why people like low speed hit and miss engine?

[Steamchick]

Hi MRA, Just for historical accuracy, in the UK (or the "old country" as many colonials call it), we have used "natural gas" - from the subterranean gas and oil-fields here - instead of "coal gas" that was phased-out for public consumption in the 1960s. There was a national changeover of every gas appliance needing new jets - or in some cases scrapped - due to the change in pressure, and change of every meter in every household and factory. - I remember it well.
However, a steel works with Coke plant would use their own produced Coal-gas - a by-product from the manufacture of the Coke they wanted in vast quantities. Even the last of the Coke works was phased out of the UK in the 1980s. (Last used in making COKE for sale to Sweden and Norway, who would not burn Coal because of "acid rain" bad publicity among the tree huggers. We then got blamed for allowing the "smoke" from these Coke plants causing their acid rainfall! - But they wanted our Coke because their legislation had banned their use of coal - for making their own coke....).
But I do agree that Coal gas ( a mix on Methane - Ch4 - and hydrogen - H2) is much easier to ignite than Propane (C3H8) or Butane (C4H10). But Acetylene is much the same as Coal gas for combustion in engines... as it ignites very easily! (mixture ratio insensitive!). It is easier to make Acetylene from carbide that coal gas from coal... but you could risk a large explosion and make your own? Get a coal fire going, red hot, then shut-off the air and add water/steam and make "water-gas"... which you collect into a vessel that has water seals to prevent leakage... Nah... too dangerous! - You'd probably die while trying!
You could of course try a bubbler with a jar of petrol, where the intake air "bubbles" through liquid petrol when the air/fuel mix is sucked into the engine... (Another way to die?). Some wierd people post reports that "their Truck engines run better and more economically than on the original carburettor"! - The internet is never wrong?
K2

 

[MRA]

I'm in the UK Steamchick - I expect as usual I was a bit unclear, I wanted to get over the idea that the atmospheric engines (thanks for reminding me of the right name) were designed for coal gas, long before North Sea gas came along - but of course lots of people here know that already. On my way to work, is the 'Gasworks Wall' from the song 'Dirty Old Town' which strangely enough is still there, although you'd have to be in the know as the gas holders (for the last 50 years or so holding natural gas, rather than the coal gas originally made in retorts on the site) were pulled down a couple of years ago. We have some big propane tanks at the museum, and are slowly getting around to plumbing everything up so as to avoid red bottles all over the place. Lots of activity with the pipe-threading machine, gas tape, and a manometer to be really sure!

That's interesting, about the coke plant for export to Scandanavia. What 'carbon neutral' (which I support, and think has to happen) will do to small users like museums (and especially steam railways) I don't yet imagine. We haven't tried making biodiesel yet, although I have a diesel motorbike on the road in which I use filtered waste veg oil as a fuel extender at 50%. I am sure the museum diesels would run on it straight, some of them were designed to run (once warm) on little more than tar.

 

[MRA]

.

 

[Steamchick]

Hi MRA.
On running diesels on Veg. oil. There is an issue with modern - high tech injection pumps and injectors.... - for emissions.

