Easy at home Parkerizing steel and iron (US formula)

[jack404]

Thanks tel

yes but the only new thing in the place is the small (500mm Between centres) yellow POS in the background.
and the tool bits

the newest machine is the maxim gundrill and thats 1958 again ex ADI lithgow small arms factory

it was used to convert .303 barrels to .308 NATO ( brens etc) sold my harley and car ( and soul) to buy it all and setup a smiths shop but basically all of that is to make barrels and cut the stock timbers ( and paint them)
the rest i do in the flat here 3-4 ( 5 if i screw up) days in the big shop gives me a 35 days or so work here

the time is all in the locks and actions the machines do all the large work and do it well.

and going from those dinosaurs to the small stuff you folks do its a real headache and a half

the cam jigs are all up on the wall in the background and its these i have been working on to make accurate cams for small motors, but need to relearn just about everything, theres just no room for mistakes with the small stuff and why i am here,

anyway back to the CAD stuff thats another part i'm trying to learn ( and getting balder in the attempt) :big:

cheers

 

[Macca]

OK here's my attempt from this evening.
This is the detent from my lathe indexing attachment, the surface finish is fairly rough.

Wearing gloves I gave it a going over with a scouring pad, just a cheap nylon jobbie. Then I hit it with some degreaser and rinsed it in warm tap water.
I mixed up a solution of about 375mL of demineralised water (Is this as good as distilled water? I dunno) to about 125 mL of rust converter. I chucked in about 7 grams worth of sacrificial anode from a boat/camping shop, it started fizzzing and produced a white foam on top. This was all done in a 2L stainless steel billy (from the same shop) so once the foam came up I couldnt see what was going on. I warmed up the solution using a camping stove till it was simmering and dropped the bits in, ten minutes later I pulled them out.
They were as black as the night.

After lots of degreaser and running water this is what the looked like, a dull grey.

The black spot on the knurled section doesn't seem to want to come off, it may not have been degreased well enough to begin with.
So what do you think? Is this how it's done or have I screwed it up royally?


Nice workshop Jack, we should all be so lucky.

 

[jack404]

Macca

straight up

its a lot better than my first attempt

spots

always lots of reasons for them to be spotty and never enough answers

i try to hang the bits without them touching anything theres no reason other than a long standing suspicion for this but do think in my own mind its better, but reading and talking with others , thers no reason to do so

only one spot , because its knurled it will be hard to scrap back

but oil and grease can do strange things and penetrating oil is shocking to get off

if you dare risk it try a caustic solution and boil stuff in that for 5-10 mins

the boil in water and detergent then again in the demineralised water ( i always thought it ok, different but the same if that makes sence ?)

if in doubt, clean when preping to coat anything, i was doing a stock and left it for a bit while a mate visited

he opened a can of coke or something and a few fine droplets musta sprayed out and landed on the stock

one of the nicest bits of walnut i ever had stuffed..

and lots of metal blueing ( rust blueing especially) stories similar

but again thats a ok colour for a first off park job you should be well chuffed, i would be

its even ( despite the spot but i'd bet thats a light oil that went deep) its not grainy ( another issue thats real common) and about right for a M3A1 grease gun brand new outta the park tank

put it in the oven for a hour at 150 deg C and see the difference it makes if the colour lightens add more zinc to the next batch if it darkens a bit less ( its the zinc oxide oxidising more) may smell a bit too

have you any metal polish and a rag wheel ?? try that and see how it comes out i think the polish is the real test but suspect yours will be ok from that last pic if you can get it smooth and satin in finish you have a excellent job first up but try the polish ( heavy duco cutting compound will suffice if no metal polish but DONT USE BRASSO!! silvo if you gotta but clean it off with water regularly the solvents are a tad hard

once smooth take some more pics but try not to use a flash it always make it look lighter than it is

but well done mate bloody well done

cheers jack

 

[jack404]

