Tool grinding persective

[robcas631]

I learned to draw via hand. It seems to be a lost art now. When I was in college we had ACAD 9.0 on glorified 286 computers. Yep, loading a floor plan took 5 minutes or more.

Having the ability to draw is IMHO a must. Same goes for using measuring tools such as calipers, micrometers ..ect. This past Christmas my father gave me some gifts that are very special and personally invaluable.

 

[Hopper]

I learned to draw via hand. It seems to be a lost art now. When I was in college we had ACAD 9.0 on glorified 286 computers. Yep, loading a floor plan took 5 minutes or more.

Having the ability to draw is IMHO a must. Same goes for using measuring tools such as calipers, micrometers ..ect. This past Christmas my father gave me some gifts that are very special and personally invaluable.

Ooh those are very nice indeed. I'm envious.

I still have my final year trade school drawing exam work folded up in the lid of my toolbox. Pencil and straight edge, two hours to complete. Fittingly, it was of a steam valve, something else that is nearly a thing of the past today.

 

[Tin Falcon]

I've just bought a cheap metric set of taps, dies and tapping drills from Aldi. Imagine my surprise to find that the drills are HSS and all split point.

Not had chance to use them yet so I don't know how good or bad they are. But for £17 who knows.

Interesting to see. I purchased a hand full of bits from tractor supply IIRC 20 - 30 bits for $ 10. I was drilling I beam with concrete behind it . some wer OK some bent and were unusable but as soon as you hit concrete the tip is shot anyway and you need to resharpen
Tin

 

[goldstar31]

There are several ways to look at the Aldi version of things. Of course, I haven't a clue about Tractor Supply or whoever and cannot comment. I bought the Aldi set in the UK some months ago. Aldi, incidentally is all over Europe and is Aldi Sud, Aldi Nord and Hofer in Germany and Austria and has tremendous purchasing power and with Lidl is threatening the UK major Tesco, Marks and Spencer's, Morrison's and so on. So back to what they offer and that is 3 years for a lot of things- and no quibble. If one thinks about it coldly, it beats the sh1t out of many UK guarantees of ONE year.
So back to this box of goodies which is only the price of a Chinese dinner- which is gone in a trice! I have a complete set of Imperials and BA's and ME's twice or thrice over but I have had to accept metric and bought a set of taps for a lot more than this and- they are not terribly good though from a nationwide ,reputable engineering factor. So at £17 the set of dies alone are worth having. For a newcomer, this may not be the factory standard but it is a workable kit to make the bits that should enhance having got a barebones, cheap, far from accurate lathe that came with a book of instructions which read 'Gong Hey Fat Choy' and not a lot more.

Me? I was in Aldi today( somewhere to park whilst getting prescriptions) and they had arc welders for £33 with a box of accessories. Not enough to supply Henry Kaiser and those wonderful Liberty ships but you get the idea.
Dammit, I'd been in the other week and came out of Aldi with a 7" Adenoid tablet for all of £80 or 100 Euros.

I'll get me coat

Norman

 

[BaronJ]

Just bought a drill bit grab bag from H.F. Checked for quality, and all were surprisingly good, then I noticed about half of them were ground opposite normal rotation. I pulled out the books and was going to go about resharpening for standard drill press rotation when it occurred to me that I could still use them in my lathe for boring, just run the head in reverse. Hope this little missive is in keeping with the thread.

Reminds me of a little incident many years ago. I spent a very short time in a large engineering workshop. I would only be 16 or 17 at the time. The foreman had been giving me some instruction on hand grinding drills... Well I thought I had been doing very nicely thank you. He then gave me a couple of drills and told me to go and sharpen them. An hour or so later he came to see where I was and why I was taking so long to sharpen these drills. I must admit that at that time I hadn't a clue that there were such things as "left hand" drills. Much hilarity was had by the other guys when the foreman told them.... I leave the rest to your imagination.

 

[Tin Falcon]

I have a couple nice kitchen knives from Aldis .
Hey tools that need sharpening
Tin

 

[DJP]

As a student in a summer factory job, I worked in the Machine Repair department. One day the foreman asked me to drill a hole in a piece of steel but it was a shop joke. One of the old timers had put a twist in the belt so that the press ran backwards. Of course the bit would not cut so I went to the grinder to sharpen it and try again. The men enjoyed a good laugh and it was my initiation. I think that I passed the test as it was the right thing to sharpen the bit.

To this day I consider the sharpening of tools to be part of the job.

 

[Swifty]

I'm always amazed at the weekly specials from our local Aldi store, computers, tablets, motor bike clothing, welders etc. I will keep a look out for tap and die sets.

Paul.

 

[goldstar31]

Apologies if my earlier post moved away a bit from the original question. Blame it on me being old- and set in my ways.

