Tool grinding persective

[BaronJ]

Actually I thought it was all about engine building. Again it is a matter of perspective, not everyone has the strong desire to refine their machinist skills to the same extent as everybody else. The funny thing here is that I came to this site to learn more about machining and not so much about engine building. As noted there is a fantastic array of skills represented on this forum. To keep the newbies interested we need to be flexible and not absolute in our declarations.

I'll second that !

I've yet to build an engine. I've built other things, mainly tools. My current building project is a mill tramming tool. Yes I've been told that it won't get used very much and that I don't need one because I can do this...

Its very much a part of my learning by doing it ! Coupled with advice and help from many many others who have been there, done that, and have the T shirt.

 

[BaronJ]

I still don't own a QCTP (yet), I somewhat don't mind having to shim out my bits, because in all honesty, after a while I remember which little bits of scrap to use for shimming (I currently use 5/16 Bits and my current one hasn't needed to be sharpened in a while).

Actually I don't own one either ! However I have just bought the material to make one. So this is going to be my next project.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/qctp-myford-lathe-22047/

 

[goldstar31]

Actually I don't own one either ! However I have just bought the material to make one. So this is going to be my next project.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/qctp-myford-lathe-22047/

I've already got one which was bought in period of mental aberration.
I've got a sillier one for a single tool with a rocking thing which makes me sick that came with all daft Myford toys and a rather nice set of tool holders which hold 4 tools at a time and were made from three slabs of steel each- and a few sockets screws to hold the tools in place packed up to tool height with recycled beer can metal( which I have enjoyed creating). I've got one of those little George Thomas parting tools at the back of the Myford- which is adjusted( rarely) by tapping the blade after doing this highly complicated touch on my grinder.

You see I've also been there- worn a teeshirt when the sun was at its meridian and had a lathe saddle with attendant teeslots which a previous owner had-- warped. I can tell you that I learned more about scraping and tee slots than can be credited.

You see, or don't, that a lot of rigidity is lost by all this rigmarole about QCTP's and so on. I simply cannot throw the confounded thing at my neighbour's cat because it is nice. But you get the idea!:wall:


Wearily

Norman

 

[Walltoddj]

I'll second that !

I've yet to build an engine. I've built other things, mainly tools. My current building project is a mill tramming tool. Yes I've been told that it won't get used very much and that I don't need one because I can do this...

Its very much a part of my learning by doing it ! Coupled with advice and help from many many others who have been there, done that, and have the T shirt.

Who ever told you that you will use a tramming tool much ether has a dedicated mill or doesn't do much machining. I need to make one myself because I'll always moving the head for different jobs and I've got two mills. A well trammed head helps to get a smooth cut with no steps and a square cut or drilled hole if it's set up correct.

As Tin said at least in my home shop that is!!

Todd

 

[BaronJ]

You see, or don't, that a lot of rigidity is lost by all this rigmarole about QCTP's and so on. I simply cannot throw the confounded thing at my neighbor's cat because it is nice. But you get the idea!:wall:


Wearily

Norman

Hi Norman,

Bet the neighbor's cat can move quicker than you can throw the QCTP at it

Seriously though I have the Myford square tool post that you mention and have had no issues with it what so ever. My only reason for wanting one is ease and speed. I know a number of Myford users that have or have had various brands and types of QCTP. Some have been, in their words, "absolute crap" ! From these people of experience I have come to the conclusion that the design I referred to is the best.
It seems to have all the desired attributes including rigidity. So that is where I am going to put my endeavors next. If its rubbish then you can rest assured that I will say so.

 

[BaronJ]

Who ever told you that you will use a tramming tool much ether has a dedicated mill or doesn't do much machining. I need to make one myself because I'll always moving the head for different jobs and I've got two mills. A well trammed head helps to get a smooth cut with no steps and a square cut or drilled hole if it's set up correct.

As Tin said at least in my home shop that is!!

Todd

Hi Todd,

In that case watch this space. I will try to do an acceptable drawing of mine and some photos.

 

[goldstar31]

My only reason for wanting one is ease and speed. I know a number of Myford users that have or have had various brands and types of QCTP.

If that is the case, why has this concept not spread to the actual sharpening of tools? In a vague Quixotic way, I have or seen the odd tool and cutter grinder. Some have magnetic holding bits, some have electro-mechanical bits whilst others are the classic 'bolt' in some form or another.
None have Quick Change Tool Holders. :hDe:

Am I tilting at windmills?

Cheers

Norman

 

[Tin Falcon]

Guys lets not get into comparing sweet apples to sour grapes.
I do not expect some debates to ever be settled. And that is OK.
Everyone here is the foreman , manager , purchasing agent, and janitor of his or own shop. We each need to manage the shop as wee see fit. I encourage all to take notes. Take notes as you read here take notes as you machine. write down what works for you and what does not.
Lets not lose sight of the real goals her that is to learn and help others learn to build model engines. And lets not forget it is a hobby and needs to be fun.
Our choises are based on our available hobby time our skill/experience level and our budget. These factors vary greatly from person to person and over time.

I learned first on a lantern tool post then quickly switched to the QC type . I think the school was switching over at the time but it may have been a case of do a few cuts the old way to appreciate the modern methods.
I was taught in school how to sharpen HSS there were no indexable inserts in school.
My first home lathe was /is I still have it a humble grizzly 7 x 10 . I had no fun shimming tool height. I quickly changed to a QCTP.

So lets all remember others perspectives. If a guy is here and a doctor or lawyer and has only a couple hours a week in the hobby shop indexable inserts may be the way to go for him. On the other hand a retired machinist is going to have much more shop time to sharpen his or her own tools.

We are not here to tell others what to do just help them find the answer that is right for them.