Macca, have my mate here and was showing him your first attempt

his quote was

"that just not fair , you sure its his first go? "

so i'm not the only one thinking you did ok first time out

we've both had lots worse results .. again well done

and Harry reckons the spot is a oil mark he says somehwre there was a bit of info about the resistance of oil and getting metal clean he's going to try to find it and we'll post it when he gets it

but basically think the same from reading your post , hot water is never enough you have to get it boiling and strong detergents and some food grease ( bacon fat, butter, peanut oil, etc) are the hardest to remove i did read
somewhere and why those warnings about peanut traces in packaged foods it is near impossible to remove from a working machine without dismantling it.

ever had a ham sandwich in the workshop??

i've posted the blueing book in the download section its copyright expired according to to the search list on WIPO ( world intellectual property org ) it was first published in 1871 and this copy was printed 1930's

there are 12 or so black blues in there that i have seen and probably more but some use very nasty ingrediants so i skip those an stick with what is safe for me to play with, also nitric acid is getting hard to get thanks to recent events

a total of 400 different bues and browns for metals in it

but another way to get a deep deep black is heat soaking if you have enough manganese oxide ( not dioxide) mix that with very fine charcoal and bury you parts in it and put the whole lot into a oven at 400 deg F for 12 hours.

the remove, cool in the air and soak in motor oil and sprinkle as even as you can more mang ox and place back in the oven at 300 for 2 hours

this will produce the deepest black you have ever seen and some people call it black chrome ( its not ) but is used by show bike (harley choppers) makers for exauhst tube as this finish does not discolour when it gets hot

but the ammount of Mang oxide it uses make it a very expencive product unless you do it yourself a single 25 kilko bag will do more tube than you'll ever use if thats what you want make a good sheet steel tray to hold it and get a decent oven that can do high temps

cheers

jack

 

[Macca]

Thanks for the praise Jack, but you don't get off that easily, I still have more questions.
How durable is this kind of finish in your experience? I imagine that if it stands up to repeated racking of the slide on a semi-auto pistol it must be pretty tough. I have noticed some scratches on mine , near the threads, and on the lip near the bottom. Is this from insufficient coating? I only had it in the solution for 10 minutes, should I have left it in longer? Can I put the piece back in the solution to give it a second coat?
I didn't measure the temperature, is it super critical? I imagine the heat is just to speed up the process so I just got the solution to almost boiling, then backed of the heat a little. I think I may have had it too hot and been too quick, next one I'll try a lower heat for a longer time.

I'm pretty sure the black spot is from oil from the knurling process, I didn't use the scourer on the knurled section, and I just used cheap spray degreaser from super-cheap auto. I wasn't very thorough, as I was impatient to get the process finished, to see the end result. I stuffed up the knurled section when I made it anyway, I drilled the hole too large, and then I used the wrong pitch tap! I just ran the correct tap though last night and sawed the rest of the bar off it so I had two things to try to parkerise.

All in all I'm really happy with the way it turned out, I like the way the finish feels, it's smooth but not slippery. I like the colour too, I was expecting a lighter gray, maybe it will lighten with age? I think I will pick up some manganese dioxide and give it a try anyway, using a powder has to be easier than hacking a bit off a sacrificial anode.

I'll see if I can pick up some polish this afternoon, I don't have a rag wheel but I have a stash of elbow grease down in the shed.

Thanks for all your help Jack!


Edit: I just realised that when I did the degreasing/rinsing I used old takeaway food containers. They'd been through the dishwasher but that could be where the contamination came from. I guess I'll have to hunt up some stainless steel containers.

 

[Macca]

Jack,
I just had a look at the browning/blueing book you posted in the downloads section.
The last chapter is on phosphatizing, all the times given are in hours, e.g. boil for 2-4 hours.
I had a quick look in Howe's 'The modern gunsmith' but there's nothing on phosphatizing.
Needless to say I am a little bit confused, could you clarify this for me?

