Gingery metal shaper in cast iron?

[HMEL]

I am keen to see these drawings also.
It sounds like it is a viable option to the Gingery or Acto machines.
Thanks for your effort to copy these.

IF I have done this correctly you should have a copy of the four design sheets for the Pootatuck shaper design. My computer will not let me check these before I send them. If not let me know and I will try again. Actually I will post them and then check the quality.

 

[HMEL]

Ah, I understand now. I was thinking they might have been from a British company. Those are commonly back in production for short periods. That wouldn't be the case for drawings from an American Co. When they go out of business over here, they destroy everything and scrap all their equipment. If these drawings are that old, they may be from before or during WWII. I seriously doubt you will have any copyright issues. I think 50 years is the limit unless someone who owns them takes action to copyright them longer. Probably did not happen in this case. If you read about the Logan Lathe Company, the original family managed to recover the firm, as the prior holder (Houdaille) went out of business and there was no effort to maintain the copyright. They stepped in and reclaimed their business, and it is now being run by the grandson of the original founder.
I'd be very curious to see those drawings.

Ah, I understand now. I was thinking they might have been from a British company. Those are commonly back in production for short periods. That wouldn't be the case for drawings from an American Co. When they go out of business over here, they destroy everything and scrap all their equipment. If these drawings are that old, they may be from before or during WWII. I seriously doubt you will have any copyright issues. I think 50 years is the limit unless someone who owns them takes action to copyright them longer. Probably did not happen in this case. If you read about the Logan Lathe Company, the original family managed to recover the firm, as the prior holder (Houdaille) went out of business and there was no effort to maintain the copyright. They stepped in and reclaimed their business, and it is now being run by the grandson of the original founder.
I'd be very curious to see those drawings.

Ok Here are the drawings for the Pootatuck Shaper Drawings "an interesting name. I think three people have asked for them. I hope I find them all.

 

[HMEL]

I would like to see them too. I want to have choice if and when I get room for such a thing. In the mean time, I might be able to design something even better having as many drawings as possible. I actualy had a gigantic shaper at one time but never managed to use it, believing at the time that it was just a huge boat anchor and that a mill would do everythign a shaper could do. That may or may not be true, however.

Ok here are the plans. There are four pages and detail enough to fabricate them. This will be the third posting, I suppose one would do it but this way I get the ones who asked to have them. I believe this thing could be fabricated without castings and possibly improved and if one wanted to scale it up. Maybe someone can actually build it. Be better then a file sitting in my desk. Take Care

 

[GreenTwin]

The problem with building a shaper is the same as building a lathe.
It is cheaper to buy a quality used lathe than build your own.
You can build your own lathe for less money, with probably a tradeoff in quality and accuracy.

Ditto with a shaper.
You can by used shapers probably cheaper than you can make one, although that small hand-driven shaper I think could be inexpensively built.

One person said "I want to build my own equipment, and learn how to build equipment in the process", and so in that case building your own lathe or shaper would make sense, from a learning standpoint.

Here are some on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363614459661?hash=item54a91c570d:g:YvAAAOSwOf9hiVc5
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324962004349?hash=item4ba93ead7d:g:G~kAAOSw9hlhyI0r
Hand Model:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293738201764?hash=item44642942a4:g:KRAAAOSwXO5fYlh-
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185213399931?hash=item2b1f94337b:g:gc0AAOSw9p5ht7lT
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234360182560?hash=item3690f49720:g:wQMAAOSwSLlh0PTU
,

 

[KellisRJ]

The problem with building a shaper is the same as building a lathe.
It is cheaper to buy a quality used lathe than build your own.
You can build your own lathe for less money, with probably a tradeoff in quality and accuracy.

Ditto with a shaper.
You can by used shapers probably cheaper than you can make one, although that small hand-driven shaper I think could be inexpensively built.

One person said "I want to build my own equipment, and learn how to build equipment in the process", and so in that case building your own lathe or shaper would make sense, from a learning standpoint.

They also turn up on FaceBook Marketplace. I'm sitting on my hands over an Atlas that;s just over the distance I can make time for right now.
Ron

 

[moose4621]

IF I have done this correctly you should have a copy of the four design sheets for the Pootatuck shaper design. My computer will not let me check these before I send them. If not let me know and I will try again. Actually I will post them and then check the quality.

Awesome! Thank you.
Lots to paw over there.
Looks like a great project.

 

[William May]

I have my own iron foundry, and so I can cast it myself.

Good for you! You are very fortunate!

 

[awake]

Very interesting indeed. Unfortunately it ties up one's lathe.

