Ageless 9 and 18 Radial

[ninefinger]

The first set of rings I ever tried making were (accidentally) from ductile cast iron. Here is my experience from using that material.
It didn't work as intended as a piston ring as it hasn't got enough spring in it, and the act of spreading it to fit over the piston permanently deformed it even after setting it by heat treating.
If you do use the ductile cast iron please let us know how it works out.
Mike

 

[rlo1]

Tried using ductile cast iron with much better results than standard gray cast iron. The ductile rings tolerate manipulation much better than the gray cast. I tried all different hardening techniques with the gray and it always turned out brittle. The ductile iron machines nicely but is a mess to clean up.

Used this coating on the rings. Worked great! Thanks for this forum where I read about it. This stuff is available at Brownnells.com

 

[rlo1]

These are the rings after taking them off the heat treatment tool. These rings fit fine and did not break even though I fell asleep and heat treated for 6 hrs instead of 3! I have not cleaned them yet in this picture. This residue cleaned up easily with soap and water. One trick I like to use is to scrub dirty parts like these rings in hand cleaner. I use a standard hand cleaner in my shop and it does help with small dirty parts like piston rings. I will just lather up the parts in my hands with a glob of hand cleaner and it works great. Started a large batch of rings in hopes that I finally solved the problems I was having. Btw, this table top kiln is awesome!

 

[R Degen]

Something I always did when heat treating rings is to wrap them in tool wrap and paper inside the wrap the paper burns out the oxygen rings come out real clean .

 

[rlo1]

Hmmmm, I remember you mentioning that before. I will do it on the next batch. Thank you!

 

[stevehuckss396]

Problem with them is they don't break. They bend and deform. Once installed, if they were "over opened up" they my have bent and no longer fit the bore because they may not be round any more. Also hopefully they didn't open further as that would increase wall pressure and my wear out prematurely and possibly damage the cylinder walls.

Maybe give the gray iron one more try without taking a nap and see if you have better luck before you try the ductile rings. Not telling you what to do, just telling you what I would do.

 

[Bentwings]

Tried using ductile cast iron with much better results than standard gray cast iron. The ductile rings tolerate manipulation much better than the gray cast. I tried all different hardening techniques with the gray and it always turned out brittle. The ductile iron machines nicely but is a mess to clean up. View attachment 135436View attachment 135437Used this coating on the rings. Worked great! Thanks for this forum where I read about it. This stuff is available at Brownnells.com
View attachment 135438View attachment 135439

Nice work !
Byron

 

[rlo1]

Here is the oil wiper cycle that I ran after drilling all the 0.0315 holes.

 

[rlo1]

I am trying the paper wrap on this batch.

 

[rlo1]

Decided to stay with the ductile iron. I feel that it is better having something that’s more mallialable than something that is brittle. I am really afraid to have a chunk of a piston ring show up in my oil bath. Especially after the engine has some time on it. I think the more flexible the ring is is a safer option to go in the long run. I tried 15 different variations on heat treating the gray iron. Every variation whether it was short heat treatment long heat treatment red hot instant cool slow cool. It did not matter. They all were brittle and too brittle to use on a 1 inch piston. I needed to keep the groove in the oil ring. I feel that the design was intended to have this ring function as a oil wiper ring like is used in today’s engines. The groove really weakens the ring. I feel like the softer iron is a better option to use and keep the functionality of the oil wiper intact. I did notice that the longer you heat soak the ductile iron the softer it got. So you have to find a balance between hardness of the ring and softness (mailability) of the iron so it’s not brittle. This is quite the learning experience. I did not have any idea that I was gonna be spending this much time on little round metal rings.

 

[stevehuckss396]

I looked at the drawings again and didn't see a groove. Was it described in the machining steps but left out of the drawing for clarity? I see the hole and counter bore but not a groove. Can you post a pic of the part of the plans that shows the required groove?

 

[R Degen]

rio1 you have to use tool wrap which is .002 thick stainless steel you can get it in a roll or in a bag you place your parts inside the bag ,wrap the parts in paper place inside the stainless steel bag seal it up then place inside the furnace .

 

[rlo1]

I looked at the drawings again and didn't see a groove. Was it described in the machining steps but left out of the drawing for clarity? I see the hole and counter bore but not a groove. Can you post a pic of the part of the plans that shows the required groove?

Here is the operation Instructions from the plans

It clearly mentions a groove to help with engine lubrication (#4). The drawings are tough to interpret as I think the designer has such a good 3D awareness and that is why he drew it that way. These plans are not simple, you have to really pay attention to the details. I sometimes will think about the next operation for days before I start setting it up. My OCD comes in handy sometime. I am convinced that the Author intentionally gives specifications once so that it is not obvious what the callout is or getting the dimensions correct. You have to always look at the big picture on these drawings. I have CAD'd nearly every part in Solidworks. It is a really good way to soak in the design and the designers Intent. Here is the drawing with more information.

The Groove on the drawing took me awhile to understand the geometry. I like the groove design and thing that in the long run they will lubricate the cylinder walls nicely.

Here it is in SW

I liked the wrap of the rings idea for the kiln, I will wrap it with SS next time. I am going to dig further on this Cast Iron Annealing issue as it seems that there are several techniques that people use. I sure have put a lot of Iron through my Tormach 15L CNC lathe lately. It is a battle to keep it lubricated and clean. You cannot let these chips sit, it will rust together in a day or two. I am using terry cloth to line the bottom of the lathe to help with filtering the coolant before it goes to the basket and makes cleanup so much better. Makes a huge difference.