 

[jack404]

Macca

yes times and heat hav big parts to this process so your on the right track

i have a 1928 issue colt .45 in the US, ( the laws here made me send it there or lose it)

i've personally put 4000 rounds + through it and never even thought of redoing the original park job

when you do a good job first up it should last a life time, the Russians did dark parking on the PPsH series of weapons ( the famous russian slant nose sub machine guns ) and they have a beutiful patina on them now
parking is a good coating no 2 ways about it

i'm at the big shop ATM and not near my main resources so will get back to you with the US pataent for parkerizing i copy the times and heats from that,

despite it being a patent, the patent holder in this case is the US army

and by default makes it open for public usage ( tax payers of the US we thank you)

however the gent who invented parking is a pom ( british ) but never patented it ( goose! sorry to the brits here but that was a arrogant mistake)

a sore point with many brits who pay through the nose for parking kits

but but changing the process by 20% as a minimum and pennies do that ( or boat annode strip) you have a "new Invention" under the laws but the times and heat part can be used without fear of breach of copyright is you change enough of the rest of the process ( put in to cover my and our collective butts)

i should be home about 4-5 ( is 12:40 now) and will post as soon as i scan it a jpg it or pdf what ever is easier



cheers

jack

Howes is more on restoring shot guns and other simple rifles not on manufacturing parking is generally done on military weapons when new so is considered a manuafcturers process not a shop process ( which deals with more tradition blues and browns the big book i posted does not discriminate also howes have 5-6 editions each very different i'll send a disk to you in the mail i have 3 different versions

some peoples idea of parking is thats its a 3rd rate process because of its militray history but lets face facts

a rust blue may last 50 years but can be stuffed by a weekend in the rain

parking is MEANT to survive a weekend in the rain and soldiers are taught to care for rifles etc

while i know of many different parkerizing process's i use the ones that i deem the simplest and most reliable FOR ME!!! and for me only someone else may have different ideas and THANK GOD they do otherwise the place would be boring as Heck.

jeff day of days firearms in perth does great asprin parking the result is wonderful i have the recipie and process but never tryed it why its 6 days of work to me thats silly and i could not justify the expence for my customers he can and good luck to him ( but he has a good gunshop supplimenting his income too)

now heres another thing using one zinc alloy will produce a different result than another alloy

aluminium is neutral so why i say boat annodes and gives a result not far from 100% zinc but if it has even 2% copper its much darker or if i has 1% iron its slower ( hours slower)

i use granulated zinc , the same batch i have been using for years so all my results are the same every time i beleive my 25 kilo bag ( 60lb) is about half way used over 20 years of working i bought 2 zinc "bricks" or ingots 100% pure but never have tryed them why? i dont play around that much with what I KNOW works for me , my way in my shop

1 i never had the time much ( i did play with a lot by request to get a match etc mainly with rust blues and fast blues to match existing company secret blues like the first deep blue for the colt 357 mag what a beutiful blue that is..but i was getting paid for it and it was for a good mate but colt do NOT use the process any more either it cost a packet in labour and time and they stopped it as people would not pay the extra $200 back then to get the result now maybe $1000)

2 with the experiments i have done i have learned a few "short cuts" that i like but dont recommend any more because of bad results with other people maybe its the tanks maybe its a contaminate maybe a lot of things but it works my way but seemingly not for others, i'm not a good chemist

3 i am a former soldier , i like parkerized metal, to me it feels good i trust it and recommend it ,, it is not a fine powder blue its not a esquisite english slow brown its was never meant to be! the muzzle loaders i sell to the USA are arsenite chromed
(not arsenic) or cobalted no one will look at my parked weapons its not what the market wants , but the 'roo shooters here i do repairs and mods for think like me reliability first, looks second. and for my customers who trust me i will park and polish 2-3 times ( like painting and cutting back) to get the finish they wish and i can guarentee that for a lifetime

a rust blue or bottle blue i need too much faith in the customer to do that and people are people and falable and a life time guarentee can send you broke if they stuff up and dont treat the gun as a they should and you cant prove it

again i am biased but for my reasons everyone else is different Mr howe is very different to me but thers a lot in there for a amatuer smith to learn besides what he does not say

anyway thats lunch i'll post these things tonight and send off the disks on my way in tomorrow

cheers mate

jack

oh and to clarify

there are lots of parkerizing meathods

the primarily revolve around the three main ones

Zinc

Iron

Manganese

zinc and Mang are the life long ones in my personal thoughts

Iron is prettiest but can rust if not cared for

try all three and see what YOU LIKE , thats what should count not my ideas or anyone elses