The 'Universal Supplier' is just around the corner and I buy food such as sugar because sugar is sugar and A's is cheapest. However, they have things like powered tile cutters and mini sanding belt things( memory gone) and double ended grinders. OK, I cracked the DE thing by buying better wheels and ran my home made tool and cutter grinder with one( until something better turned up). Sitting on the spare bed in what is laughingly described as 'my study' which is a laugh, it's a forgettery, is a set of drawings of a thing called a Tinker tool and cutter grinder.
OK, fellas, I've got a Quorn and things but this design has three main bits and is not much more than an angle bracket. The abrasive side of the business comes from any old DE grinder. Dead cheap to make in a week- and will do drills and lathe tools and milling cutters. All this rigmarole about graduated things in degrees is reduced to turning a square holder over 4 times- and each turn indexes the previous one as it goes through 90, then 180 and 270 degrees and back to nothing. It's interesting !

My other 'moonbeam' is the tile cutter- from you know who. It's got a motor, its got a table and -wow- a diamond disk. Now if I have got it right, that would grind carbide. In case we have forgotten, it is the stuff that comes on the ends of drills and lathe tools.

My coffee is getting cold and my patient wife is patiently waiting.

Norman

 

[OrangeAlpine]

The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist. The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.

The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time. Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds. Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time???

NO - he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds. In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.

Rant over.

{edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site: Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com

Bill

 

[BaronJ]

The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist. The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.

At 16 or 17 years of age they are still in the school playground !

The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time. Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds. Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time???

Yes I agree. We all have to start somewhere. But taking the piss out of a newby is the fastest way to discourage them. I said in my post " I spent a very short time in a large engineering workshop. " Now you know why...

NO - he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds. In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.

Rant over.

I agree ! But this requires that the tutor has the patience and skill to guide a student. Today tutors with these skills is in very short supply. Forums such as these are, in my opinion, a veritable goldmine. I very much appreciate being able to come here and learn.

{edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site: Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com

Bill

I take that last comment in jest but do understand the sentiment.

 

[OrangeAlpine]

I do not want to take the piss out of the newby. It is needed if he is ever to progress beyond the operator stage. But to tell the newby to buy the Aloris tool post, we are reinforcing the idea that all that is needed is the proper equipment. We need to tell the newby "You don't need that stuff to learn. You might want it later."

Yes, the tutor has to be patient with the student. The site abounds with patience. He also has to be honest. That's where we are failing. When we fail to say to the student "You do not need that to become a machinist" or "You really need to learn this in order to become a machinist" we are not being honest.

My last comment is just my way of reminding folks that a major object of the site is to encourage the development of the individual machinist, not produce machine operators. Some may not be capable of becoming machinists. That does not mean we should lower our goals.

Bill

 

[Tin Falcon]

The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist. The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.

Agreed !!

The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time. Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds. Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time

IMHO it is encouraged to use HSS and learn to sharpen it.

As far as aloris type toll holders yes I recommend then . IN my opinion they save aggravation of using shims to set tool height. And yes save time as well.

NO - he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds. In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.

Rant over.

{edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site: Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com

Bill

Really?? I do not know any machine operator that can make every part of a working engine.

Tin

 

[barnesrickw]

Because in relative terms employees are costly, equipment is cheap things become more user friendly and require different and sometimes simpler skills to run. When I first learned to run a CNC, if you needed to adjust the machine, you changed the coordinates in the program. Had to find where it was in the program, and know how to change the values to get the result you needed. Last kid I talked to running a CNC turned a +/- knob on a panel next to a DRO. I hesitate to look too far down my nose at his lack of understanding of the actual function of a CNC, because I know there is some guy with a hacksaw, drill and file wondering why we spend all this money on lathes and mills.

 

[BaronJ]

Hi Guys,
Realistically this is the difference between a production workshop and a hobbyist one. Either requires a particular blend of skills. As a youth I had non and no real incentive to learn any, nor at that time did I understand what was required of me in order to earn a living.

 

[BaronJ]

I've just bought a cheap metric set of taps, dies and tapping drills from Aldi. Imagine my surprise to find that the drills are HSS and all split point.

Not had chance to use them yet so I don't know how good or bad they are. But for £17 who knows.

Replying to my own post...

I've just used the 3.3mm drill and tapped a pair of M4 x .07 holes in a length of 1" square black black bar that I am using to make a mill tramming tool. I drilled the holes dry but used "Trefolex" on the tap. It cut easily and clean as would be expected from a new tap.

So far so good... Now I need something to try the dies out.

