Henry K
Well-Known Member
John,
Make that DoubleCAD XT5
Henty
Make that DoubleCAD XT5
Henty
Autodesk Fusion 360 or other free software?
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I have been using free or nearly free cad software for decades. I have at work used the 2D drafting software developed by Boeing. AutoCAD 2D is junk in comparison. That was first on grouped work stations running as terminals off a main frame computer. Before PCs. I have an elbow drafting machine that I created drawing on velum in those days, E size.
Marched may way through ProE, Solid Works UG. at work. Free software started with Granite which was discontinued. Creo is also a free ProE 3D software, both had limit on size and export format. Tried a few others with my requirement of accepting STEP or IGES format and have a 2D capacity. That left out all the budget packages except one. Which I purchase and about two years later when belly up.
For the last few years ~ 3 to 4, I am using FreeCAD. It has improved significantly from version 13. Version 15 had a technical drafting package. The Atlas F model lathe on GrabCAD has hundreds of parts all created on version 15 or 16, no limits. Downward compatibility existed to version 16. A new overall structure change occurred with 17 with capability to bring in with some work models from earlier version. Compatibility continues within later version 18. And it has the widest breath of work benches and connections to other modeling software. NO COMMERCIAL employer I have worked for had licenses for the width of capacity.
The capacity of commercial packages are better. Both in surface model building and drafting need work. But one can build almost anything and create 2D drawing that are usable. Every commercial package have problems also but people have learned how to work around them. The ability to find out from others how to get around a problem is lost with you being a lone user at home. I would put the problems of FreeCAD in solid 3D modeling different then those in ProE or UG but requiring just as much effort to work around their problems. Have not used Solid Works enough to really find out the problems.
The software is totally free and is up in the top group of software used A CNC survey I found done in 2015 said it has about 2% of the market which is the same portion as ProE. BobCAD, Rino, and Google sketch had greater market share. The last two are not 3D technical design software packages. I think freeCAD is going to stay around and continue to get better.
Understand that Autodesk Fusion 360 and the other free software packages all have a goal of moving you towards licensing on a yearly bases, profit stream. The reduced packages are pure profit once the commercial thousands of dollar package are developed. Granite was purchased to end competition and simple enough to offer free so ProE could get a taste. Creo part of ProE stopped the free packages and has as Fusion 360 is doing a low budget license. Expect only the student version will remain free in the future and you will get hurt to much.
Marched may way through ProE, Solid Works UG. at work. Free software started with Granite which was discontinued. Creo is also a free ProE 3D software, both had limit on size and export format. Tried a few others with my requirement of accepting STEP or IGES format and have a 2D capacity. That left out all the budget packages except one. Which I purchase and about two years later when belly up.
For the last few years ~ 3 to 4, I am using FreeCAD. It has improved significantly from version 13. Version 15 had a technical drafting package. The Atlas F model lathe on GrabCAD has hundreds of parts all created on version 15 or 16, no limits. Downward compatibility existed to version 16. A new overall structure change occurred with 17 with capability to bring in with some work models from earlier version. Compatibility continues within later version 18. And it has the widest breath of work benches and connections to other modeling software. NO COMMERCIAL employer I have worked for had licenses for the width of capacity.
The capacity of commercial packages are better. Both in surface model building and drafting need work. But one can build almost anything and create 2D drawing that are usable. Every commercial package have problems also but people have learned how to work around them. The ability to find out from others how to get around a problem is lost with you being a lone user at home. I would put the problems of FreeCAD in solid 3D modeling different then those in ProE or UG but requiring just as much effort to work around their problems. Have not used Solid Works enough to really find out the problems.
The software is totally free and is up in the top group of software used A CNC survey I found done in 2015 said it has about 2% of the market which is the same portion as ProE. BobCAD, Rino, and Google sketch had greater market share. The last two are not 3D technical design software packages. I think freeCAD is going to stay around and continue to get better.
Understand that Autodesk Fusion 360 and the other free software packages all have a goal of moving you towards licensing on a yearly bases, profit stream. The reduced packages are pure profit once the commercial thousands of dollar package are developed. Granite was purchased to end competition and simple enough to offer free so ProE could get a taste. Creo part of ProE stopped the free packages and has as Fusion 360 is doing a low budget license. Expect only the student version will remain free in the future and you will get hurt to much.
