First Lathe questions

[Mac McCaskie]

I'm considering getting my first metal lathe and being a rather accomplished woodworker I'm hoping that idea won't be a total disaster. My first goal was to build some Stewart steam engines, then I started looking around and started drooling over some challenger V-8's. I've read a few threads on choosing your first lathe/mill and have gotten a bit confused on some fine points.

I read both get the biggest you can buy with a few dissenters suggesting start humbly. So I've currently worked myself up to either the Grizzly G4000 9" x 19" or [URL='https://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Benchtop-Metal-Lathe/G0602']G0602 10" x 22" plus they snuck in the [URL='https://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Benchtop-Metal-Lathe-with-DRO/G0602Z']G0602Z 10" x 22" Benchtop Metal Lathe with DRO.[/URL][/URL]

I assume I'll need to modify whatever I get to increase accuracy when I move up to the V-8, do any of these machines work that way?

What is your opinion about what to start with?

Finally: Is having DRO really all that great to start with? Will DRO hinder or enhance the learning process? I know I can add DRO later, so why to start with? Is it more important on the Mill?

Note: the Grizzly warehouse is only 2 1/2 hours away.

thanks and sorry for so many questions on one post.

mac

 

[bluejets]

I assume I'll need to modify whatever I get to increase accuracy when I move up to the V-8

Machining accuracy is generally down to the operator and his knowing the capability of the machine.
I did choose a Myford lathe originally as I knew it's level of quality and I could afford it at the time.
Also it fitted the size of machining jobs I had in mind for the future.

As for the mill, went with a Taiwan model ( not Chinese, there is a difference) as that was what I could afford.
Working within the machine tolerances is, as I said, up to the operator.

DRO is a great thing especially on the mill. I built my first DRO and have been using it successfully for many years.
It had one inherent problem because of the way it was set to measure from the leadscrew which was fine BUT one had to remember the backlash.
Just finished changing over to an el cheapo Chinese DRO for that reason, so it now tracks the bed movement.
Only thing to watch is vibration getting through to the measuring head causing fluctuating readings.

These are just my opinion, others will have different views no doubt.

 

[Rudy from Norway]

Mac, I believe you already have your sights on the right target. I got my first lathe a couple of years ago. A generic Chinese 10x20. Believe it is the same as Grizzly G0602 (apart from mine has a gear box). Bought directly from China without any brand tag it costs the half. Right out of the box it can do good work. However, there are so many simple and low-cost mods you can do to such machines to improve the accuracy and general functionality. A little searching on the subject will give you an overwhelming amount of ideas. For me this has been a part of the hobby. Improving and putting my personal touch on my machines. However, as bluejets also say, the result is 90% dependent on the operator anyway. You must learn to plan the operation and setup ahead. If this is done right, you will get superb accuracy almost regardless of the lathe condition.
I changed to a better chuck and added a quick-change tool post and DRO. The rest is a matter of taking it apart, inspecting, adjusting, cleaning up, lapping and small improvements.
If you can afford, of cause go for the high-quality brands, but you will have no problems what so ever in the model engineering business with the options you mentioned. I made my first Stuart 10V (a build thread in this forum) with grate success (if I may say so my selves). The key to success is the setup.
As for DRO? Can’t think of doing anything without it. Especially on the mill. Easy to install.

Rudy

 

[Lloyd-ss]

Hi Mac,
I have a Grizzly 0602 that I bought in 2008. It has hundreds of hours on it and honestly, sometimes when I am trying to get down to less than a thou, it will put a smile on my face. And like Rudy said, if you know your machine, it can make you happy.
I consider the 0602 a great value for the money. A couple of things I don't like which aren't a problem with the machine are having to manually change the belt for RPM change. That makes me often use less-than-optimuum RPMs, but I don't consider that a serious issue. The other is the manual gear change for thread cutting. Its something I don't like to do, but honestly, it only takes 2 minutes (and really greasy fingers!). I made a crank handle that fits into the outboard end of spindle and often if I am threading to a shoulder, I will just hand crank to avoid the pucker factor.
The tooling pkg that came with the lathe was nice. The 4 jaw is absolutely needed when you need concentricity of less than .001" or .002 when flipping a part around. The steady rest is needed if you have parts that are too big in dia to slip into the 1" spindle bore. However, the deep jaws of the 4 jaw will handle some pretty long pieces all by themselves.
I took the carriage apart early on to clean it up and reduce some of the clearances. That helped accuracy and chatter and taught me about the lathe. Its time to do that again.
When I bought the lathe, I was a novice (still am, kinda, LOL) and asking the sales person (retired machinist) at the Grizzly Williamsport store about taking the lathe apart to adjust and accurize and clean-up, etc. Was that OK? He very bluntly told me, "If you don't like to do that sort of thing, you shouldn't be buying a lathe." He also told me that the mill i was buying at the same time was too small for what I wanted to do with it. He was right on both counts.

