The Great Metric System Debate.

[P.J]

The is a classic argument on the subject...

Metric vs. Imperial

or Will the USA ever go metric?

Ladies and gentlemen, we are here today to determine the United States measurement challenge once and for all.

In the blue corner we have our current US champion for many years, weighing in at 220.4623 pounds, our hero: Igor Imperial.

In the red corner we have, weighing in at 100kg all the way from France, and currently storming the world wherever he goes, our challenger: Mean Mr Metric.

It will be a great fight today and one that may change the course of history. Can Mean Mr Metric defeat Igor Imperial and change US life forever, or will Igor outwit the classy opponent and maintain his place in history.

We are about to find out.

Gentlemen, I want a clean fight. Shake hands and come out fighting on the bell.

Round 1: "DONG"

They both approach each other and meet in the middle of the ring. Metric has trained well and opens with the first punch:

How many feet in a mile?

Imperial answers after a moments hesitation with:

5280

"Good exchange there Bob, hasn't worried either of them."

"No Bill, it's still neck and neck, although Imperial took a fraction of a second to divert that question."

Imperial decides to attack with a similar strategy: How many metres in a kilometre?

Instantly, Metric flashes back with: 1000

"Wasn't that a great counter by Metric eh Bob - so quick. He's looking good tonight"

"Sure is Bill"

Imperial goes on the attack again with a curly one: How much does a litre of water weigh?

Metric comes back quickly with: 1 kilogram

"Great offense from Imperial there Bob. Combining both measurement of mass and volume - well thought out."

"Sure thing Bill, but I think he may have left himself a bit vulnerable here. If I can guess, Metric should follow up with..."

How much does a pint of water weigh?

Imperial reels back with such a tough one. He hesitates.

"Thought he'd do that Bill, he's looking shaky. I wonder how he's trained for this?"

Suddenly, Imperial's eyes light up and he comes back with:

1.0431758 pounds

"Well Bob, our champ got out of that one but it was a bit messy eh?"

"It was Bill. I think he was lucky there. Metric should come back with a tough one here if he's got it in him."

As Metric prepares for an offense, the champ Imperial slips in a sneaky one:

If 1mm of rain falls on 1 square metre of roof, how much water is collected?

"What a shot Bob! That'll hurt him."

Metric defends without a flinch:

1 litre

"No Bill, Metric has trained too well and has got too much ability. That reply was instananeous. You know, I think he should follow the same strategy as before and follow up with..."

If 1 point of rain falls on 1 square foot of roof, how much water is collected?

"Imperial is down!"

1 2 3 4 5 6 7...

7.97922 fl oz

"What an answer! Our boy's still got guts!"

"DONG"

End of Round 1.

"Bill, that bell came just at the right time. This fight shouldn't last the next round."

"You're right Bob, but that guy from France is just too good.

Round 2: "DONG"

Imperial comes out and slips in a gentle offense:

How many grams in a kilogram?

Metric defends:

1000

"Playground stuff there Bob."

"Yeah Bill"

Metric goes for the kill:

How many grains in an ounce?

"Uh oh. I think this is it Bob."

Imperial stutters:

uuuhhhhmmmmmmm. Which system?

"Oh Bill, he's answered with a question. That's not following the spirit of the game!"

Metric replies:

All three.

"Curtains Bill. I'm sure."

Imperial responds:

Well in Avoirdupois its 437.5, in Apothecary its 480 and the other one is... What other one?

Metric jabs:

You tell me.

Imperial falls to the floor.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

"Knocked out Bob!"

"Yeah Bill. I guess we have to get used to the idea of a new system here in the US of A. This guy is a mean lean measuring machine."

"Just let me interrupt you Bob, our man Leroy is down in the ring talking with Mean Mr Metric."

"Mean Mr Metric that was an incredible last blow there. Tell me what is that other system"

Tell you the truth, Leroy, I don't know nor care. I just know there are three and they are all stupid.