 

[Macca]

Thanks Jack,
I expect it takes a little experimentation to get this process down pat. Hopefully I shall try polishing and re-parkerizing this piece tonight, and maybe parkerizing a new piece as well. I have domestic duties to attend to tonight so I may not be able to play in the shed for real long. I'll see if I can pick up a thermometer and some measuring gear as well, not much point getting a good finish if you can't repeat the process. I have found a source for some manganese dioxide so I will order a kilo and have a play with that as well.
Thanks for all your help Jack, I really appreciate it.

 

[jack404]

Macca no worries

your doing fine anyway

i have just uploaded a few simple formula's ( not mine but all tested) and have looked and the 1851 formula in the book i uploaded is the same as the US one so its overkill

one last reference

http://www.cromwell-intl.com/garand/parkerizing.html

gerry does a nice job with lots of pics

cheers

jack


( showing off time )

this is what i am selling in the USA via a agency who is selling them for me to Cabela's

the first is the carbine version of the brown bess

the next is the Infantry long arm

both have the cobalt blue ( it does not really blue but creates a very thin cobalt coating that protects the steel )

cheers

 

[Macca]

Thanks Jack, those downoads will keep me busy for a while!
I'll see if I can get to play in the shed after dinner.
Very nice work on the rifles by the way.

 

[Macca]

Finally got down to the shed tonight to have another go at parkerizing.
I read the info Jack posted in the downloads section, one of the things that I picked up from the Brownells pamphlet was that the rougher the surface finish is before parkerizing the better. It seems the standard is to sandblast parts. Not having a sandblaster, I used 150 grit sandpaper on a new test piece. I polished the old piece, degreased them both using a new, stronger degreaser and had another go at parkerizing.
This is the new test piece, it is a 'practice' from my attempt at Elmer's Tiny.

This time I kept a close eye on the temperature, which was hard as it fluctuated a bit. I tried to keep it around 80 degrees C. This was lower than last time, which was probably around 95-100 degrees. I left the pieces in for 15 minutes. I found a toothbrush invaluable when cleaning the pieces after parkerizing.
This is how they turned out

Much better than last time.
I think it's a goer. ;D

Stuff still left to do:
I had the pieces resting on the bottom of the tank, which is far from ideal. I have some stainless steel wire laying around somewhere, so I'll make up a little basket, so the parts are suspended in the solution.
I ordered some manganese dioxide today, so when that arrives I'll try using it instead of zinc and post the results.
It remains to be seen how effective my attempts are with relation to the durability and longevity of the coating. I think I'll deliberately be hard on these pieces just to see how much they will stand up to.
As with any finish, the key is in the preparation. I think I see a small sandblaster in my future.

 

[jack404]

Woo Hoo!

and yes preperation is 90% of any coating

well done

now that is out
1 did you wash it? then dry it?
2 did you oil it?asking as it looks un oiled in the pic maybe just me..or flash

what zinc are you using?

also
i have some zinc 99.99% etc pure

wanna trade for some of the mang oxide ?

i do want to try a mix i have seen ( glock coating )

its

12 grams iron oxide

6 grams Mang Oxide

3 grams copper sulphate

15 grams pure as possible ( no nickel) zinc

all disolved in phosphoric 600 milliliters

heated to 92- 94 deg C dipped for 22 minutes ( temp is important for this one too high is uneven too low and the crystals are too big and grainy and come off)

washed in boiling de-mineralised water for 3-5 mins dryed in a oven with hot air blower

air cooled until its below 50 deg C ( to allow crystal bonding to hanetify, a crystalisation process)

and oiled with Mobilmet -Alpha ( a low odour mineral oil)

the glock black is sooo sexy

again well done sorry for the questions

parking is a way to coat metal but also to allow oil to stay close to the metal which does the major ammount of protection and why the questions

cheers mate

jack

 

