Whats up with HMEM?

[abby]

I guess what is actually getting up the contributors noses is the fact that any forum is only made successful by it's members posts which are freely donated for the kudos gained , lets face it we all have egos and enjoy praise .
Without these contributions the forum is worthless , just a lot of dubious advertising and a few often unanswered requests for help.
The only other reason for anyone posting a "good" article is financial incentive.
Model making magazines pay for good articles and any attempt to change a free forum to a profit making magazine format and then claim ownership of the articles is doomed to failure because this is actually insulting the skilled , intelligent and experienced contributors.
We all know that the web is vast and it is impossible to prevent piracy and plagiarism , there have been whole threads posted on certain forums , simply copied and pasted from elsewhere so paying for articles could be difficult to police but that is the owners concern not the contributors.
I am always amazed that forums have a "no advertising " policy which appears to target contributors only.
The rule is vigorously enforced on some forums , even to the extent of members reporting such posts.
I operate a small 3D design and lost wax casting service , I design and manufacture parts for models , mainly steam locomotives , if I post an article I expect free reign to make it clear that any castings used in said article are available for sale.
Quid pro etc.
This is not intended as criticism but more a statement of fact as like a good many members I have spent several years searching for good forums , even setting up my own .
Most seem to fade away gradually as the contributors leave and what is left is a board where the same few people post the same answers over and over again to the same questions posed by someone who joined today and will never post again , or equally annoying the reply that starts " well I don't really know but "
Dan.

 

[BaronJ]

It has to be that way or we get penalized from Google as does the other site you post it to. The almighty google does not like duplicate content.

Google likes to own the content produced by others... Just look at all the "Out of Copyright" books that have been scanned and are no longer available as downloadable !

I have things that I could post that may be of interest to members here and elsewhere, but I am not going to allow my work to be taken and be prevented from been used by me or others that I might give copies to.

I wonder whether something like the GPL would be useful in ensuring that our work would be and remain in the public domain.

 

[Till]

That my work remains mine.

I'm not into the details of american copyright. But in Germany and many other countries, the „becomes property of xyz“ formula does not apply anyway.
The artist can grant some kind of unlimited and exclusive license (insert correct term here ), but the work remains property of the artist.


In terms of usability this is obviously the same (it's out of your reach as soon as you hand it in), but granting a license sounds much more generous of course.

 

[Admin]

Just a quick question from me.
With a paid suscription you get more space, bigger avatar, no MOBILE advertising? etc, but I am wondering about point 8.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/faq.php?faq=supporting#faq_supportingmembership
Access to Private Forums, so does this mean unless you pay, you won't be able to get into a section that will probably hold all the more attractive articles or builds etc that will be the",
"ANY ARTICLE AND IMAGES YOU SUBMIT THAT WE USE AND GIVE AN UPGRADED MEMBERSHIP FOR BECOMES THE PROPERTY OF HOMEMODELENGINEMACHINIST.COM.
Just asking.

Nope, if I set it up (which I haven't due to lack of interest) it's an off topic section for members. No technical content is posted to it.

You guys understand I'm not an evil corporate drone looking to undermine information on the net, nor am I looking to publish the material in any other way aside from on site and the front page?

That's how I'm being treated, like I have some sort of subversive goal to hoard content, when I'm just trying to get some stuff on the front page.

The information is free, always has been. Want to sell me an article? I'd love to see it, but as in all things capitalist and American, if I buy it I'm going to use it. This is the staple of our economy.

If you submit an article to a magazine, online trade publication, a newspaper, they are going to do the same thing.

 

[stevehuckss396]

Austin

I have submitted articles to model engine magazines and have been published. They paid me a few hundred bucks (which was donated to charity) and I also retained ownership of the content of that article. All i'm saying is having to give up ownership of work is what's stopping most people from contributing.

 

[Admin]

Can I get you to send me a copy of their paper work so I can see how they do it?

 

[stevehuckss396]

Can I get you to send me a copy of their paper work so I can see how they do it?

I don't have a copy of the agreement anymore. It was all done over the computer. The basic agreement was that I still own the content and could not post it elsewhere for one year. Point being I still own it. Model engineer and Model engine Builder were both similar agreements. Maybe drop a line to Mike Rhemus at MEB or David Clark at ME and see if they can help.