"Interesting response there from Mean Mr Metric, Back to you Bill"

"We've just got word that the judges are going to make an announcement..."

After final discussion, the judges have decided to declare the fight null and void due to the fact that the win by Mean Mr Metric would mean that some politicians might lose the next election.

-----------------------

for a more sobering view on the subject this might be worth a read: http://www.metric4us.com/whynot.html

Guy makes some pretty decent arguments, banging the drum a bit too much... but meh, whatchagonnado.

Love from Sweden,
/P.J

 

[ianjkirby]

As a challenge, sit down and design your own ideal measurement system - not a system of engineering standards but a generally useful measurement system.

A few years back, one of my Uni professors challenged us to derive a totally "new" system of units, wherein mass was defined as the mass of the earth, distance was defined as the distance from the earth to the sun, and time was defined as the period of the earth's rotation around the sun. Among other things, we had to recalculate our body mass in these terms, the average fuel in terms of the economy of a common car, and a new definition of "g", the universal gravitational constant. It certainly put my views of "standards" in perspective!!
Regards, Ian.

 

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

A logical measurement system should require no unit adjustment constant in the

F = m * a

equation. What that means is that 1 of whatever unit you use for mass times 1 of whatever unit you use for acceleration should equal 1 of whatever unit you use for force. This clean simplicity is built into the metric system because

1 Newton = 1 kg * 1 m/sec^2

Since a pound of force accelerates a pound of mass at about 32 ft/sec^2 (the acceleration of gravity, g), we can scale down the unit of force to compensate, giving us one that accelerates 1 pound mass at 1 ft/sec^2 (rather than at 32 ft/sec^2); and that is the poundal, which is approximately 1/32 pounds of force.

The poundal-as-force, pound-as-mass system is contrasted with an alternate system in which pounds are used as force (pounds-force), and instead, the mass unit is rescaled by a factor of 32. That is, one pound-force will accelerate one pound-mass at 32 ft/sec^2; we can scale up the unit of mass to compensate, which will be accelerated by 1 ft/sec^2 (rather than 32 ft/sec^2) given the application of one pound force; this gives us a unit of mass called the slug, which is about 32 pounds mass.

You only need to do about six kinematic problems using poundals and slugs to be instantly converted to the simplicity of the metric system's explicit separation of force and mass. (In fact, it's been so long since I used those abortions that I had to review them in Wikipedia, from which the previous two paragraphs are copied.)

Newtons may be out of favor in the engineering community but, trust me, in the physics and aerospace community they're alive and thriving.

The most important thing to take away from these discussions is the distinction between a measurement *system* and the application of that system to a field of human endeavor, e.g., engineering. If the common metric threads are ill-defined, that's an application problem, not a flaw in the metric system. Sheet metal gage numbers and numbered/letter drills are idiotic but they're not an indictment of the Imperial system. Rather, the people who established those standards didn't do their jobs well. The systems provided the means to do it right; the people failed. Far too many people who are damning metric are really upset about engineering mistakes and don't really understand what a measurement system is or what features it requires.

Also, get rid of the notion that every measured quantity has to come out to be a number between zero and 100 in your measurement system. It won't, no matter what you do - think about astronomy and cosmology or quantum mechanics. If Pascals are too small for you, use kPa or mPa (but make the relationship a power of ten) or allow your system to have derived units like the bar (100000 Pascal) that retain the original unit and a power of ten.

Then, once you appreciate these subtleties, sit down and design an imaginary measurement system of your own, keeping in mind the breadth of human activity it must encompass. When you're done, compare the salient features of your system to the metric system. I contend that your system, if done thoughtfully, will include most of the *features* of the metric system.

Marv,

The unit of acceleration in most applications is the Earth's gravity (g). Thus, 1 lbf = 1 lbm * 1 g. 1 lbm is what used to be called the poundal -- a nomenclature that disappeared from common usage in the mid-1970's. If the designation lb is used without comment, it is a force. The mass designation should always be lbm. I admit that I tend to use lbf and lbm when I write technical papers as it reduces possible confusion.