Here, I will bare my soul with my messy house keeping, but wanted to show the lathe mounted on an old metal desk. The knee hole is now filled with drawers. There is reinforcing metal and 3/4" plywood that you can't see. The base on the floor is a box made out of 2x6's. The top is the most important part in my opinion. It is a piece of used solid core exterior door. It is 36" x 65" x 1-3/4" thick.

 

[Rongee]

Hi Mac,
I have a Grizzly 0602 that I bought in 2008. It has hundreds of hours on it and honestly, sometimes when I am trying to get down to less than a thou, it will put a smile on my face. And like Rudy said, if you know your machine, it can make you happy.
I consider the 0602 a great value for the money. A couple of things I don't like which aren't a problem with the machine are having to manually change the belt for RPM change. That makes me often use less-than-optimuum RPMs, but I don't consider that a serious issue. The other is the manual gear change for thread cutting. Its something I don't like to do, but honestly, it only takes 2 minutes (and really greasy fingers!). I made a crank handle that fits into the outboard end of spindle and often if I am threading to a shoulder, I will just hand crank to avoid the pucker factor.
The tooling pkg that came with the lathe was nice. The 4 jaw is absolutely needed when you need concentricity of less than .001" or .002 when flipping a part around. The steady rest is needed if you have parts that are too big in dia to slip into the 1" spindle bore. However, the deep jaws of the 4 jaw will handle some pretty long pieces all by themselves.
I took the carriage apart early on to clean it up and reduce some of the clearances. That helped accuracy and chatter and taught me about the lathe. Its time to do that again.
When I bought the lathe, I was a novice (still am, kinda, LOL) and asking the sales person (retired machinist) at the Grizzly Williamsport store about taking the lathe apart to adjust and accurize and clean-up, etc. Was that OK? He very bluntly told me, "If you don't like to do that sort of thing, you shouldn't be buying a lathe." He also told me that the mill i was buying at the same time was too small for what I wanted to do with it. He was right on both counts.

Here, I will bare my soul with my messy house keeping, but wanted to show the lathe mounted on an old metal desk. The knee hole is now filled with drawers. There is reinforcing metal and 3/4" plywood that you can't see. The base on the floor is a box made out of 2x6's. The top is the most important part in my opinion. It is a piece of used solid core exterior door. It is 36" x 65" x 1-3/4" thick.

View attachment 108346

Hi,

Seems like I am a similar boat as Mac. Woodworker, adding metal working, or trying to. After spending several hours with "ThatLazyMachinist" Youtube videos to get the lay of the land a bit, I've kind of ended up in the same place. I started thinking of getting some Sherline equipment, but now I'm thinking something a little bit larger may be better, or different, or something. I am perfectly happy with the prospect of breaking down a lathe to clean up, tune, improve (working on rewiring a telescope mount right now, and may get to the gearing eventually), and so was kind of intrigued by the comment of getting a metal lathe direct from China and saving some money that way. Is that a "shop on ebay" kind of thing? There's a website called "alibaba" that has a ton of direct from China machines, but not sure if that's a source to look at. Can you guys expound on that a bit?

Second question. So, if I'm looking at something about this size for a lathe, is there a size of milling machine that would be sort of a "good match" in terms of both fitting the same kinds of projects?

I've only been a member here for a short period of time, but really enjoying and appreciating the advice and knowledge that everyone has been so willing to share. 64 days until retirement from my day job. Turned 68 a few weeks ago. Seems like a good time to get back to playing with toys.

Thanks and have a good day.