 

[Tin Falcon]

If you submit an article to a magazine, online trade publication, a newspaper, they are going to do the same thing.

I spoke with George Bullis a few years ago about submitting articles.He is editor of Home Shop machinist , projects in Metal and Digital Machinist. They too struggle to get quality pertinent submissions.
I may have a copy of the guidelines in the other computer will have to look . They pay IIRC $150 -$ 200 for first North American publishing rights. the author maintains copyright . and can sell plans or whatever after the magazine article has been released. IIRC village press also gives a handful of the magazine issue(s)to the author before normal distribution. and if the article is republished later in book format the author gets a couple copies of the book.

I think Steve is right you will not find many willing to write a quality article and give away the copyrights for what amounts to compensation equal to one hours pay .(edited the current value of an annual membership is $20.00 US)

Also I think if you sent an email to any of the magazine publishers with an introduction they will likely send current author guidelines.
Tin

 

[ausdier]

G'day Austin,
Please accept my apologies if my post was perceived as trying to portray you as an evil corporate drone. lol good analogy, no, not at all.
I suppose there is a bit of paranoia about what you are trying to do, and both sides need to be able to understand the position of each other.
I am sure there are people who may believe that you are an “evil corporate drone” (promise that is the last time I will use that) but in reality any and all websites cost money to maintain and the bigger a site gets, the more money it takes.
People need to be able to understand that a little bit of advertising helps keep this site alive for all and it keeps all past posts alive for all as well.
Otherwise all people’s hard work disappears into the great web abyss and by hard work it can be as simple as spending 20min typing out what they have done and putting it to some pictures.
To this extent if a site also tries to protect its foothold in a particular market by trying to keep content, exclusive to it, then it is no different to a retail shop that does deals with a supplier to only supply to them so they can then say they won’t be beaten on a product they sell, because they are the only ones who sell that item.
OK, so if people are scared that Austin is one day going to produce a “Best of HMEM book” or CD/DVD and use what they have supplied, then don’t post, easy.
Post somewhere else and then see it put onto a Chinese site with no consideration at all, which we have all seen before.
But then don’t ***** if he tries to get this sort of content from other places to try and attract new people from other fields and then unfortunately gets content that may have been posted somewhere else.
It was said that after a quick search it was found that the original offending articles were taken from somewhere else, who here also did a search or does searches on all posts?
Out of the thousands of people on this site, one person raised the concerns, (Well done Steve), then when Austin was made aware of this fact it was removed and I would be sure that other person were talked to about their work as well.
If you have made it this far, my rant is nearly over. J
The concept of limited time before posting to another forum is probably the best idea that has come out of this so far ( in my opinion ) and is no different if you sell a business, you sign to say you won’t just start another same business and steal all your past customers.
I suppose when it all comes down to it there needs to be a certain level of trust by all parties, owner, members and outside sources, that everyone is going to do the right thing.
Then if there are things that are of concern, they might be better served in a more private forum (PM) first and then if things don’t pan out, there can be a more public discussion.
No one can keep all the people happy all the time, but if we work together and find solutions rather than just criticise then we can and will keep what is a great forum, GREAT.
OK all typed out now shall rest my 2 fingers, let’s all take a deep breath and make this work for all our sakes.
PS: I have not been paid for this rant and have not posted anywhere else. LOL (sorry my stupid humour)
Cheers.

 

[Admin]

Thank you for that.

I'm contacting other publishers to see how they handle it. I will let you guys know of any changes I make.

Thanks for talking this out guys!

 

[Tin Falcon]

Lesson learned here. While us admins are all powerful and may have the ability to make members disappear we are not all knowing or ever present. I feel the assumption was made that Austin knew of this thread and of the OT articles.
Please in the future if someone has a major concern about the direction of this forum please pm Austin and myself rather than assuming we know of the problem. As I have said before all views are encouraged as long as presented in an intelligent respectful manner.
Tin Falcon

 

[Paulsv]

He has been stopped. I won't stand for plagiarism.

And yet the offending articles are all still there when I sign on......??????