IMHO we all tend to be quick to tell others what works for us . But lets remember there are many situations and perspectives to be considered.

It is these varied perspectives that motivates me to ask for introduction from the new folks . If We have an idea of there life experience we can better give advise.


Tin

 

[OrangeAlpine]

I learned on lantern tool posts some 50 years ago. Never saw a 4 way until I got the Enco. I had no idea - took a while for me to understand the TOOL is clamped in the 4 way. Not the tool holder. The lantern provides more flexibility - both in setup and tool rigidity. A person can learn to get by with either.

But I made a direct mounted tangential tool holder. What a difference a massive, direct mounted tool holder makes. So, I'm experimenting with that concept and love the results. Suddenly, parting is no big deal. It looks like I'll never get around to quick change. I'm more interested in tool performance than speed.

To each his own.

Bill

 

[Tin Falcon]

To each his own.

My point! we all need to figure out what works for us. And it is fine to share that. But we all need to realize that our best choice may not be someone else's best choice. And respect others views and choices.
Tin

 

[Lakc]

My point! we all need to figure out what works for us. And it is fine to share that. But we all need to realize that our best choice may not be someone else's best choice. And respect others views and choices.
Tin

Indeed. There are a lot of different variables that go into each "home shop" as well as the projects we each take on.

For us still working stiffs, time is the biggest obstacle. It is, afterall, a hobby, and work, family, household chores, etc. have to come first.

I went to an auto mechanic trade school, the first lesson on the first day was sharpening drill bits. You were graded on how well it produced a ribbon chip when you were done with it. To this day, I will resharpen my own drills above 3/8 or so, but below that size its not really worth my time as they are too cheap to replace.

I grind my own lathe toolbits on a standard old import bench grinder, so again, for sizes 5/16 and less its not much trouble, but for general work and larger sizes I use inserts most of the time. If I could afford to part with the cash for a "real" toolbit grinder I would probably use them more.

I used the lantern toolpost for years, but time was of essence, and I wasted plenty learning how un-rigid my setup was. I built my own toolpost holder because it saved time setting tool heights that had to be adjusted depending on how heavy a cut I was taking.

I worked for years without a DRO, but time again loomed in the background. I could not always break myself of the habit rushing through certain things. There is plenty of backlash that I didnt always compensate for correctly, and I swear those dial markings are getting smaller every year. I saved up and bought a DRO last year. I spend most of my time cutting now, and not wondering where the table actually is. I make less scrap, center work effortlessly, and switch glasses far less often. If I had fresh leadscrews, half nuts, and saddle ways I might not have had to invest in the DRO, but it has made me more productive, and made things much more enjoyable.

All these decisions were made to address specific problems. Anticipating problems is always a worthwhile exercise, but will rarely be 100% effective. In reality, there are just too many things, from too may different branches of science to account for. For someone starting out in the hobby, I would say do what you can with what you have. Even if its just a file and a drill. Let practical experience determine your needs. The difference between you and that grizzled veteran over there is he has made a whole lot more scrap then you. In this business, you have to fail to learn, because the most valuable thing you learn (aside from safety) is where your own thought processes failed to account for some variable.

 

[Walltoddj]

How many have seen or used a four tool turret holder? I ran one on a Warner Swasey No.3 Turret lathe oh what fun it was, the bad part was having to come in the next day and reset up machine because the owner thought he come run it fast than me with a form tool, never did work I was fast by far with the 6 drill turret and the four turret tool holder. Now I have a Lantern as you call it, a four tool block, and a QCTP all have their good points and bad I find it easier to use the lantern if I'm using a center an need to cut to the end but QCTP is nice for my dedicated tools.

Todd

 

[BaronJ]

Hi Guys,

My current building project is a mill tramming tool. Yes I've been told that it won't get used very much and that I don't need one because I can do this...

I've done a drawing for this. But will start a new thread.
See "Mill Tramming Tool"
Thanks:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/mill-tramming-tool-22563/

 

[John Rus]

How many have seen or used a four tool turret holder? I ran one on a Warner Swasey No.3 Turret lathe oh what fun it was, the bad part was having to come in the next day and reset up machine because the owner thought he come run it fast than me with a form tool, never did work I was fast by far with the 6 drill turret and the four turret tool holder. Now I have a Lantern as you call it, a four tool block, and a QCTP all have their good points and bad I find it easier to use the lantern if I'm using a center an need to cut to the end but QCTP is nice for my dedicated tools.

Todd

Funny you should say that because I finally got a lathe (two actually), it's a Warner Swasey no.3 turret lathe. The one that's real accurate is a typical turret lathe without the threading capability and the other which has much more use (don't know how bad it is yet) has a threading gear box, which I like very much.

Hopefully me, my brothers and my Dad will finish painting the "nice one" today. Keeping my fingers crossed.

When It's all done I will post pictures of it.

Cheers,
John.

 

[Walltoddj]

Funny you should say that because I finally got a lathe (two actually), it's a Warner Swasey no.3 turret lathe. The one that's real accurate is a typical turret lathe without the threading capability and the other which has much more use (don't know how bad it is yet) has a threading gear box, which I like very much.

Hopefully me, my brothers and my Dad will finish painting the "nice one" today. Keeping my fingers crossed.

When It's all done I will post pictures of it.

Cheers,
John.

Sounds great you will like that lathe a lot if you do production runs or in the home shop a lot of the same part. When you cycle the rear turret I found if you hit the lever good and solid it pops nicely into the detent, some of the others that ran this lathe always had a problem not making the detent or shooting past it.
Yes I'd love to see the pics when your done or before to it brings back so good memories that's a good solid and useful machine. I spent my first year in a job shop running that lathe.

Todd