[Macca]

Jack, that picture is washed and dried, no oil. The pieces are now soaked in WD-40, wrapped in a rag, as I want to show them to a guy at work. There's probably a special gun product that's way better than WD-40, is there something you can recommend?
I used degreaser and a toothbrush for the cleanup out of the tank, is that too harsh? Once all the black stuff was off I rinsed in warm water, then dried.
I should have used the toothbrush for the initial degreasing, but I didn't think of it till afterwards, when I was trying to clean the threads out.
I am using a small (about 2x50g) sacrificial anode from a boating/camping shop, it doesn't actually say zinc on it anywhere, but as far as I know that's all that's used for boat anodes.
I only ordered 1Kg of the manganese dioxide, but I'm more than happy to give you half.

 

[jack404]

Macca the forumla i have i only need 100 grams to do a heap of work

50 even i have copper sulp.

i have heaps of 99.99% zinc

made my own iron oxide long ago

just no mang ox

trade you a stick of pure zinc for a small vegemite jar size ( 50 grams) of mang

a kilo is heaps unless you do immersion work then rock on over and use my oven and trays they are near bankstown airport, its set up for immersion

the colour showed me no oil and possibly nickel ( sorry i am not more precise i work a lot by eye ) but i think WD40 is fine for basics and a lot better than some

i like fine mineral oils and a expert friend in the US uses Singer sewing machine oil, which is not too dissimilar to WD40 ( less additives and a fine grade oil) so your not far from the perfect oil

some oils used by corporate coaters are

gulf #44
Mobilmet - Alpha ( a very fine low odour mineral oil and my favourite)
penetrene ( actually a penetrating oil used to unstick rusted parts but used by a couple of companies in park work)

hope this helps

oh and I sent those disks

cheers

jack

 

[Macca]

The Manganese Dioxide I ordered arrived today, so I had another go at parkerizing.
The formula was the same as last time, just swap the manganese dioxide for the zinc. ( 375ml demineralised water, 125 ml rust converter, 7 grams manganese dioxide.)
Here is the test piece, it is the flywheel from Elmer's Tiny.

No sandblaster yet, so I just roughed it up with 150 grit sandpaper.
I picked up a thermometer used for frothing milk at a restaurant supply store, it clips to the side of the pot and makes it easy to keep the right temperature.
I left the piece in for 15 minutes, rinsed it off and hit it with WD-40.

Thats the previous piece, done with zinc for a comparison. Apologies for the terrible photos, I'm using my phone, and I tend to shake a bit.
As you can hopefully tell by that second picture, the flywheel came out Black, not dark gray, or charcoal, but Black. I couldn't have hoped for a better result.
I have to get a wriggle on and finish the rest of the pieces for Tiny, the black steel with polised brass is going to look fantastic, I can't wait.

 

[jack404]

yes indeedy

a top job!!

maybe i gotta mix water with the acid for mang work makes sence though,

extra hydrogen ( from the water ) for copper mang silver

always something to learn eh!

well done and thanks for the tip!

cheers macca

jack

 

[tel]

Accidental Parkerizing - almost forgot I had this, until it turned up during a clean up today. It's the slidey bit off a slide hammer - 5" dia. x 2" thick. Was badly in need of derusting, so I dumped it in a bucket of Phos solution and let it for about three days - came out as you see. The marks on on are external crap it's picked up over the last few months, not damage to the finish.

 

[rusmaster2003]

Not fair really, is it? The Seppos get to do it for a penny - we gotta spend two bob.

I got about 200 litres of 100% food grade phosphoric on hand - I'll have to try that

I think its awesome we do it for a penny. Dont go all crocodile dundee on us for it