Easy enough to put a motor on it instead of using the lathe - of course, one will need to use some gearing or jack shaft arrangement to get the speed down to what is needed for a shaper.

 

[awake]

I am not a big fan of the welded approach. The tension within a structure can be like a wound up spring in storage and unless you can normalize the entire finished component, there is likely to be movement over time. I dont have the capacity to bring a part the size of a shaper ram or lathe bed up to critical temp and hold it there for soaking. That would require a very big furnace.
For me, I think casting or cold fastened structures are to my mind, more suitable.

I know that weldments can create a lot of stress and move ... but even so, I have had good success using weldments of larger dimension material (e.g., 1" thick). GreenTwin or others, how much if any would you expect a cast iron part to move as it seasons?

 

[Richard Hed]

I know that weldments can create a lot of stress and move ... but even so, I have had good success using weldments of larger dimension material (e.g., 1" thick). GreenTwin or others, how much if any would you expect a cast iron part to move as it seasons?

Generally, if one is making something like a lathe, one wants it to use (or to sell), In that case, one wants to get it done and start using it. However, if one has lots of wait time, it could be possible to weld the thing together, wait a considerable time and then mill it or scrape it or whatever one is going to do to keep it straight. As for myself, I would just weld it together not expecting it to be perfect, get it as straight as possible and begin using it, then check it often and adjust or scrape or whatever would be needed.

I certainly would not expect a homemade lathe to be a "Benton" of lathes. Years ago in Yakama, Wa, USA, there was a company making lathes. I never got to see their process but I thimpfk they welded at least some parts together. Which makes me thimpfk maybe one could cast certain parts and add it to welded steel parts. I don't know if that company is still in business, my guess is the Chinese stuff killt them.

 

[Poppy Ott]

Generally, if one is making something like a lathe, one wants it to use (or to sell), In that case, one wants to get it done and start using it. However, if one has lots of wait time, it could be possible to weld the thing together, wait a considerable time and then mill it or scrape it or whatever one is going to do to keep it straight. As for myself, I would just weld it together not expecting it to be perfect, get it as straight as possible and begin using it, then check it often and adjust or scrape or whatever would be needed.

I certainly would not expect a homemade lathe to be a "Benton" of lathes. Years ago in Yakama, Wa, USA, there was a company making lathes. I never got to see their process but I thimpfk they welded at least some parts together. Which makes me thimpfk maybe one could cast certain parts and add it to welded steel parts. I don't know if that company is still in business, my guess is the Chinese stuff killt them.

On reading your comment about lathes being made in Yakima intrigued me (Igrew in in Spokane) so I did some sleuthing. The following was copied from practical machinist.com :


The McIlvaney was last produced in Yakima Wa. sometime in the late 1970s.
An owner of one told me that McIlvaney was at one time a Monarch employee. The lathes were close to Monarch in appearance.
As Joe said, the lathes were a little lighter in construction as compared to monarch.
The one that is here in Walla Walla may have been custom ordered by Weber machine as it has a fairly large spindle hole and 4 jaw chucks on each end of the spindle, sort of a mini oilfield lathe with 18" swing and 10ft bed.

 

[HMEL]

The problem with building a shaper is the same as building a lathe.
It is cheaper to buy a quality used lathe than build your own.
You can build your own lathe for less money, with probably a tradeoff in quality and accuracy.

Ditto with a shaper.
You can by used shapers probably cheaper than you can make one, although that small hand-driven shaper I think could be inexpensively built.

One person said "I want to build my own equipment, and learn how to build equipment in the process", and so in that case building your own lathe or shaper would make sense, from a learning standpoint.

Here are some on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363614459661?hash=item54a91c570d:g:YvAAAOSwOf9hiVc5
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324962004349?hash=item4ba93ead7d:g:G~kAAOSw9hlhyI0r
Hand Model:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293738201764?hash=item44642942a4:g:KRAAAOSwXO5fYlh-
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185213399931?hash=item2b1f94337b:g:gc0AAOSw9p5ht7lT
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234360182560?hash=item3690f49720:g:wQMAAOSwSLlh0PTU
,

I tend to agree that given the right timing and right price and right shipping distance its possible to acquire a used lathe or shaper. Where we differ is that with care a one off build can be built with great accuracy. Some of the projects on this forum sort of demonstrate that. A few years ago I would not have said that. The use of CNC and the materials and products now available along with three dimensional software makes it possible to do that. But it takes two skills. Understanding what the machine is to do and the tolerance you want it to achieve and patience for the time it will take.

