Are we the fringe?

[90LX_Notch]

Is it just my experience, or are we some sort of fringe group?

When ever I show people my engines or what I'm working on they just don't seem interested. No one has ever asked to see my shop. No one really wants to know how the engines are made. I think this hobby is just so far beyond the scope of what most people can do that they can't appreciate it at all.

For example- My brother in law was over this past weekend. I showed him my current work in progress (GailInNM's Lobo Pup Twin). The one thing that he was amazed at was that I made the spring on the carb. The simplest part of the whole thing! :wall: Forget about the crankcase or any of the machined parts of the carb. "You mean you made that spring. How did you do that?" Then as I started to explain it to him, he turned his attention to another conversation that was going on.

Thank God for the members of HMEM!

 

[kustomkb]

It does seem that most don't or can't appreciate the time and skill that goes into an engine.

Maybe it's the fear of the unknown or something.

I showed my wife's, friends, husband a running vacuum engine which had a highly polished flywheel, he used the blade of a knife against the flywheel to see if he could slow it down!?? I thought to myself, I don't think we can be friends...

When I hear "ya, but what does it do?" the conversation is over.

 

[steamer]

YUP!

Most people don't "get the joke" . I'm an engineer, and most of these guys get it...but beyond that......"deer in the headlights!"

That's OK....WE don't need that..and those that do "get the joke"....make up for those that don't!

Dave

 

[moconnor]

Hello Guys,

My wife is a law professor and I used to be really nervous whenever I would have to attend social events or award ceremonies, etc.. The first few times I just kept to myself, followed the good wife around and did a lot of nodding and smiling. She wasn't real pleased with me, but I didn't really think that I would have anything in common with her colleagues. Now I am proud to be a machinist and an instructor as it was what I always wanted to do. I just assumed that no one would be interested.

One night, one of my wife's good friends from work started a conversation and was intent on finding out what I do for a living. He is a lawyer, so he has the questioning thing down pretty well. Anyway, he was fascinated when I described my shop and the projects that I am working on. Come to find out that his grandfather had a lathe in his basement and that he inherited all of his measuring tools. After that conversation, it was easy! More times than not, there is some connection to a relative who is or was a machinist and now my wife is having to drag me out of these things. Last summer, I was at a wedding of one of my wife's closest friends in Minneapolis and we were talking to one of her colleagues at the reception and the women suggested that we go have dinner sometime. Again I am thinking, what am I going to talk about with a Harvard Law Professor? Turns out, this one has his own machine shop in his basement too! It was a good night.

So lately I have had the exact opposite experience than those that have posted previously. Not sure if it has been luck or good fortune, but I don't dread these social interactions anymore. Talking about our hobby is important, especially to young people. We should all be advocates of any hobby that could encourage someone to become interested in metal working and machining. Back when I was kid, the thing that got me interested in this hobby or even the possibility of having my own lathe someday occurred when I was about ten years old. My Dad was dropping off his new hydroplane at the pin striper, who was also a antique car guy and I was tagging along as usual. I noticed a 6" Atlas lathe on the back bench and asked him about it. He went in the house and came back out with a Stuart 10V that was just beautiful and he explained how his Dad made that on the little Atlas lathe. Because he took the time to show a curious kid his lathe and some models, he opened a door of possibilities that I never knew existed. We should all endeavor to take the time to encourage people to join our ranks and show them that this is indeed possible.

Regards,
Mike

 

[Captain Jerry]

It is hard to imagine how anyone can exist without an understanding and appreciation of mechanical things but they do exist. Some of them even seem happy.

Jerry

 

[JorgensenSteam]

The general public does seem awefully far removed from things technical, probably a situation exacerbated by the fact that so much industry has migrated to China.

One of my wife's relatives is a retired lawyer, but does woodworking, and so is familiar with working with things. Most others are interested, but don't really have a concept of metal working, or a clue as to why anyone would do it.

The hardware stores are dumbing down everything, and they are more about making fashion statements out of your house, much to my wife's delight, instead of the old taps, dies, fasteners, etc. one use to see in a hardware store.

Generally, I think the hobby is prohibitively expensive for young people to get into, and it has a long learning curve. I am not sure if the next generation will pick up the torch or not. I don't see many young people in the photos at the shows.

People who design engines seem to be even more rare. Generally people don't want to talk about design, just the build aspects of an engine.

I started to look at this hobby seriously a few years ago when I inheirited my Dad's equipment, and I assumed that everyone just built steam engines from scratch like my Dad did. I have been surprised by how few do that.