 

[BaronJ]

Just to add to what Ausdier said. I've written a number of articles which have been published in various magazines. In every case I own and hold conditional copyright. Note "Conditional". Where I've been paid, there is usually a time limit to my being able to submit the same article to another publication. Six or twelve months usually. During this time the magazine can do whatever it likes with that work except pass it on to a third party.

Where I've been commissioned to produce an article, that article in its entirety belongs to the magazine. In other words they are the owners lock stock & barrel. The fees paid are also commensurate with their ownership and may also have been negotiated over and above their normal rates.

The other situation is where an article has been produced specifically as an advertisement for a product or a service by me as an advertiser. This type of submission remains entirely mine and in some cases I have had to pay to have it included in the publication.

I hope that these notes help.

Behavior as seen by those large corporates with deep pockets act as a big disincentive to those of us that see public domain works disappear only to be regurgitated as for purchase.

 

[Rivergypsy]

I just keep seeing that builds other than IC get neglected, which doesn't happen on Model Engine Maker. HMEM could change to HMICEM, and I could just follow my urge to MEM...

 

[terrywerm]

There is a set of recurring themes and actions on just about every forum I have ever been a member of, including this one. I am not trying to be critical of ANYONE here, but instead am trying to be constructive and point out a few things that may or may not be apparent.

In so many cases a forum owner wants to increase membership. This helps to generate revenue in many cases, through ad views. On one forum I belong to the owner simply wants to be able to say that his forum is the biggest, therefore it must be the best. In other words, there are as many reasons for increasing membership as there are forums.

Lately the big push has been for articles. Not just here, but on a few other forums as well. The common perception being that good articles will draw more members.

First, the articles need to be GOOD. The ones that were posted by Brian and Swifty were all very good. I found them to be enjoyable and interesting.

Second, the articles need to be RELEVANT. The alternative energy articles were anything but.

Articles need to be COMPLETE. They all need an opening, a body, and a closing. The articles from Mr. Roussey do not meet these criteria.

Articles need to use proper grammar and spelling. This is a no brainer.

I am glad to see that the content ownership and copyright issues are being re-examined. This used to be my favorite forum, but has not been for several months due to the copyright issues. I poke my head in here from time to time, but I do not make it a priority. I find myself coming here to glean ideas but I offer little because, like others, I wish to share my experiences, thoughts, plans, ideas, and knowledge with others in more than one forum. What I have to offer is not so good that keeping my participation limited to one forum will draw members to that one forum. I am not famous, and I don't want to be. I don't even care if I get kudos for the things that I do or that I offer. I present them so that others can benefit from them whether or not they ever thank me or give me an 'attaboy'.

When attempting to increase membership, one must remember that this forum caters to a very limited group of hobbyists. Stamp collectors won't come here. Neither will coin collectors or bike riders. There are only so many people in the entire world that have an interest in making model engines, whether they be steam, air, solar, IC, vacuum, or Stirling.

Large memberships also tend to create less quality and more quantity. Nothing against the new folks here - believe me!! But, as the forum grows, the percentage of posts that deal with the same old questions increases dramatically. I am not complaining, it is simply the nature of the beast. There may be more good quality threads also, but the perception is that there are fewer of them in relation to the higher number of basic questions that are posted.

To get away from that, we create and post articles, so that people can read up on the basics or on what they are looking for without re-asking the same old questions. The problem starts when people decide that they don't want to read a bunch of seemingly irrelevant stuff just to get at a little bit of meat and potatoes. So, they post a new thread asking a question that has been asked a thousand times before. It's quick, it's easy, and they get direct answers to a direct question. Even searching old threads is not as easy as asking a direct question and then waiting for a pointed answer. In short, this very format is it's own worst enemy.

Oh, and worrying about what Google says is baloney. Who the hell died and made Google the god of the internet anyway?? Consider these two scenarios:
1. Pay more attention to Google, and less attention to what the members say. Result: members fade away but the now empty forum is easily found in a Google search. With no members, there is no forum no matter what Google says.
2. Pay attention to members and ignore Google. Result: Members participate and feel valued. Google could care less. Forum lives happily ever after.

I believe (and this is just my opinion) that if the admins and mods follow a
QUALITY before QUANTITY ideology that the membership numbers will take care of themselves. Maybe we should be looking at the number of active members, not just the total number.