 

[a41capt]

This was listed in the used machinist tools group on Facebook. I have no connection to the seller but thought it might be of interest

John W

 

[abby]

I have owned both Perfecto and Adept hand shapers , these machines were popular in the days before milling machines and cutters became readily available at affordable prices. I understand that obtaining small used machinery suitable for model engineering is more difficult in the US than in the UK but I have the opinion that although these shapers can be theraputic to use give me a motorised milling machine any day.
The idea of building ones own workshop machines is great in theory and if machines are your interest rather than models that is fair enough but you need accurate machines to make machines , and when you have built your lathe you still need chucks.
Dan.

 

[Richard Hed]

I have owned both Perfecto and Adept hand shapers , these machines were popular in the days before milling machines and cutters became readily available at affordable prices. I understand that obtaining small used machinery suitable for model engineering is more difficult in the US than in the UK but I have the opinion that although these shapers can be theraputic to use give me a motorised milling machine any day.
The idea of building ones own workshop machines is great in theory and if machines are your interest rather than models that is fair enough but you need accurate machines to make machines , and when you have built your lathe you still need chucks.
Dan.

This is true. I myself have enough $$ since I workt over the summer to buy tools, however, some younger peeps really don't have all that much moolah. Also since they are younger, they have much less experience. This makes it a good idea to make one's own stuff. Unfortunately most of us on this forum are old coots (you--not me) with enough sense to have something to do in our retirement. Personally, I encourage making one's own tools, mostly because I grew up (surprized you on that one, didn't I?) with very little $$ and now am such a cheapskate (and still very little $$ unless I am actually working) that I am still making my own tools when it might be easier just to buy them. Presently working on ER collets for a D5 spindle nose.

 

[ajoeiam]

snip
This was listed in the used machinist tools group on Facebook. I have no connection to the seller but thought it might be of interest

John W

Interesting mr John.
One major problem - - - - I tried a hiatus from crackbook over a year ago (and wasn't on overly much even at that point) and found that mostly I didn't notice that I wasn't on. There likely are a few things that might be useful but I get uncomfortable feeding that ravenous pocket of mr z's.

It seems that most have forgotten any other option that existed pre-crackbook as well.

Oh well - - - I will survive also this.

 

[a41capt]

Interesting mr John.
One major problem - - - - I tried a hiatus from crackbook over a year ago (and wasn't on overly much even at that point) and found that mostly I didn't notice that I wasn't on. There likely are a few things that might be useful but I get uncomfortable feeding that ravenous pocket of mr z's.

It seems that most have forgotten any other option that existed pre-crackbook as well.

Oh well - - - I will survive also this.

Shipping and/or pickup might be a bit of a problem for you also, unless you were looking for a trip to sunny California to escape the Minnesota winter!

John W

 

[ajoeiam]

Shipping and/or pickup might be a bit of a problem for you also, unless you were looking for a trip to sunny California to escape the Minnesota winter!

John W

Shipping can often be found - - - reasonable is getting much much harder.
That will change in a while I think but - - -

(Why would I want to escape winter?)

 

[KellisRJ]

Spotted this looking for something else Projects in Metal Magazine article collection

After an eight year break, the Projects series returned with Projects Eight, reprinting issues from 1997 through 2000. Headlined by Marsh Collins' "Building Your Own Shaper" article and Walter B. Mueller's "Quorn Tool and Cutter Grinder" article, Projects Eight features 19 Technique Articles, 10 Lathe Accessories, 5 Milling and Drilling Machine Accessories, 15 Shop Improvement Projects, and 2 Hobby Projects.

Hardbound. 200 pages.

$45 USD not cheap!

 

[Bentwings]

One could also weld this together. there is an example of a student on utoob who indeed, built his own from his own design. If I were to do this, I would try welding this part together but try to find some cast iron strips to make the ways with, bolt them on. I thimpfks it would be very strong yet less likely to break.

The lablond toolroom lathe we had years ago had bolt on ground carriage and cross slide ways we had them redone and carefully trimmed. That big old lathe would machine every bit as well as the hardinge tool room precision lathe. Both were like having grinders capable of machining or lathes capable of grinding. The lablond had a lot more power but sooooo smooth running. I’d say go for it even if you have to send the ways out for grinding I’ve not done scraping so I can’t help there . Our 10” lathe has bolt on ways but not perfectly machined. Doesn’t track as well as I’d like either. If I could get out to the shop more often I’d fix it but it’s 65 miles. Each way so I make the most of my trips. Now that gas is rediculous it’s an expensive day for me. I too hated apt living for the same reason .
byron