1. The Veg oil - while it has recently become "fuel from sun energy" - has compounds in it that do not burn as "cleanly" as refined diesel fuel; for MOTOR use.
2. Modern ROAD MOTOR diesel fuel (DERV fuel) contains many additives: e.g. a small percentage of "cleverer" chemical (can't remember its name) to aid ignition - especially cold starting - but actually starts the ignition uo to full load so a cleaner flame front is developed. The VEG fuel equivalent additive is a coffee cup full of "Turps substitute" per imperial gallon (8 pints for the colonials. 4.5 litres for continental readers).
3. DERV has waxes removed - that, remaining in VEG oil, gum-up engines and do not burn cleanly, as they are more complex hydrocarbons. There are also proteins in VEG oil that also contribute to exhaust pollution, due to poorer combustion.
4. Other additives include corrosion inhibitors, etc. and "lubricants" - to enhance the lubricity of the oil (otherwise the oil film breaks down under extreme pressure and you get rapid and excessive wear of injectors and injection pumps!).
5. Sulphur, and other "nasty" minerals are filtered out (these are actually in solution in the oil as chemical compounds, - which break down and re-combine chemically to adversely affect exhaust post-treatment 2-way catalysts & NOx traps).... etc.).
6. The net effect on a Volvo (Or Renault?) diesel tested with Home-made "Veg.Oil" fuel was 10 times more wear.... - Can't remember the source, it may have been a magazine, which is press, so what you believe you believe...
7. Basically, you are not saving the planet because you are "robbing Peter to save Paul" - IMHO...
8. DERV FUEL has about 100 years of technical (chemical refining and additive) development - allied with the same in engine and exhaust treatment technology - to be commercially as clean as is practical in today's world. Typically, modern diesels are about 10% more efficient than petrol engines at producing power for road vehicles - Mostly due to the higher temperature of combustion - Which is as good as it gets compared to Petrol equivalents: so "well done" on running a diesel motorcycle. But riding style, distances, and speeds, as well as quality and fequency of gear changes, etc. can make diesels worse than petrol engines for the same journeys. - Therefore those are more significant for CO2 production than having a diesel engine.
9. The cleaner option is a battery motorcycle, re-charged from your own combined solar panel and wind powered recharging system.
10. But at least you are "recycling" waste VEG oil... Better to recycle it to the people who refine waste veg oil into road fuel additive, as they take out the nasties, and make it into a cleaner fuel.

But that is only my opinion (I was only involved with emissions testing of Diesel, petrol and battery electric cars for about 15 years... including studying fuel specifications.). I do not know all the facts available on the internet.... some possibly published by experts...
K2

 

[MRA]

Ah, you know what you're doing, I'm just spuddling in the shed on a very low income! I don't see any performance or economy change (once hot - I start it on DERV) at 50%, but that's pure anecdote - I have no means of (or knowledge, for) measuring that beyond 'feel', the speedo and normal user mpg measurements at fill-up. Beyond 50% it gets more lumpy. It's a 30 year old IDI engine with a Bosch-VE clone mechanical injection pump - as a fuel of the future its only interest is to me personally, and it's only cheap when people give me veggie oil for free. I mentioned it here for interest as I wonder what museums will do when petrol stations start to run down in 8 years' time and fuel presumably starts to get very expensive. For modellers, that's much less of an issue - perhaps the future will be a few running models (we have rather a lot) and some static full-size exhibits (we have rather more).

 

[Steamchick]

I strongly recommend you pay hard cash either for DERV fuel, or a lubricant additive for the volume of DERV you replace with VEG OIL. You are simply wearing out the fuel pump and injectors otherwise.... which will cost more in future. Frankly, I can see the point of businesses using technology and plant processes to make fuel from something that is waste, or for domestic use in an oil burner for cooking or heat. But many products used by large utilities (e.g. The sewage works that generates electricity from gases from waste, or the granaries that mill waste husks and blow then into engines as fuel, etc.) all have very high maintenance costs to off-set the potential profits from burning "waste". And they have relatively huge exhaust treatment plants. Not something you can do on a 30 year old motorcycle.
But what do I know? Who cares? Don't use any fuel if you want to save the planet. Grow your own food without mineral fertilizers, don't heat your house, etc. And turn off the electricity supply to your home. I am sure that would be a more useful contribution than my prattling on about stuff!
Just stay happy with whatever you choose to do.
Cheers!
K2

 

[Steamchick]

Diesel fuel lube additives...
Maybe Liquid Moly 5122 stuff?
Or Redex diesel additive?
Etc.
K2

 

[ccolby]

Ohh.... I thought the "other" cycle was the Carnot cycle, or BI-cycle, tricycle, ...etc.
Note: The various Atkinson's cycles (at least 3 I think?) are all "suck-squeeze-bang-blow like the 4-stroke Otto and Carnot cycles, however, they accomplish this by linkages so the main shaft only rotates once per cycle. - Just like a ported 2-stroke, that combines the "intake-squeeze" into 1 half of crank rotation, and "bang-blow" into the second half of crank rotation.
Theoretically, the Atkinsons "cycle" is not a new combustion cycle, just a piston-motion alternative arrangement. It uses the Otto-cycle for the thermo-dynamic cycle, that Otto invented.