The standards for metric measure designate the use of a leading zero (0) when the absolute value of the number is less than one. Similarly, no trailing zeros are allowed in metric measure according to the standards. The standard for the inch-pound-second system is that no leading zero will be used and that trailing zeros are applied to designate the level of resolution (usually applied in practice as the default tolerance) of the value. I received a drawing set from a German company wherein they use trailing zeros to designate default tolerances in direct contravention of the ISO standards. They also designate the kgf as the unit of force and kgf-cm as the unit of torque. This has been increasingly common over the past three decades as the metric system tried to "catch up" with the inch-pound-second system.

If the schedule is not changed, there is a Mars lander being launched this coming August. The fuel pump for the vector thrusters that will steer it from here to Mars is one I designed and developed. The entire acceleration profile for the mission is laid out in g's -- not m/s², cm/s², in ft/s², or in/s². The feedrate for the hypergolic fuels is calculated in moles/s. I regularly design things for orbital usage and I can assure you that the dimensions that control such "missions" are neither metric nor inch-based. In point of fact, Newtons are now a "non-preferred" unit of force for space applications because of the Mars Polar Lander debacle.

 

[Maryak]

The unit of acceleration in most applications is the Earth's gravity (g). Thus, 1 lbf = 1 lbm * 1 g. 1 lbm is what used to be called the poundal -- a nomenclature that disappeared from common usage in the mid-1970's.

Pardon my ignorance but a poundal is a unit of force - well at least according to the Oxford dictionary.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[New_Guy]

reminds me of a talk i had with my girl friend who said another friend told her, her boy friend had something 16" long...... ill let you guys guess but its not his feet lol she wouldn't let me explain just how long 16" really is

great story thanks for telling now i what i want to know is why you guys leave the U out of Colour ;D

 

[Deanofid]

reminds me of a talk i had with my girl friend who said another friend told her, her boy friend had something 16" long...... ill let you guys guess but its not his feet lol she wouldn't let me explain just how long 16" really is

great story thanks for telling now i what i want to know is why you guys leave the U out of Colour ;D

No clue to what you're talking about, but we leave the U out of Color for the same reason we leave the R out of Idea and Washington. They don't belong there!

DW

 

[tel]

Well Idea and Washington have never had an R, but colour has always had a U. But then, you blokes spell plough as plow and cheque as check- go figure???

 

[Maryak]

I can see the logic in sulfur rather than sulphur, color instead of colour, harbor instead of harbour, but why not fotograf instead of photograph, graf instead of graph, etc.

Our common language can't seem to shake its' foreign influences whichever side of the big ponds we are, (by the way the forum spell checker/chequer is having a field day).

Best Regards
Bob

 

[kcmillin]

When you look in the English dictionary, there are two words for every word. One is the original, and the second is how it should be pronounced. Why then, don't we just write every word how it is pronounced, that would eliminate any confusion. Except for accent that is, not sure how to wright down a British, or Australian accent. We all speak the same language, but is a slightly different way.

Kel


PS. A side question. My high school English teacher told me that the word "Root" is a bad word in Australia, and "Root Beer" is called "Sweet Beer". Is this true? If it is, I apologise for writing it down.

 

[potman]

It's a warm afternoon and you and I are sitting in
the back yard pouring down a few brews when the
discussion turns to measurement systems. We both
grouse about the fact that none of the existing systems
are ideal and decide that we will create a better one.

After some discussions about what would be the best
length to use the beer gets to us and we take a hike
into the woods to find a bush to water. As we are
standing there we both notice a stick laying on the
ground and quickly agree that it is the perfect length
for our new standard. We pick up the stick and go
back to ponder it and have another brew.

