Black Widow V8 difficulty?

neil_1821 · Oct 15, 2023

I’ve been wanting to build a V8 engine at some point along the way, although I’m currently in the middle of building a 5” Lion at the moment but there is an opportunity for me to buy the castings and drawings for the Black Widow V8.

I’ve been trying to do some research but there is very little out there and I’m wondering if anyone could post any pictures or their experience on how difficult it wound be to make? I initially thought I’d do the little demon V8 but after seeing a few videos on YouTube the black widow looks and sounds magnificent and I know there are very few casting kits still available.

Cessnadriver · Nov 11, 2023

I just recently purchased the castings and drawings for the Black Widow. It seems like there is some information missing. Curious if anyone has details on the distributer drive and rotor? Also looking for pushrod details and well as the lifters. I also don’t see any information on the water pump/oil pump pulleys and belt. I maybe too spoiled after working with the Little Demon plans.

k2steve · Dec 12, 2023

Cessnadriver said:
I just recently purchased the castings and drawings for the Black Widow. It seems like there is some information missing. Curious if anyone has details on the distributer drive and rotor? Also looking for pushrod details and well as the lifters. I also don’t see any information on the water pump/oil pump pulleys and belt. I maybe too spoiled after working with the Little Demon plans.

I am in the same boat as you, I don't understand the plans or stuff is missing as you stated. M y trouble is in the same areas as you stated. If you come across easier to read (understand) plans, please forward a copy to me.....Steve

Cessnadriver · Dec 13, 2023

I am working on my own cad drawings. I am starting on the block here shortly and work on drawings for the missing items. I was given a phone number for one of the original designers and I have yet to call him. I have been too busy with my full time job. There are more in the same boat so maybe between us all we can get this completed. ....... Mark

k2steve · Jul 8, 2024

Cessnadriver said:
I am working on my own cad drawings. I am starting on the block here shortly and work on drawings for the missing items. I was given a phone number for one of the original designers and I have yet to call him. I have been too busy with my full time job. There are more in the same boat so maybe between us all we can get this completed. ....... Mark

Have you been able to do anything with this project yet?

Cessnadriver · Jul 9, 2024

k2steve said:
Have you been able to do anything with this project yet?

My plan was to take the drawings and redo them in Fusion which I did start. I started with the block and than the heads and noticed that the combustion XO chambers do not line up with the cylinder bores per the drawings, so the heads need redone. The mount holes line up but not the combustion chambers. I did talk with Dwight and got the impression you makes things fit as you go. He got me in touch with another gentleman and he was going to look for the original drawings. So far no luck. This has been put on the back burner for now as I am busy with my full time job. I will keep plugging at it when I get time.

Mark

zman92020 · Sep 27, 2024

I machined one of the first castings sets approx 15 years ago when the only 'plans' were hand drawn and the dimensions were just a hint of what you needed to do. . It was a real seat of the pants project. . .just as has been posted on this thread.
I am now starting another one. . this time I managed to find some real CAD drawings but once again the dimensions of the individual parts don't seem to line up with other assemblies. . . You have to start with the block and double check all stated dimensions 2 to 3 times against the crank and head dimensions for fit .
This time I made a fixture to fit the crank bores so the block is perfectly vertical and horizontal to the axis of my mill. . . Then the block can have a final milling to the pan, head and intake surfaces too insure parallelism.

A typical problem is the main bearing web panels are not wide enough to allow machining to meet the crank bearing locations while keeping the bearings a proper distances. . seems to me this is where you have to alter the crank / block dimensions to fit the casting dimensions to the crank. . .
If nothing else the whole process is a great mental exercise

Cessnadriver · Sep 27, 2024

zman92020 said:
I machined one of the first castings sets approx 15 years ago when the only 'plans' were hand drawn and the dimensions were just a hint of what you needed to do. . It was a real seat of the pants project. . .just as has been posted on this thread.
I am now starting another one. . this time I managed to find some real CAD drawings but once again the dimensions of the individual parts don't seem to line up with other assemblies. . . You have to start with the block and double check all stated dimensions 2 to 3 times against the crank and head dimensions for fit .
This time I made a fixture to fit the crank bores so the block is perfectly vertical and horizontal to the axis of my mill. . . Then the block can have a final milling to the pan, head and intake surfaces too insure parallelism.

A typical problem is the main bearing web panels are not wide enough to allow machining to meet the crank bearing locations while keeping the bearings a proper distances. . seems to me this is where you have to alter the crank / block dimensions to fit the casting dimensions to the crank. . .
If nothing else the whole process is a great mental exercise

I would love to see the fixture if you care to share?

casted · Monday at 12:28 AM

Cessnadriver said:
I am working on my own cad drawings. I am starting on the block here shortly and work on drawings for the missing items. I was given a phone number for one of the original designers and I have yet to call him. I have been too busy with my full time job. There are more in the same boat so maybe between us all we can get this completed. ....... Mark

I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated. Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966

Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.

GreenTwin · Monday at 8:43 AM

casted said:
I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated. Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966

Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.

It is not clear at all what you are saying in this post.

Gary Martin purchased the patterns and drawings for the "Black Widow V8" from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
Gary offers casting kits for the "Black Widow V8" with drawings on his website.

There was a "Challenger C-600" listed in the Coles catalog.

The topic of this thread seems to be the "Black Widow V8", and so are you saying people cannot come up with their own drawings for the Black Widow V8?
Are you also saying you own the copyrights to the "Black Widow V8"?

If the Challenger C-600 was sold by Coles, would that mean that Coles owns the copyright to the castings and drawings?