But never-the-less, Atkinson cycle engines, in the 3 mains forms (see Wiked-pedia) do have that "wierd" attraction when you watch them..! - Enjoy making one! - See other threads on this site!
K2

You may be missing the distinguishing feature of the Atkinsom Cycle, that each of the four strokes of the cycle is a different length. The power stroke is the longest, giving a greater expansion ratio (and therefore higher theoretical efficiency) than does the Otto cycle.
Producing a distinctly different indicator card tracing, the Atkinson Cycle is therefore thermo-dynamically different from the Otto Cycle!

 

[Bob44]

Ah the sound of my AN-TPS 1 search Radar running on a pair of Continental 4 cylinder flathead 400 CPS generators in the cold German night, in my deepest sleep I heard the one started running out of gas; the 400 CPS whine would start to sag and go flat, suddenly the other generator came to life with some sputtering and awhile to get up to running speed, quit hunting for its proper speed and the nice 400 CPS whine was steady. The radar didn’t miss a beat. Back to sleep.

 

[Bentwings]

I'm about ready to dish $600 for a hit and miss that doesn't run (~4hp). I could sleep all day to that sound....with nothing hooked up of course. Am I the only one here that binge-watched through the entire RedRyder hit and miss playlist on youtubes? (I did, hehe).

It’s fun at the farm show we go to each year. They have about two acres of operating farm equipment. There was a plow demo one year. It was made out of materials that would have been in a covered wagon . The commentator said the wagons were built to take apart and the right pieces could be made into useful farm equipment. It must have been a nice project jut building those old wagons. I can’t even imagine what the trips must have been like. When I went hunting out in the high plains, while walking in a dry riverbed I found what was probably I was told later was a line she’d that was used for shelter in the old days.it was in the side of the riverbank just enough room to cover yourself and horse . I marked on the old map of the area where it was. Using modern day gps coordinates from phone the gps worked but no phone service.lol . At end of day we used gun fire to help find each other. Apparently settlers also new a little about celestial navigation too. The sky was beautifull at night . Us city dwellers really miss some interesting sights.
byron

Hi MRA.
On running diesels on Veg. oil. There is an issue with modern - high tech injection pumps and injectors.... - for emissions.

1. The Veg oil - while it has recently become "fuel from sun energy" - has compounds in it that do not burn as "cleanly" as refined diesel fuel; for MOTOR use.
2. Modern ROAD MOTOR diesel fuel (DERV fuel) contains many additives: e.g. a small percentage of "cleverer" chemical (can't remember its name) to aid ignition - especially cold starting - but actually starts the ignition uo to full load so a cleaner flame front is developed. The VEG fuel equivalent additive is a coffee cup full of "Turps substitute" per imperial gallon (8 pints for the colonials. 4.5 litres for continental readers).
3. DERV has waxes removed - that, remaining in VEG oil, gum-up engines and do not burn cleanly, as they are more complex hydrocarbons. There are also proteins in VEG oil that also contribute to exhaust pollution, due to poorer combustion.
4. Other additives include corrosion inhibitors, etc. and "lubricants" - to enhance the lubricity of the oil (otherwise the oil film breaks down under extreme pressure and you get rapid and excessive wear of injectors and injection pumps!).
5. Sulphur, and other "nasty" minerals are filtered out (these are actually in solution in the oil as chemical compounds, - which break down and re-combine chemically to adversely affect exhaust post-treatment 2-way catalysts & NOx traps).... etc.).
6. The net effect on a Volvo (Or Renault?) diesel tested with Home-made "Veg.Oil" fuel was 10 times more wear.... - Can't remember the source, it may have been a magazine, which is press, so what you believe you believe...
7. Basically, you are not saving the planet because you are "robbing Peter to save Paul" - IMHO...
8. DERV FUEL has about 100 years of technical (chemical refining and additive) development - allied with the same in engine and exhaust treatment technology - to be commercially as clean as is practical in today's world. Typically, modern diesels are about 10% more efficient than petrol engines at producing power for road vehicles - Mostly due to the higher temperature of combustion - Which is as good as it gets compared to Petrol equivalents: so "well done" on running a diesel motorcycle. But riding style, distances, and speeds, as well as quality and fequency of gear changes, etc. can make diesels worse than petrol engines for the same journeys. - Therefore those are more significant for CO2 production than having a diesel engine.
9. The cleaner option is a battery motorcycle, re-charged from your own combined solar panel and wind powered recharging system.
10. But at least you are "recycling" waste VEG oil... Better to recycle it to the people who refine waste veg oil into road fuel additive, as they take out the nasties, and make it into a cleaner fuel.