Quickly the discussion turns to how do we define
measurements shorter than 1s ( one stick ). Do we
use 1/2, 1/3, 1/10 of a stick, or what. Being the
compromising fellows we are, after a few more brews
and a few more bush waterings, we reach an agreement;
the shorter measurement will be called "part-o-stick".
Happy as hogs-in-a-mud-wallow we clink our mugs and
consider the day well spent.

Now all we have to do is convince only
6,822,744,064 other people
that our brilliant work should be the world standard.
Piece of cake !

So, y'all want to come over and have a beer this
afternoon? We have an idea to talk over with you.

Earl...

 

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Pardon my ignorance but a poundal is a unit of force - well at least according to the Oxford dictionary.

Bob,

The Poundal is the old name for "Pound-mass" (abbreviated as lbm). It is the mass that, when accelerated by 1 g, generates one pound of force -- definition from McNeese and Hoag Engineering & Technical Handbook (1957).

 

[mklotz]

Wiktionary...

(dated) (physics) A unit equal to the force needed to accelerate a mass of one pound at a rate of one foot per second per second.

Wikipedia...

The poundal is a unit of force that is part of the foot-pound-second system of units, a coherent subsystem of English units introduced in 1879, and one of several specialized subsystems of mechanical units used as aids in calculations. It is defined as 1 lb·ft·s-2, or in words, as the force necessary to accelerate a pound of mass at 1 foot per second, per second. 1 pdl = 0.138254954376 N exactly.

Free Dictionary...

A unit of force in the foot-pound-second system of measurement, equal to the force required to accelerate a standard one-pound mass one foot per second per second (approximately 0.138 newton).

Merriam-Webster...

a unit of force equal to the force that would give a free mass of one pound an acceleration of one foot per second per second

Your Dictionary...

the basic unit of force in the FPS system, equal to the force which imparts an acceleration of one foot per second per second to a mass of one pound (0.1383 newton or 13,825.5 dynes): abbrev. pdl

 

[Deanofid]

Well Idea and Washington have never had an R, but colour has always had a U. But then, you blokes spell plough as plow and cheque as check- go figure???

Kind of my point there, Tel. I was poking fun at some of my countrymen who say "ideer" and "Warshington".
We have enough words with letters we don't vocalize. No need to add more that were never there!

 

[mklotz]

All those extra 'r's in the Northwest are just a manifestation of the natural law of the conservation of consonants.

They're there to balance all the missing 'r's in the cahs and pahks in the neighborhood around Havahd Yahd.

 

[black85vette]

All those extra 'r's in the Northwest are just a manifestation of the natural law of the conservation of consonants.

They're there to balance all the missing 'r's in the cahs and pahks in the neighborhood around Havahd Yahd.

Never thought of it that way. So in a sense we keep the forces of nature balanced by keeping extra R's in one part of the universe to balance out the lack of them in another?? Not sure that works out mathematically. But should we use metric or imperial when doing that calculation?

 

[arnoldb]

Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

I wasn't about to get into the annual metric/imperial debate (I use whatever is convenient), and I steer away from linguistics as well, but Dean and Marv's posts made me ROTFLMAO - even the parrot's laughing Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}
Arnold

B85V: 1.27 R's, 1.27 L's (go figure ) to one part H's and all should be good to go :big: - You posted while I was busy....

 

[mklotz]

It's not just the consonants that need to be conserved and dispersed uniformly. Imbalances in the vowel-force threaten tongue muscles across the globe.

We Americans are ever responsive to such crises and eager to help wherever we can. Even as I write, an emergency shipment of vowels is being prepared and will be sent to Wales, and the Welsh will be trained in the use of them. The town of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch will be renamed "Waialea" to restore the alphabetic balance in the UK.