Getting close to starting final assembly of the drive train. Everything fits up but now it is time to take it all apart and do it the final time. I still have ignition systems to build and tons of other stuff. Really enjoying this project.

 

[Bentwings]

Tried using ductile cast iron with much better results than standard gray cast iron. The ductile rings tolerate manipulation much better than the gray cast. I tried all different hardening techniques with the gray and it always turned out brittle. The ductile iron machines nicely but is a mess to clean up. View attachment 135436View attachment 135437Used this coating on the rings. Worked great! Thanks for this forum where I read about it. This stuff is available at Brownnells.com
View attachment 135438View attachment 135439

Nice work automotive rings have been ductile iron for as long as I can remember they began spray costing with moly in he 50’s stainless and hard chrome came later. We use chromed stainless dyke rings now even double dyke top rings second rings have had various tapers built into them oil rings are multi piece spacer and chrome faced stainless rings themselves they have not changed much . Diesels have their own rings sometime s 4 or more they don’t wear out my one ton dusky has 450k on it doesn’t use oil or smoke it doesn’t blow black clouds like some do .
I hope your radial works out well I like talking to hogson he really knows his engines and he likes to talk about them when you call him . I wanted to do the 18 cylinder version but I just can’t be in the shop like I want to . There have been some fits and starts of the R4360 but I have never seen or heard of a completed one . If you have countless hours to do itbinghinknitvwould be possible to build a double 18 cylinder but connecting them would be a project all in its own just as it was on the full sized one . Using larger versions ofvthe couplers I’m using would be possible but the more advanced gear coupler would be my choice . I used 4 of them in industry to couple four really big electric motors together for a steel wire drawing line . Surprising they worked out of the box quiet simple maintenance . I used race car metric timing belts too even race car pulleys they were bout 1/4 the cost of industrial cast iron ones and a bunch lighter I would not want to have to buy the electrical connection wire today .

 

[Sprocket]

I've used heavy duty aluminum foil over the paper. It won't melt at these temps and is cheaper (a lot) and easier to get than stainless foil.
Doug

 

[stevehuckss396]

Yes sir there it is. Notch is not the word I would have used for a groove. I will have to fix my rings before moving on with cracking and stress relief. To be honest I didn't understand what needed to be notched. The groove on the drawing looks much thinner than the dimensioned .025.

Thanks for the help.

 

[rlo1]

Full Disclosure, I made the compression rings 0.03125" and Oil wiper Rings 0.0625" thick with a 0.03125 groove. The dimensions called out seemed very difficult on the tooling sizing and I wanted to use off the shelf grooving tools.

 

[Bentwings]

Full Disclosure, I made the compression rings 0.03125" and Oil wiper Rings 0.0625" thick with a 0.03125 groove. The dimensions called out seemed very difficult on the tooling sizing and I wanted to use off the shelf grooving tools.

I think that’s wise choice I’d do the same
I think the clearance is more important.

In the race world we did some crazy things with pistons . Back then there were few coatings available pistons were of weld able aluminum so if we burned them I would weld up the burned areas and re cut grooves. To fit available rings. Sometimes a hard spot was created so the ring groove was not perfect I often just cut it for a different size some times cut wide enough for two rings. We had a sponsor so supplies were more or less unlimited. I made a fixture to hold the ring so I could cut it. Trepan I think it’s called now then made a matching piston groove now called dyke ring/ piston groove . Real dyke rings were chrome faced stainless steel . But badly burned pistons and ones that had been repaired several times were more or less expendable a good hone job and you could get 2% leak down that was good enough for a “ grenade” win at all cost final run. Often ended with a fire. I only got burned twice once required hospital . We were “ invincible” then . Didn’t learn” fear” until packing M 14 around then memories of being part of the “ goon squad” in hockey took over . Pay back was the name of the game.
Byron

 

[Bentwings]

Decided to stay with the ductile iron. I feel that it is better having something that’s more mallialable than something that is brittle. I am really afraid to have a chunk of a piston ring show up in my oil bath. Especially after the engine has some time on it. I think the more flexible the ring is is a safer option to go in the long run. I tried 15 different variations on heat treating the gray iron. Every variation whether it was short heat treatment long heat treatment red hot instant cool slow cool. It did not matter. They all were brittle and too brittle to use on a 1 inch piston. I needed to keep the groove in the oil ring. I feel that the design was intended to have this ring function as a oil wiper ring like is used in today’s engines. The groove really weakens the ring. I feel like the softer iron is a better option to use and keep the functionality of the oil wiper intact. I did notice that the longer you heat soak the ductile iron the softer it got. So you have to find a balance between hardness of the ring and softness (mailability) of the iron so it’s not brittle. This is quite the learning experience. I did not have any idea that I was gonna be spending this much time on little round metal rings.

I agree we have used ductile second rings in the racers for as long as I can remember. Yes I’ve seen a few in the oil pan along with much ofvthe burned piston it makes a big mess.
Byron

 

[rlo1]

Decided to make rocker covers. Added some grooves for curb appeal Three at a time. The grooves are 0.03125 wide and take quite a bit of time to machine due to how fragile the end mills that size are.