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FreeCAD is definitely improving at a rapid pace. I am currently using 0.18.4, eagerly awaiting for 0.19 - I've played with the development releases a bit, but prefer to stick with a stable release as my main workhorse.
By all accounts, Fusion360 is the cat's meow ... but I am reluctant to invest time in an ecosystem that could at any time become fee-only. And as I said above, I can do everything I need to do, and more, with FreeCAD.
By all accounts, Fusion360 is the cat's meow ... but I am reluctant to invest time in an ecosystem that could at any time become fee-only. And as I said above, I can do everything I need to do, and more, with FreeCAD.
I've been using Onshape for almost 2 years and am very pleased with it. It is parametric/solids and works pretty well, and is free. The company was bought up by PTC (the Pro/Engineer/Creo company) about 1 year ago and while my previous experiences with them were not the best so far all is ok. Many free tutorials and Home Shop Machinist ran a recent series on getting started with it. I used Free CAD for a bit and it worked ok but is not nearly as refined to use as Onshape in my opinion.
Richard Hed
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Oh oh,oh! a fellow telescopist! I too am building telescopes. I have one in the Philippines that I am trying to get the last polishing done but just can't quite get it right. Here, in USA, I haven't started a 6" (an 8" is after that), as I am working 13-14 hrs to have $$ for all these hobbies. Looks like it will be a fall/winter hobby this year. Do you use your telescopes to view the nebulae or are you selling them?
Richard Hed
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That's the way of many software companies: get you hookt on the software, then start charging for it. they would probably make more $$ if they were more sensible, that is, charge a small fee, say $20 for a year instead of offering "free" software. They could give you a couple months to try it, and if you continue with it, then charge for a year. But NO, they foolishly "give it to you" (up the what?), then take it back and want a stupendous fee. I have Inventor 6, and it is very nice but I understand the newer versions are circles, squares and triangles faster and easier. I also have AutoCAD 2004i Architectural which is what I use most for mechanical stuff. It is 3D but much more difficult than 3D which is written from the get go (the start) to be 3D. Many more buttons to press and operations to get 3D but still, it is quite adequate and powerful. The place it really falls flat is the 2D flat layouts, plans, views which is a mess to deal with.
Richard Hed
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I was going to check out Onshape on your recommend, but the moment I found it was "cloudspace", forget it, will not do it.
Granite, Creo, and now Onshape. If PTC is following the normal approach your aloud to import many formats but very few export formats. Typically one STL which is useless as an import to another 3D modeling software.
Creo if I remember had a number of parts limit. Now if you do not have much experience with designing parts then I would start with programs like Creo or Onshape because the platform is easier to use then FreeCAD. But if you want to have a model that you can provide someone else then you need to store the model in step or IGUS.
Now you will have to tell me. Creo once saved, shut down the program, and then start Creo import the model the parametric information is lost. This is an option on UG. For big models with dozens of steps I know from experience that the loss of history of the building of the model is a good thing because it is near impossible to go back dozens of step in an effort to repair the model. So tell me what type of software is Onshape. Full history stored model like ProE or something like a step saved model like Creo.
Creo if I remember had a number of parts limit. Now if you do not have much experience with designing parts then I would start with programs like Creo or Onshape because the platform is easier to use then FreeCAD. But if you want to have a model that you can provide someone else then you need to store the model in step or IGUS.
Now you will have to tell me. Creo once saved, shut down the program, and then start Creo import the model the parametric information is lost. This is an option on UG. For big models with dozens of steps I know from experience that the loss of history of the building of the model is a good thing because it is near impossible to go back dozens of step in an effort to repair the model. So tell me what type of software is Onshape. Full history stored model like ProE or something like a step saved model like Creo.
Richard Hed
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone here contribute to the "Free"Cads? It helps them stay in business and you can decide how much you are willing to contribute. I doesn't like contributing to the commercial people but the "free" peeps I occassionally contribut to.
If you start looking at discussions of FreeCAD and who is making work benchs and modules you will find China has many users. It is also popular in other cultures that have developed Lenix. I am sure there is an approach to fund the web site for the people using their skills to develop the software. I expect to see a commercial version with expanded features appear on the market.