The Challenger C-600 and the Black Widow V8 don't look like the same engine.
The Black Widow appears to be an overhead valve engine, and the Challenger appears to be a flathead ?

How is it that "I am the rights owner for the Challenger, all rights for the Black Widow are from this engine" (the Challenger).
Can you explain this ? It is not clear at all.

Please clarify your statements so that we can understand exactly what you are taking issue with.

Thanks,
.

stanstocker · Monday at 8:46 AM

So the plans are wrong, the castings get made wrong because of this, and you are saying nobody is allowed to figure out how to make it right? Maybe you should exercise your rights to the plans by correcting them rather than telling others not to.

gbritnell · Monday at 9:03 AM

Well said Stan! The drawings are mine and they are trash but nobody is allowed to fix them? Expletive!!!!

GreenTwin · Monday at 10:39 AM

Stan and George, it is not clear which engine and which set of drawings you guys are referring to.
The Black Widow and the Challenger are being discussed.

Gary Martin purchased the patterns and drawings for the "Black Widow V8" from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
Gary offers casting kits for the "Black Widow V8" with drawings on his website.

Are you guys referring to the "Black Widow V8" drawings ?

I don't think Gary Martin has any problems with someone making their own CAD drawings for the Black Widow V8.

.

casted · Monday at 11:16 AM

casted said:
I don't advise this I am,the rights owner for the challenger all rights for the black widow are from this engine and were violated. Gary martian does not have the rights or the designer that goes back to 1966

Don't. This is to all Dwight Giles and ken Hurst did this.

I have the copy rights gary does not

casted · Monday at 11:17 AM

gbritnell said:
Well said Stan! The drawings are mine and they are trash but nobody is allowed to fix them? Expletive!!!!

Yep

stanstocker · Monday at 11:19 AM

GreenTwin said:
Stan and George, it is not clear which engine and which set of drawings you guys are referring to.
The Black Widow and the Challenger are being discussed.

Gary Martin purchased the patterns and drawings for the "Black Widow V8" from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
Gary offers casting kits for the "Black Widow V8" with drawings on his website.

Are you guys referring to the "Black Widow V8" drawings ?

I don't think Gary Martin has any problems with someone making their own CAD drawings for the Black Widow V8.

.

A guy using the handle "Casted" has claims to have the rights to the Challenger and claims those rights are violated by the Black Widow. He then claimed "gary martian" doesn't have the rights to the Black Widow. A very odd claim from a guy with 4 posts total who came out of nowhere. The claim was not very clear and sort of rambled with punctuation in odd places, but I think he claims to own both, alleging the Black Widow as derivative work based on the challenger.

This guy has not responded for your initial request for clarification, but I think these are his claims. Who knows, could just be a troll.

casted · Monday at 11:29 AM

stanstocker said:
So the plans are wrong, the castings get made wrong because of this, and you are saying nobody is allowed to figure out how to make it right? Maybe you should exercise your rights to the plans by correcting them rather than telling others not to.

Nope it's a life time mess. Next life time.i

stanstocker said:
A guy using the handle "Casted" has claims to have the rights to the Challenger and claims those rights are violated by the Black Widow. He then claimed "gary martian" doesn't have the rights to the Black Widow. A very odd claim from a guy with 4 posts total who came out of nowhere. The claim was not very clear and sort of rambled with punctuation in odd places, but I think he claims to own both, alleging the Black Widow as derivative work based on the challenger.

This guy has not responded for your initial request for clarification, but I think these are his claims. Who knows, could just be a troll.

I did and I am,not nice people here I see. Lol

GreenTwin · Monday at 11:56 AM

Gary Martin purchased the patterns and drawings for the "Black Widow V8" from Dwight Giles, who was in partnership with Ken Hurst.
So I guess some explanation is needed about why that does not give Gary Martin the copyright for the Black Widow ?

I don't know how to resolve this with an unknown party "casted".
There is no way to even verify who this is, much less verify the copyright claims being made.

Please offer something more to clarify the situation, other than just the statement "I own the Black Widow copyright".

Given that Gary Martin is also claiming the Black Widow V8 copyrights, I think it is reasonable to ask for clarification and information so that this item can be resolved one way or the other.

.

Jasonb · Monday at 1:18 PM

So which one of these gentlemen are you Casted?

https://craftsmanshipmuseum.com/exhibit/challenger-v8-prototype-engine/

GreenTwin · Monday at 1:41 PM

Some information about the Challenger (not about the Black Widow) is located here:

.https://www.flickr.com/photos/15794235@N06/10822272464/.

Says the copyrights were purchased by Coles Power Models.

The First Challenger V8, mid 1960s

Machinist Alfred Bachtold began making this engine, but needed help to complete it. He formed a loose partnership with pattern maker Clayton Thoms and designer Mr. Dettrick (first name unknown). Half-way through the project, the three men disagreed on how they would share profits from engine sales, so the partnership ended. Bachtold bought out the other two, and gave the prototype to Thoms.

The prototype is made of castings from the head down that remained part of the final design. The top end parts were machined by Bachtold from solid aluminum. The timing gear cover has the letters T/B cast into it, denoting Thoms and Bachtold.

In 1968, Lancer Engineering purchased the patterns and tooling from Bachtold. Lancer completed the patterns for the head, intake and exhaust manifolds and began to sell casting kits for the engine. A few years later the rights were purchased by Coles Power Models in Ventura California where the kits were sold until they went out of business in 2017.

Black Widow V8 difficulty?

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The First Challenger V8, mid 1960s​

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The First Challenger V8, mid 1960s