I was glad to find HMEM, and have tried to leave a paper trail of what I have learned on the internet, so the younger generation can follow.

I think one way to lure some youngsters into the hobby would be through 3D modeling, since you don't need the initial expense of a machine shop, but could still design and virtually build and run engines. It would be easier to transition into building engines if you had made them first with a modeling program.

 

[pmerritt]

As a full time academic researcher in the biological sciences, I get the blank stare on both the work and hobby fronts. I can kill a conversation like no other!

My father-in-law spent some time as a machinist in his youth and seems to appreciate the work that goes into engine making, though he shows little interest in my shop. My father seems genuinely impressed and has a nice woodworking shop but also shows little interest in the shop. I do have one friend, also an academician, who has a machine shop in his basement, but our interests are quite different and we don't stay in touch very well.

Colleagues, forget it. They are clueless. I agree with Jerry and have a hard time understanding blissful ignorance on matters technical/mechanical. As others have said, thank goodness for HMEM!

Peter

 

[MachineTom]

I find that so few people I know ever work with their hands, and brains at the same time. My son inlaw works with his hands, but the brain seems to not be engaged when doing so. Each year I hire a couple of the neighbors kids to help me clean the shop. I must first teach them how a broom works. None have asked what does this machine do, what do you make etc. The next door neighbor is a truck mechanic, but his son has no interest at all in mechanical things.

 

[steamer]

Hey Mike,

Ya know, every once in a while I get a kid at a show or such events that just amazes me.

One hot August afternoon, I was in the begining of the 1/2 hour run on "Sabino" as Volunteer Engineer. Talk about a cross section of people....we would get all types. Those who really were interested in Sabino and her engine room and those that were'nt.

One dad looked at his son and said "Imagine being so hard up that you have to shovel coal for a living!" :rant: I thought the Chief was going blow a pipe on that one. :big:

One day this one boy about 9 comes up to the railing over the engine room and says. very politely...."Excuse me Sir?....May I ask you a question?" ( OK how many of you have been called "Sir" by a 9 year old kid lately?)

His diction and sentence structure were impeccable...as were his manners....he really got my attention....he proceeded to ask me some simple questions about how the engine operated and why I was doing what I was doing....but then he continued.....from there every question was carefully constructed from my previous answer.....I mean this kids gears were spinning! After about 20 minutes, he knew how the engine worked, what most of the valves did, what the firing tools were used for , where we bought our coal and what the bell code was!...with no intervention or assistance of any kind from a parent.

OK...I look around and there leaning against the forward bulkhead about 15 feet away was what was obviously this kids Dad....between the smile on his face and the degree by which his chest was sticking out...it was obvious! :big:

Awesome kid....it was a "makes ya believe there is hope for humanity" kind of encounter.


So be kind, and don't be afraid to "let them in" because...3 out of 10 at least are WAY worth the trip for sure!

They're out there!

Dave

 

[PerryRT]

I think I would go with "subculture", not "fringe".

The average media-soaked human these days doesn't have any appreciation for the process of how things come to be. They just arrive at the door (FedEx overnight) and are used until they break, then discarded and upgraded. This is a big difference from what I've come to call the "first DIY movement" in the 1940's and 1950's. Back then, it was assumed that if you wanted something, you might have to build it from scratch, possibly assemble it, you would definitely maintain it, and certainly repair it. Today, my 18 month old cellphone is considered two or three generations obsolete, with no replacement parts available. However, there has also been a resurgance of interest in the last ... five years? decade? ... in "artisinal crafts". I've seen it in cooking, in electronics, and here as well. Some people are becoming more interested in process than the end result. Try a search on "the maker movement" sometime. They're out there!

My wife, incidentally, refers to this as "tool critical mass" - in other words, I now have acquired enough tools to at least take a pretty decent swing at repairing most basic problems I'm going to run into. (Either that, or she suspects I may explode someday...)

Now, the problem specific to our hobby is what economists call "barriers to entry". By the time you get equipped for a variety machining, you're probably a thousand dollars into the hobby (or more!), and (in the absence of a mentor or helper/co-dependent) that's frustrating for a lot of folks, I'm sure. For that reason, I suspect that the numbers of home shop machinists will always remain smaller than, say, electronic hobbists, or woodworkers. But it's not just us making stuff out there, and I honestly think that the membership in our hobby is likely to stabilize and grow in the next 20 years.