But that is only my opinion (I was only involved with emissions testing of Diesel, petrol and battery electric cars for about 15 years... including studying fuel specifications.). I do not know all the facts available on the internet.... some possibly published by experts...
K2

i was going to ask about veggie oils as steam engine oil just is not available locally. I can order it from UK but it’s a bit expensive. Being a long time diesel guy I went through all the trials of diesel fuel changes and eventually to the current bio diesel here in the states. I changed fuel filter in -30 deg f temps more than a few time at road side. When bio came messed up fuel tanks and entire fuel systems were common . Once the fuel was made in today’s condition it became pretty easy to drive all weather even with my 1 ton dusky. Chains were the norm too, and installing them road side in snow storms was not fun but once gloves and cold winter clothes were in the back seat it was possible to Navaho pretty rough weather. I had a 2500 Lund concrete road barrier in the bed for a couple winters .
So the new hobby is model steam engines. I’m about to order a pretty nice 4 cylinder mill steam engine for my upcoming birthday . This prompted a lot of searching for boiler stuff and lubrication of all the moving parts. I really accidentally stumbled upon veggie oils. And a very lengthy article on its development. As a side note I’ve also been into model airplanes since I was a kid. Model fuel used too be castor oil and alcohol until the auto racers had lots of nitromethane …. Nitro for short . In all the years I Grenada’s model motors with excess nitro I had one fail because of bearing failure or even lubrication, so I’m beginning to think that veggie oil and castor oil might be the best thing for steamers. I’ll do more research on this. I may even set up a shaft test station as I know we have a number of electric motors sitting in a pile at the shop . Untill later.
I got interrupted by a phone call so I may have drifted off course here a little. I always appreciate comments.

byron

 

[Bentwings]

I did som research into steam oils and found a huge and extremely tech paper on diesel and veggie oils. Castor oil is made from beans only grown in very south east Asia. As ww2 approached the need for castor oil which was used in aircraft as well as about ever engine it became essential to grow and process closer to home . Turns out that a hybrid bean could grow in Canada. This oil became Canada oil shortened to canola oil of today it has early ultimate lubricating propertieslow pour point low viscosity at low temps and great film strength at high temps . Also is great blended with diesel making it very clean actually better than current gasoline the paper was about 30 pages long I should have saved it but I think I fell asleep and closed it out on my iPad never the less I’m currently doing some kitchen tests and have a good idea for a shop test . I have a pair of model steam turbines ordered that I’ll try current castor oil on they rotate at clos to 50 k rpm on relatively low pressure and volume. Castor oil also is supposed to displace water kinda like wd40 so I’m going to test that too. I know it is not easy to get off anything. It was used by women for hair treatment. Reportedly extremely hard to wash out. Requiring harsh soaps . As I recal my mom used use it and crisp to pop popcorn. I can Renee walking pots and pans after the popcorn was gone . Tough with old fashion sss pod something else I’m testing. When I have some testing done I’ll post it . I’ll not see the turbines untill mid Jan at best. I just got the Amazon notice a few minutes ago .
Byron

 

[Richard-Vanderpol]

Those miniatures are cute when they are running at a blur's pace, but I think some folks don't understand how they run when the mechanisms are a blur. I run them slow so folks can see how the mechanics of the hit-n-miss cycle, especially the governor's role, is in their operation. Besides, they burn less fuel running slow. Later, RT.

l like your engines.