Like I said earlier, I am simply offering some food for thought and am not personally criticizing anyone. Everything here is my opinion, and some folks may not agree with everything I said. Like Austin said, "Thanks for talking this out". I am also happy to see this being handled in a very good way and I only wanted to bring up some points that may have been overlooked.

 

[dicej32]

My opinion is everybody is missing the point here. When Austin bought this forum he did it for one reason. To make money. How? It's called Internet Marketing. Which by the way is why Google is god. The basic premise is you create or buy a website/forum/blog which attracts large amounts of people. Traffic is the key. All those ads you see come from where? You guessed it, Google. This forum has a huge potential for revenue due to the large amount of registered users. Sort of a captive audience if you will. Plus he gets a nice big old email list to go with it. Those off topic articles you're seeing? It's called Article Marketing. It's function is to attract people to the forum. You search Google for let's say energy generation and now a link to HMEM pops up. When the person clicks on the link he ends up on the forum where he gets to see all those ads too. The more eyes the merrier. The ultimate goal is to get the highest ranking in the google search engine as possible. Google returns results in order of ranking which unfortunately Internet Marketing basically manipulates. So the higher your sites ranking, the more it appears on the first page of Google results, the more traffic to the site, the more ads get seen, etc.

All that being said, does that make Austin a bad person? Not at all. He's a business man. He's watching out for his business. He's not a model engineer and he doesn't pretend to be one. So you can take from this forum what you want. You can participate and get the information you need while ignoring all the ads/articles etc. that are not relevant. Just realize this is not a labor of love; it's a business.

JR

 

[abby]

JR it is very obvious from your post that infact it is you who have "missed the point" , have you read the previous posts ? Do you really think anyone needs a lesson in internet marketing ?
It is posts such as yours , which ignore what has already been written and then go on to state the obvious that are part of forum decline.
Of course you are entitled to an opinion , but lets have something that states a sensible point of view that has perhaps been overlooked or not given a decent airing.
Most importantly read and understand before banging away at the keyboard , and ask yourself "how much have I contributed and how much have I taken" then you might get the point and be in a position to write with some relevancy.

 

[Tin Falcon]

My opinion is everybody is missing the point here

There are many points here many perspectives.
This place started as a friendly place for people to learn to build model engines. That is the focus of this forum. If articles is a new internet focus and a better way of teaching the new members and a more efficient way of presenting information I am all for it.
Austin represents a company called group builders . So the focus is to manage the forums in such a way as to generate revenue at the same time building the individual subjected focused group or on-line community. We also need to realize the forum is now just a part of the on line community. Articles are in the process of development, there is a place to post photos show off engines post videos and a download section to access various plans etc.

All that being said, does that make Austin a bad person? Not at all. He's a business man. He's watching out for his business. He's not a model engineer and he doesn't pretend to be one
Just realize this is not a labor of love; it's a business.

Many of us here remember when this forum was a labor of love. And We rather liked it that way. There was no concern of our e-mails addresses or posts being sold for profit. There was no concern of our children seeing ads for inappropriate content like mail order brides.
That being said we also know that there have been improvements that have been funded by advertising dollars. more band width. more data storage space and 24 hour professional software and hardware support.


There is very much of a ying and yang here . If one focuses only on the bottom line and revenue and ignores the need of the community the residence will move elsewhere and the neighborhood will go downhill. A few new will move in but we would be faced with a large urban renewal project or a big empty lot Like has happened to many US factories.

Focus only on growing the community and we will indeed grow but there needs to be funds to pay salaries maintain upgrade hardware etc etc. there would be no community without a server and all it take to maintain and grow.
And yes that takes money and money comes from internet marketing.
Focus on one point of view and this community will fail.

Tin falcon

 

[Admin]

You can participate and get the information you need while ignoring all the ads/articles etc. that are not relevant. Just realize this is not a labor of love; it's a business.

It can be both. That's why I'm on at 6:49 AM on a Sunday.

And to address why the articles was still there, I was having someone review it. It has been taken down.

 

[ozzie46]

It can be both. That's why I'm on at 6:49 AM on a Sunday.

And to address why the articles was still there, I was having someone review it. It has been taken down.

Articles still there as of 6:15 am Mountain time.

Ron