 

[Walltoddj]

I guess I'm from the old school the first thing you learn is about safety, the next to sharpen drills, next grind your own tool bits. We had carbides but you ground your own no insert tools, as far as shimming I had the tool holders and a tool post, in fact I just made a new one for my lathe. I have got some insert tools but most are lousy finish unless you have an insert for that type of material I just hand grind a square bit and I'm good it took a lot of time and training to be able to do that. I was lucky my Dad was a tool maker and I ran his machines at 10 years old. Now most are CNC with insert tools and they are lost when it comes to hands on make it work. The knowledge is there it's just that a lot of the new one's like the easy way out and don't want to get their hands dirty not all but some.

Todd

 

[Wizard69]

Careful, in some shops a "machinist" isn't much more than an operator.

The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist. The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.

The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time. Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds. Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time???

Personally I can't imagine owning a lathe without a QCTP. I'm not sure why such an accessory is knocked so much on these forums. Maybe it has something to do with starting out on a lathe with a lantern tool post.

NO - he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds. In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.

I'd be the first to agree that learning to sharpen tooling is very important. However that again has nothing to do with the fact that carbide insert tooling is very handy. Using something that is innovative shouldn't be looked down upon, are we to dismiss new ideas like EDM or even 3D printed parts just because they are new or take a different skill set to use?

Rant over.

{edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site: Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com

Bill

I understand your point about being able to sharpen something but at the same time I don't like to dismiss modern conveniences. It is very much a two way street. We must remember there was a time when a vertical mill was considered new technology. Today shapers and horizontals are often dismissed in the home shop.

 

[Wizard69]

I do not want to take the piss out of the newby. It is needed if he is ever to progress beyond the operator stage. But to tell the newby to buy the Aloris tool post, we are reinforcing the idea that all that is needed is the proper equipment.

I don't buy this one bit! A decent tool post makes it easier to switch tools, they still need to be setup correctly and sharpened correctly.

We need to tell the newby "You don't need that stuff to learn. You might want it later."

Why? The first reality is that most lathes come with tool posts these days that amount to being crap. Frankly this is like telling somebody they don't need a bench grinder to shape and sharpen tools as they can do everything required with an Arkansas stone and a little oil.

Yes, the tutor has to be patient with the student. The site abounds with patience. He also has to be honest. That's where we are failing. When we fail to say to the student "You do not need that to become a machinist" or "You really need to learn this in order to become a machinist" we are not being honest.

When you say you don't need something to do XYZ all you are expressing is an opinion. Especially in this industry where there are multiple ways to do anything. As an aside there was a point in my life where the idea that a magnifying glass would become an important tool was laughable, now my opinion has changed and I'm seriously thinking that I need a selection of magnifying devices to work in the shop. Opinions change.

If you where to say you need to learn to sharpen tool steel to be a machinist that can also be seen as an opinion. The difference is it is well accepted in the industry as a measure of skill.

My last comment is just my way of reminding folks that a major object of the site is to encourage the development of the individual machinist, not produce machine operators. Some may not be capable of becoming machinists. That does not mean we should lower our goals.

Bill

Actually I thought it was all about engine building. Again it is a matter of perspective, not everyone has the strong desire to refine their machinist skills to the same extent as everybody else. The funny thing here is that I came to this site to learn more about machining and not so much about engine building. As noted there is a fantastic array of skills represented on this forum. To keep the newbies interested we need to be flexible and not absolute in our declarations.

 

[Nerdz]

Being a newbie in the machinist world, Ive had to learn how to make my own tooling, because tooling is expensive. For Example: A decent boring bar is $100 bucks, when all it is, is just a piece of hardened steel with a HSS bit in it. Well in order to use that HSS bit properly, I have to grind it. The odd thing here is I have no prior knowledge on how to machine anything, but I will confess that way back in high school (2000-2001), I used a large lathe, and in all honesty, that was for a total of 10 days! We didnt do much in theory, but it was all hands on. We didnt learn tool grinding and such, because it was an exploratory program (I went to a tech high school). Everything else has been filled in with research and lots of reading. Does that make me a machinists? (Id like to say yes, but I feel Im more of an apprentice)

I still dont own a QCTP (yet), I somewhat dont mind having to shim out my bits, because in all honesty, after a while I remember which little bits of scrap to use for shimming (I currently use 5/16 Bits and my current one hasnt needed to be sharpened in a while).

Now the whole tool grinding thing doesnt just apply to machining too, I have noticed it in the world of electronics. There are "easy" hardware/software items that you can buy to teach you the basics of electronics, such as the Arduino. However, it does not teach you the fundamentals as I have learned as a EET (and this is my personal peeve)! It does not teach you how to use registers, or what the micro is actually doing, nor does it teach you voltage and current laws.

So someone can easily program something, but do they understand whats going on behind the scenes? No. I can say the same thing about myself in a way, that I have used "easy" programming languages out of pure lazyness, but I do know whats going on behind the scenes.