Copyright on old engines

[Prospect]

Hi, Me again. Finished the housecleaning and still working on the downsizing.

Question for those who know better. I have an International 5HP hit and miss engine which belonged to my Uncles. I have fond memorys of hearing it running the well pump jack. Years ago when I restored it I measured it up with the idea of building a 1/4 scale model. The drawings I made at the time were very basic. These drawings are dieing big time. Before I waste my time drawing some proper drawings for something I doubt I'll ever have the time to build, would there be any problems if I do redraw and post the drawings with copyright? If OK don't hold your breath on any timeline. Just would like to know. My posts get Prolonged. Sorry about that. John

 

[steamer]

If your drawings are copies of 1/4 scale drawings someone else made, I'd say you have an issue.

The fact that YOU drew them based on an existing full size engine ....IMHO...and now I'm not a lawer....means your fine.
They're your drawings of a model , not Internationals of a full size engine.......

Just my opinion, worth just what you paid for it.

Dave

 

[Prospect]

Steamer. Thanks for that info. John

 

[Maryak]

If your drawings are copies of 1/4 scale drawings someone else made, I'd say you have an issue.

The fact that YOU drew them based on an existing full size engine ....IMHO...and now I'm not a lawer....means your fine.
They're your drawings of a model , not Internationals of a full size engine.......

Just my opinion, worth just what you paid for it.

Dave

I'm no lawyer either but I Agree with Dave.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[bezalel2000]

I'm not a lawyer either but I do know that perpetuity laws extinguish copyright.

which just means that if the IP is old enough there is no copyright issue. ;D

from what I can tell the lawyers get the big bucks for arguing over whats "old enough" :

Bez

 

[Mainer]

Ask the question: is anybody going to want to spend the time and money to come after you for drawing plans of an obsolete engine, assuming they still have any claim on the design? I suppose if the plans ever became a runaway best-seller and you starter raking in real money somebody might get interested...but that isn't going to happen.

 

[Ken I]

I agree with what's been said.

Typically patents last for 20 years (extendable in some circustances) and copyright 100 years.

However copyright extends generally (varies from country to country) to the use of original drawings or copies thereof - it is generally not illegal to to reengineer an out of patent design - it is illegal to use their drawings - as stated lawyers get paid to fight over such inane distinctions.

The company Fichtel & Sachs won a case here in South Africa when a local clutch manufacturer claimed his design was his own copy of a Ford part (which would have been legal).

F&S's lawyers then aked them to explain the functionality of certain holes in the product - they could not - turns out F&S place spurious holes and features in their designs that they never apply to the finished product - thus conclusively proving that the manufacturer had been given access to F&S drawings and had used them (and they had lied to the Court about it) - the result - F&S took them to the cleaners.

By similar token if someone were to copy your "copyrighted" designs of a scale model of an existing design you would have very little chance of defending your copyright claim.

2c

Ken

 

[hdwrench1]

HI Guys,
Just saw this thread and I have to tell you. I've got a couple designs that we manufactured in-house over the years that some companies have bought, copied and made overseas and told us to pound sand when I questioned them.
I don't even bother with copyrighting any part designs on legal advice. My lawyer told me if Disney can't stop the Chinese from copying their movies what chance do I have.
Sad but true.
If its a really good design and somebody with deep pockets steals it you are pretty much stuck in the mud trying to defend your design.

On the engine plans, I don't think anybody is going to chase you down to cease and desist.

Just my $.02
Cheers
Wayne

 

[rake60]

We have had a few instances of copyright infringement from this site.

None of them to date have resulted in any type of legal litigation.
That day may come.
If it does, it will probably be the end of HMEM.

Any original plans are free and clear of any chance of risking a copyright violation.

If the plans are copied, rescaled or even very similar to one with a copyright attached
to it, it could create a problem for us.

Rick

 

[myrickman]

Here is a good discussion on copyright law:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...5cCtDg&usg=AFQjCNFf6OnGL28QnKsy322mxL0mKPNRPQ
Did you actually copyright the drawings in the first place? If they are your property, and you do not have a problem with posting/distributing them for gratis, then public domain sounds like the way to go. Where it gets tricky is if you put IHC logo (trademark) on the model. If you call it a "general purpose farm engine" , you may help keep the sharks at bay.

 

[Ken I]

some companies have bought, copied and made overseas and told us to pound sand when I questioned them.