Ron

 

[Lloyd-ss]

Ron, i turned 68 a few weeks ago & was an avid woodworker for years. I don't miss the dust at all, but watch out for tracking metal chips thru house. Bad news. I have a few thoughts on a complimentary mill but am in the garden & will answer shortly.

 

[Mac McCaskie]

Thanks all, I'm a bit behind some of you being 61. Retirement is so close...

Good advice from everyone, now I know I'm in the right part of the store. The metal desk is a good idea, I had a job once where I was begging people to take them away, I didn't even take one.

I'll search alibaba later tonight, but the drive down to Springfield is nice this time of year and I already have some nice tools from Grizzly (table saw, band saw, shaper, etc) I've had good luck with. I'm too am mill shopping. Some reviewers have badmouthed tilting heads as not useful and can drift out of plumb, or is that out of square? One UTuber clamped his down and still couldn't attain true square.

I fully expect to strip down whatever I get and search for mods when I discover what need to do.

Sure hope those dang tariffs get resolved soon (extra $300 per goes to Uncle Sam).

Thanks again.

 

[Lloyd-ss]

You mentioned wanting thoughts on a complimentary mill. I ended up buying the G1005Z drill-mill (6x12-1/2 travel although the table is larger than that) shortly after I got the Go6o2 lathe (10x22). Both machines were $1000 each when I bought them. The drill mill is sturdy and has some nice features but the efficient use of the Z travel requires careful planning or you'll end up having to do extra set-up work. Because your Z travel is basically the drill press quill travel, you are limited to 3-5/8" Z in a single set-up. But the entire head can move up and down on the big column a good 12".
The problem occurs if you run out of Z travel and have to raise the entire head in the middle of a machining op. When you loosen the pinch bolts on the head to raise it, it can also swivel around on the column, and that makes you loose your X and Y location. Then you have to get the indicator out and find your x-y zero again. A major pain in my book. But honestly, this has only happened when I didn't plan carefully and had to use a long boring head. The center drill and drilling ops might use short tools, but trying to put the boring head in requires a couple more inches in Z height. Like I said, proper planning usually avoids the problem, but if you are trying to drill and bore a really deep hole in a single set-up, sometimes 2 setups are unavoidable. BTW, and a DRO won't fix that problem.

 

[Cogsy]

That is the major problem with round column mills - losing your reference when you need to raise or lower the head. I have a larger mill with more quill travel than you have but still I need to raise and lower the head often when changing tools, such as a coaxial indicator to a 1 mm drill bit. With a dovetail column I just crank it up or down as need be and get back to work. I would suggest anyone contemplating a mill purchase steer clear of round column machines, even if they're substantially cheaper.

 

[deeferdog]

The tailstock in my lathe is a No3 Morse taper and this is the same as my mill. I have found this interchangeability to be a big saving in time and tooling. Not necessary but if it can be arranged its nice to have. Cheers, Peter

 

[ShopShoe]

The thing all beginners find is that you will need to acquire tooling and support items for metalworking that will cost more than the machine you start with. The cost for doing this on a mill is usually greater than a lathe, so starting on a lathe is good in that regard. I'm just mentioning this so you can start planning. Of course, you can acquire these things more slowly once you get started, but plan for that.

I always suggest that you practice with some "known" metal materials. "Mystery Metal" can cause bumps in your progress as your lathe often seems not to perform the way you learned the day before.

If you've never turned metal, I also suggest you start with a barstock project, either an engine or some other project that lets you practice without worrying about destroying a casting or some complex part you've already spent lots of time on.

I think your choices are a good starting place and those machines also are being used by many others in this hobby and you should be able to find the results of their labors on these forums. At that level, there are trade-offs in features you must live with, but it has already been mentioned that the precision is in the user, not the machine.

I have not used either machine you mention, but have had my eye on the G0602 as an upgrade to my shop from time to time.

Good Luck and keep us posted,

--ShopShoe

 

[Rongee]

The thing all beginners find is that you will need to acquire tooling and support items for metalworking that will cost more than the machine you start with. The cost for doing this on a mill is usually greater than a lathe, so starting on a lathe is good in that regard. I'm just mentioning this so you can start planning. Of course, you can acquire these things more slowly once you get started, but plan for that.