MrMetric
Well-Known Member
When evaluating a "free" tool, there is one thing that I think we should all be considering. Most of the products out there require continual 'upping' of the license and/or a constant connection to a license server on the internet. This is important because you never really know how long it will be before the rug is pulled out from under you. An example of this is DraftSight. It was free for years, people got used to it, and then wham! Now you need to pay a yearly subscription fee. Fusion360 could *easily* go down the same road. NanoCAD v5 requires a license tied to your computer (non-transportable) which makes it very suspect too. What happens when you want to upgrade your computer? Will you still be able to register that version?
Because software developers really only listen to the market (full disclosure... that is my profession), more people that complain about yearly licenses are the only way that there is a (remote) possibility that companies will move away from the subscription model. Subscriptions are *not* good things. They are expensive and you are at the whim of a company either going out of business or ceasing to support a product. With a traditional license key, you'd be able to continue using the program on your computer even though it wasn't supported by the vendor.
I'm going to look at the DoubleCAD product to see if it can manage as a DraftSight substitute. I bought QCAD, which has a permanent license, but I've had mixed results with it, frankly. On the one side, I am extremely grateful to have *something*, but I do prefer DraftSight. Sadly, many of my drawing elements did strange things when imported into QCAD too, which gives me some pause.... NanaCAD 5, the free version, imported old drawings very well, but I'm *very* concerned by the restrictive binding to a single computer with the license file. That reeks of something that could cause problems in the future.
Anyhow, just my 2 cents on things to think about when investing (your time) in a "free" product.
Because software developers really only listen to the market (full disclosure... that is my profession), more people that complain about yearly licenses are the only way that there is a (remote) possibility that companies will move away from the subscription model. Subscriptions are *not* good things. They are expensive and you are at the whim of a company either going out of business or ceasing to support a product. With a traditional license key, you'd be able to continue using the program on your computer even though it wasn't supported by the vendor.
I'm going to look at the DoubleCAD product to see if it can manage as a DraftSight substitute. I bought QCAD, which has a permanent license, but I've had mixed results with it, frankly. On the one side, I am extremely grateful to have *something*, but I do prefer DraftSight. Sadly, many of my drawing elements did strange things when imported into QCAD too, which gives me some pause.... NanaCAD 5, the free version, imported old drawings very well, but I'm *very* concerned by the restrictive binding to a single computer with the license file. That reeks of something that could cause problems in the future.
Anyhow, just my 2 cents on things to think about when investing (your time) in a "free" product.
Do not use online CAD software. After a while they will charge you.
You can download a Autodesk Inventor student version. It's free but it has a few restrictions. But nothing to worry about.
As I said before : VERY power full.
You can download a Autodesk Inventor student version. It's free but it has a few restrictions. But nothing to worry about.
As I said before : VERY power full.
lohring
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As an old time draftsman, I graduated directly from a K&E drafting machine to Fusion 360. It's a very new experience. There are lots of great tutorials on YouTube. Of course Autodesk can probably eliminate the free version. In addition, they have captured your files in their cloud storage. My friends who use Solidworks on a limited basis have pirated versions. Maybe Autodesk thinks the help from new, inexperienced users uncovering bugs outweighs the loss of revenue. I'm on my third year on the free version. It's been great for elaborate engine designs as well as simpler designs for 3D printing. We'll see how long it lasts.
Lohring Miller
Lohring Miller
If you think about it, Autodesk got to where it is because of the pirated versions of Autocad, all the people that learned on the pirated versions bought the product when they graduated to the point where they needed a legitimate CAD package as they already knew the product.
Personally, I never used Autocad, even the free/pirated versions that I did have, I never was good on the keyboard but instead found an inexpensive program that ran on my Atari ST. Can't recall the name but it was remarkably similar to the newer packages in layout, a lot like my copy of TurboCAD V16 but 10 years earlier. That led to investigating Solidworks, again with a 'free' copy but ended up with Alibre, largely because it's 1/3 of the base price of Solidworks for the Expert version. In talking with CAD professionals that have used many different high end CAD what I've learned is that they are pretty much equivalent in functionality, they all have quirks and they all have strengths and weaknesses, a lot of what you like and use depends on what you learn on.
MrMetric
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely right.... The dirty secret is that pirated software is what helped develop the industry into the powerhouse that is today. The SPA doesn't really like to admit that, but it is absolutely true. And, yes, AutoCAD benefited from that too. You get a bunch of people used to the product and when the work for a company, they go legit. So, when the SPA talks about 'lost revenue', it really isn't very accurate because only a small portion of those folks would have purchased the product, and many of the people who ended up buying the product might *not* have done so if they hadn't been introduced to it through less than legit ways.
