatever is the price- and the difference may be the fixed and swivel one but frankly who cares the guy got paid rubbish money for rubbish stuff. Many of us will agree with that. Others will come onto this excellent site- finding a place to moan- and bugger off again to annoy someone else.

There is an English expression called 'Man of Straw' and I do wish that people were better than that.

Norman

 

[goldstar31]

There is no substitute for buying quality. Let me be the first to say that if you buy cheap you buy twice.

Yes. Some months ago I quoted the great John Ruskin on Price. Yes- he was the Ruskin University bloke.

 

[Peter Murphy]

My India made 4" Rotary Table (Purchased on Ebay) is woeful. It arrived damaged and barely useable. The Clamping Set that came with it are for a larger t-slot size, so went in the bin. I use it very occasionally when I have no other alternative.

Cheers,

Hugh

Hi Hugh,
Mine was the same rubbish, sheared the pin off for the table gear 1st time I used it as a rotary milling table, milling an arc. I finished the job by using a bar to turn it as I was only milling some thin aluminium. When I pulled it apart I found the gear was not round & therefore was stripping the teeth on one side. I eventually replaced it with a Vertex (Taiwanese), much better.
India need to get their act together as there is an opportunity to take alot of China's business.
Cheers,
Peter from Australia

 

[goldstar31]

Hi Hugh,
Mine was the same rubbish, sheared the pin off for the table gear 1st time I used it as a rotary milling table, milling an arc. I finished the job by using a bar to turn it as I was only milling some thin aluminium. When I pulled it apart I found the gear was not round & therefore was stripping the teeth on one side. I eventually replaced it with a Vertex (Taiwanese), much better.
India need to get their act together as there is an opportunity to take alot of China's business.
Cheers,
Peter from Australia

I suppose that most 'advanced' cuntries have something similar to the British 'Sale of Goods Act' and deals with things like goods not being of 'Merchantable quality'. Yes, instead of being an 'engineer'. I did Commercial Studies.

So why wasn't the seller taken to task for his responsibility un the unsatisfactory sale?