I always suggest that you practice with some "known" metal materials. "Mystery Metal" can cause bumps in your progress as your lathe often seems not to perform the way you learned the day before.

If you've never turned metal, I also suggest you start with a barstock project, either an engine or some other project that lets you practice without worrying about destroying a casting or some complex part you've already spent lots of time on.

I think your choices are a good starting place and those machines also are being used by many others in this hobby and you should be able to find the results of their labors on these forums. At that level, there are trade-offs in features you must live with, but it has already been mentioned that the precision is in the user, not the machine.

I have not used either machine you mention, but have had my eye on the G0602 as an upgrade to my shop from time to time.

Good Luck and keep us posted,

--ShopShoe

Hi, and thanks for that information.

This might be kind of a silly question, but do these machines come completely assembled or arrive in, say, several large parts? The reason I ask is that, for example, in the Grizzly line, their 8 x 16 lathe comes in at about 166 pounds, which I could reasonably wrestle down into my basement shop, but the 10X22 weighs in at 432 pounds, which means, for me, it'll live wherever it gets put down on delivery. When I started looking at was considering the Sherline lathes, which are quite a bit smaller, the weight wasn't going to be an issue.

I suppose when I get closer to a final selection, I'll be back with the "what else do I need to buy" question, but thanks for that initial advice as well.

Thanks again, fellas.

Ron

 

[bluejets]

As far as I have ever seen, lathes normally come as an assembled unit where perhaps the tailstock, chuck, motor and cross slides could be removed to lighten up the load to put the machine where you want it.
Reason being most is set up in the factory to be perfectly aligned.
A mill on the other hand (if round support post type) could be broken down at delivery time to again, lighten the load without too much bother.
It would normally come delivered "whole" . Perhaps any stand would be a separate unit.
These things are heavy and awkward into the bargain so get as many to help as you can muster.
Best you stay in charge though and make it perfectly clear from the beginning as everyone will have their own idea on how it should be done.
Then you'll end up with it on the basement floor in pieces.

Exciting time for you, I remember it well.

 

[Rongee]

It occurs to me that I've kind of hijacked Mac's thread here, so if it's more appropriate, I can start my own thread. Is there a protocol for this I should b e following?

Thanks

Ron

 

[kquiggle]

I had many of the same questions when I got started a few years ago. I collected my own thoughts on this as I went along, together with some advice from other home machinists, and put them on the link below. It was written with a milling machine in mind, but much of the same advice applies to a lathe:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/advice-from-a-newbie

 

[Rongee]

I had many of the same questions when I got started a few years ago. I collected my own thoughts on this as I went along, together with some advice from other home machinists, and put them on the link below. It was written with a milling machine in mind, but much of the same advice applies to a lathe:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/advice-from-a-newbie

Thanks so much for posting this. I managed to read through many of the links this afternoon, at least those along the main story line, and found them really helpful.

Ron

 

[Rongee]

Hello again,

Just to keep my own personal adventure up to date, based on the discussion about the weight of the machines, I think I'm leaning towards something in the 8 x 16 size range (I think Grizzly has 3 versions of an 8x16 that I can check into further. I think the differences have to do with variable speed motors and inclusion of DRO). Those weigh in at about 166 pounds, which should be manageable.

I'm sure as soon as I read up on variable speed motors and DRO, I'll have more questions .

Oh, but while I'm at it here, I know there are physical limitations on the max size of a piece that can be worked on, for example, an 8x16 lathe. Is there a limit on how small a piece that can be worked on? I've seen pictures of small "wobblers" that folks have built that have some pretty small pieces on them.

Thanks again.

Ron

 

[Rongee]

Oh, I should also mention that I'm looking at similar equipment from Little Machine Shop.com. They seem to have similar equipment. I don't much about them. They're going to be at a model machinist conference in Michigan next month, and I could save money on shipping if I were to drive there (about a 5 hour drive) to pick things up.

 

[Cogsy]

You can make small parts on a big lathe but not the other way round, within reason of course. At the sizes you're considering there shouldn't be an engine part too small to make on those lathes.

 

[Rudy from Norway]

My 250x500 (10x20), 125mm chuck, holds down to 1.4mm. With my 4-jaw self centering chuck that I use the most, down to 3.4mm.

Rudy