I do something that some people consider very odd - when I supply a machine that is my own original design, I supply a complete set of drawings with it. My terms state that these are for ongoing maintenance and repair - not for the creation of replacement or additional units.

On the three occasions that I have caught customers building new units - they have paid up for the design useage without a fight - they can't very well claim they "reverse engineered it" whilst in possesion of a full set of drawings. So there is some method in my madness perhaps.

By the same token if I am challenged over a copyright issue that I am alleged to have infringed, I simply ignore them until they go away. If they phone, hang up. Dialogue of any kind only encourages them - do nothing until they file suit - which in most cases will not happen.

I am not reccomending this - it is entirely dependant on your situation and local laws. (I typically build "one off" type machines.)

The Chinese copy entire cars and change the badge only - BMW was spectacularly told to get screwed by a Chinese court when it challenged the flagrant copying of one of its models by a Chinese company.

Japan behaved in much the same way until the protection of its own intellectual copyright was more valuable.

There's no one more virtuous than a reformed whore.

Ken

 

[RonGinger]

Copyright is protection for your drawing, not for the idea it expresses. The following is from the document noted above

"copyright
protection is limited to expression and accords no protection for
ideas. The myth is that works are not available for use by the public
unless they are in the public domain; the truth is that the works
are available and the ideas are free for the taking"

So if you look at an existing engine and make drawings of it you own the copyright to those drawings. The original designer of the engine has no copyright to your drawings. They MIGHT have some patent protection on the ideas in the engine, or some TRADEMARK protection but you are free to draw the engine and sell or give away the drawings.

So I can take any drawing or document and re-write it in my own words and I am not violating your copyright. If I run it through a copy machine, then I am violating copyright.

 

[Mike N]

I remember many years ago someone sold 1/2 scale casting kits for a 1 1/2HP John Deere Hit & Miss engine. Only a few of these kits were ever sold before JD put a stop to it. This was a very nice all cast Iron kit. About 2-3 years ago I saw one of these kits sell for about $3000.00 on eBay. Does anyone else know anything about this?

 

[steamer]

That, I suspect, was a trademark violation.....using the JD name and Logo.....without license from JD.

I really doubt they cared what the logo was attached to.

Dave

 

[b.lindsey]

Are you referring to the Dinky Deere casting kits? I thought the Dinky Deere's were authorized by JD if i recall the ads. Not sure how many were sold though, they were pretty pricey.

Bill

 

[RonGinger]

yes, the Dinky Deere kits were done with permission of JD. I talked to the guy that did the kits at a NAMES show. He said JD was getting a fairly large royalty payment from each kit.

It was for the use of the trademark John Deere, and probably other trademarks, maybe even for the color.

That was a good example of over doing it for a kit. He had great plans, good patterns. It was no wonder the kit cost a fortune and he eventually gave it up. I think it has been taken over by someone, maybe the Merry engine guys. I'm sure I saw one on a vendor table at a show recently.

 

[Jasonb]

Yep Martin Model do the little 3/10 scale one thats approved

http://www.martinmodel.com/MMPengines-subfiles/engines-deere.html


Farmer Brown's do teh 1/2 scale

http://www.antiquengines.com/images/Fly0062.JPG

J

 

[Mike N]

Are you referring to the Dinky Deere casting kits? I thought the Dinky Deere's were authorized by JD if i recall the ads. Not sure how many were sold though, they were pretty pricey.

Bill

No this was way before the Dinky Deeres. The kit I am referring to was a lot larger than the Dinky Deere kits.

 

[deverett]

The half scale JD type E 1-1/2 hp castings are by Farmer Brown, but how many sets he produces a year I know not. I sold a set on only a few months ago. When purchasing the castings (and drawings, of course) there is a choice of decals. Either 'Little John' or 'John Deere'. Judging from the cost of the castings, I doubt he pays any royalties to JD for the use of their name on his engines.

Farmer Brown's Model Engines. 610-286-5239 Leroy S Hoover 2747 Valley View Rd, Morgantown, Pa. 19543 Gas engine kits, 1/2 scale of 1-1/2hp John Deere model "E", 1/2 scale of a 1/2hp & 1-1/2hp New Holland engine. Cast iron kits. [email protected] 484-955-7702

These details from John Davis' very informative site.

Dave
The Emerald Isle