I used to work for a large company that produces a consumer software product that is used yearly. Before I got there, the story was that a manager wanted to 'secure' the product and went to lengths to ensure this occurred. Unfortunately, sales plummeted that year and holy hell broke loose. Why? Because people couldn't buy the product and give it to their friends. The company ended up taking an ad out in the paper to effectively apologize (in the political way that companies do) for what really amounted to enforcing licensing of the product. I heard different rumors about what happened to the manager.
Marketing, sales, and enforcement are all a triad that companies look at very carefully..... And, by the way, this is why subscriptions are so attractive to companies now. They lower the cost of entry to hopefully get the otherwise pirate revenue, and have a consistent benefit of income. Personally, however, I'm NOT a fan of subscriptions. I like to own something with a single payment. I own my house, my cars, my computers, etc. I'm old school... If I can't afford it, I don't purchase it.... So when I have to lease a piece of software, then I feel like I'm leasing a car, and I won't do that. This is why I purchased QCAD. I'd have purchased NanoCAD or Draftsight but they are subscription based.
Regarding the comment about not using online products.... I agree, but I also have to say that subscriptions are not that much different. You are still at the pricing mercy of the company. If they decide to raise the price or they go out of business, you are still up the proverbial creek. You may have the files, but you don't have a way to access them
By the way, this is a good reason to persist your files in non-native (or older) formats, if possible too. I milestoned my DWG files as DXF periodically, just because I wasn't sure how transportable DraftSight's implementation of DWG was. It turns out that this was a good idea. QCAD only did a moderate job of reading the DWG file... Not horrible, but not as clean as I'd have liked.
I used to work for a large company that produces a consumer software product that is used yearly. Before I got there, the story was that a manager wanted to 'secure' the product and went to lengths to ensure this occurred. Unfortunately, sales plummeted that year and holy hell broke loose. Why? Because people couldn't buy the product and give it to their friends. The company ended up taking an ad out in the paper to effectively apologize (in the political way that companies do) for what really amounted to enforcing licensing of the product. I heard different rumors about what happened to the manager.
Marketing, sales, and enforcement are all a triad that companies look at very carefully..... And, by the way, this is why subscriptions are so attractive to companies now. They lower the cost of entry to hopefully get the otherwise pirate revenue, and have a consistent benefit of income. Personally, however, I'm NOT a fan of subscriptions. I like to own something with a single payment. I own my house, my cars, my computers, etc. I'm old school... If I can't afford it, I don't purchase it.... So when I have to lease a piece of software, then I feel like I'm leasing a car, and I won't do that. This is why I purchased QCAD. I'd have purchased NanoCAD or Draftsight but they are subscription based.
Regarding the comment about not using online products.... I agree, but I also have to say that subscriptions are not that much different. You are still at the pricing mercy of the company. If they decide to raise the price or they go out of business, you are still up the proverbial creek. You may have the files, but you don't have a way to access them
By the way, this is a good reason to persist your files in non-native (or older) formats, if possible too. I milestoned my DWG files as DXF periodically, just because I wasn't sure how transportable DraftSight's implementation of DWG was. It turns out that this was a good idea. QCAD only did a moderate job of reading the DWG file... Not horrible, but not as clean as I'd have liked.
The best way to secure your drawings is to export them all in STP or STEP format.
Not to be used as your standard files of course.
If you do not own CAD software or for whatever reason you are forced or need to switch to other CAD software, well, STEP / STEP can be imported in all existing CAD software. Even in some 3D modelling software like 3DS, Maya,..
Not to be used as your standard files of course.
If you do not own CAD software or for whatever reason you are forced or need to switch to other CAD software, well, STEP / STEP can be imported in all existing CAD software. Even in some 3D modelling software like 3DS, Maya,..
Joseph Comunale
Member
Calum- AutoDesk is very generous to students - and will provide you with at least one (generally several) student version license.
- If you are a student at a Community College - and have an educational email address - they will accept that and let you use their student software for free.
- It's a great way to keep current with their software - and a BRILLIANT way to get their software embedded into the work place. Good Marketing Practice Autodesk!
Joe
popnrattle
Well-Known Member
I like your post and agree. The problems I have is when they replace some features that suited me at the time and have to take extra laps to use the new feature. But sometimes after a some negative responses from users they offer that old command with the word "classic". I suppose they gotta justify a new yearly version.