The Internet is a double-edged sword. While studies have said that it causes a measurable change in the way brains process information (and not for the better) it also allows people to gather based not on location, but interest. I can find more information about machining processes (for free) here than probably any apprentice could fifty years ago. So hang in there, I suspect it will get better!

 

[Mosey]

I recently hired a neighborhood kid (15 years old, 6'-2")to help me move my machines around in the shop and clean up some trash. He cuts wood, mows lawns, and races toy monster trucks and go-karts after school. When he came into the shop and saw the machines, he almost hurt himself falling down. He wanted to know about everything, and respectfully asked.
There's hope. And I will gladly teach him what I know.

 

[flyingtractors1]

We may well be a fringe group or subculture - And well on the way to extinction due in part to the fact that our culture has "progressed" from an industrial to an informational based society. It is hard to find much of anything made in USA these days, while "so much industry has migrated to China", India and other places. Our shops and factories just aren't doing it anymore - except for the Japanese cars that we build here, And our schools are, in large part, closing down their Industrial Arts course offerings and auctioning off their equipment for pennies on the dollar - and having trouble finding buyers. Our hobby / industry appears to be headed the way of the blacksmith trade. We in the hobby aren't doing enough to promote it either - even with forums like ours. We tend to isolate ourselves concentrating on our incredible high level projects searching for and getting well deserved accolades from each other and typically fialing to acknowledge the efforts and interests of beginners. Our behaviors are typically more exclussive than inclussive, and we wonder why youngsters - newbies of all ages become disheartened and pursue other interests. Maybe if we took greater interest in those who would emulate us, our interests would survive eminent extinction and even reverse the apparent trend.

 

[Andy]

If we are a fringe group or subculture then that is OK with me and I'm glad to be part of it. Rather that than belong to the mainstream of people who, as Kurt Vonnegut observed many years ago 'can't put the screw cap back on a jar without crossing the threads' (or words to that effect). From my dealings with people this would seem to be true.

I think of this often when I've just got that 'inner glow' having repaired something easily for a few pounds (or nothing) instead of buying a new one for £100 or more.

 

[mu38&Bg#]

This might put things into perspective. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...matic-change-education-economy-135944654.html

In 1940 24% of working people were involved in manufacturing. Today, there are 3 times as many people working but only 10% are involved in manufacturing. There are roughly the same umber of people working in manufacturing as there was 70 years ago.

 

[Smifffy]

My experiences are a bit more positive.

Most (not all!) of my friends or my wife's friends husbands (mouthfull!) have been given a tour of my workshop and shown my loco. Pretty much all were interested in what I am building and my machine tools and most do ask me every now and then how I am progressing. Like wise with colleagues at work.

I did have a carpenter come and do some work for me a couple of years back, but neither he or his mate showed any interest in my workshop, which really did surprise me.

Smifffy

 

[Foozer]

With 10,000 of us old ferts turning 65 per day now, This Fringe group should be picking up some Steam



Robert

 

[tel]

It's also a matter of location. Living in a rural area there is probably more interest around here (especially when 'they' want something done) than there would be if I was stuck in the 'burbs somewhere.

 

[rake60]

It is a fringe thing because most people just don't understand what it takes.

Most people have become members of the disposable goods mentality.
If you need or break something, go to WalMart and buy a new one!
Make one? WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT?

Nobody seems to realize that somebody DID make it in the first place.

The blind spot is not in limited to machining.
I read a post from an animal rights activist condemning hunters.
"Some hunters say they hunt for meat. They should buy their meat at a grocery
grocery store where no animals are harmed as modern, civilized people do."

Uh... Yeah....

Rick

 

[90LX_Notch]

This topic has taken a few interesting turns. My original post was about how no one ever expresses much of an interest in my engines. I have pictures on my phone of engines in different stages of machining that I try to show people when I talk about our hobby. Not many are interested. Which brings us back to being on the fringe.

Since it came up, how do you promote something that people don't seem overly interested in? Forget the costs or mentoring. If they don't see the cool factor in making a working engine, how would you get them involved in the hobby? Obviously, something like Steve's "Little Demon" V8 will get people's attention. But, we are not all at that build level. (But I am working my way there. Step by step.)

 

[Maryak]

I guess every hobby, sport, pastime etc. is the fringe to those who have no interest in it.

For those of us who were/are professionally trained and who worked/work in mechanical engineering the phrase "Busman's Holiday" springs to mind.

The glazed looks we get are probably equal to the glazed looks we give to those with pastimes in which we have no interest.

Best Regards
Bob