 

[cidrontmg]

Just a wee bit more about the original topic. I know that 1 inch is nowadays (since1959) 25.4 mm exactly. My lathe (at least the "industrial stand" it sits on)
was made before that, I think.
Sorry about the pic quality, but I guess you see what I mean. When this Myford Super 7 (the stand) was made, inches were shorter. Maybe that´s the reason why I often turn inaccurate work ;D

 

[Daniel]

Some Comedy from a friendly family debate, based on a true story. And proof, that I win every debate that I enter. This is not meant to affend anyone, and is only the thinking of one person, but worth a read.


The Great Metric System Debate
==============================

By the same token a similar discussion could result with a different outcome:


ME = My Brother. And Her = My Neice


HER: Dad, I need money for a haircut


ME: Why do you need a haircut?


HER: I need to take a few centimeters off the back


ME: Centimeters? - Who the hell is teaching you to use centimeters to measure your hair. Liberal teachers are infiltrating and taking over our entire education system.


HER: Dad, centimeters are small, and I just need a LITTLE off


ME: You mean 1/2 Inch


HER: No - a few centimeters


ME: Yeah - try asking your stylist to take off a few centimeters, and she will look at you like you are a crazy French woman


HER: What are you talking about


ME: The French - they invented the flawed way of measuring things now known as the "Metric System"


HER: Everyone uses the metric system, except for us... Maybe we are the ones with the flawed system


ME: WHAT! - Nothing American is flawed, including our system of measurement, plus, we aren't the only ones, I am pretty sure Liberia uses our system.


HER: Actually, no. People who have traveled to Liberia have found the metric system in use. Your information must be as out dated as American measuring units.


ME: Who cares about Liberia anyway! Don't you see, our system is far superior. Who knows what a centimeter, or meter or kilometer actually is? - I sure don't. But I do know what an inch is, a foot, a yard and a mile. All of them perfect. 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, 5280 feet in a mile. It all makes perfect sense. And we can get small too... half-inch, quarter-inch, eighth-inch, sixteenth-inch - you see, never ending, and easy to remember. Don't even get me started on Rods, Fathom's and Leagues.


HER: Who knows what a centimetre, metre or kilometre are? Everyone in the world does? Just because you are ignorant doesn't mean everyone else else. If your choice of outdated units was so wonderful everybody would be using them and you wouldn't be so angry because that makes you a minority.


ME: Are you calling me ignorant?


HER: umm...yes....if the shoe fits wear it! Your system is complex and the metric system is easy. Easy means less cost and fewer mistakes


ME: See what I am saying? - "Easy" equals "Lazy" equals a well thought out plan by the French to take over the world and make us all have 35 hour work weeks and 28 paid holidays a year.


HER: Sounds good to me. You seem to have a hang-up about the French, why are you so jealous of their success? And it isn't just the French who use it and are prospering because of it. The whole world is. Easy doesn't equal lazy, easy equals efficient. Your outdated units make for a lot of inefficiency.


ME: And furthermore, the Metric system is based on an incorrect measurement of the circumference of the earth...The guy that tried to figure it out, screwed up, but was afraid to tell the king of France. So now, the entire Metric system is based on an incorrect measurement. Imagine if we started using it, everything that we measure would be WRONG!! We'd have crooked houses, and leaning buildings - thank God for Feet and Inches


HER: Are you kidding me...really?....Boy when you are wrong and know you are wrong you sure come up with a crock of crap. Does it matter how it was made? - no.... What matters is that today the metre is accurately defined via the speed of light and even you beloved outdated units are defined from the metre. They are parasites having to cling to the metre for meaning.


ME: How dare you call my beloved units parasites! They are time honoured.


HER: Oh my God


ME: Do you really want the French to take over? - Look what they did to Quebec


HER: The French are not going to take over. But the Europeans and Asians because they use the metric system have taken all of our industrial jobs. What was once made in inches in the US is now made in metric elsewhere. Even your American cars are metric. I'll bet you didn't know that.


ME: To prove my point, do you know how many Kilometers is it from Bismarck, ND to Eugene, Oregon?


HER: I have no idea


ME: Exactly, nobody knows kilometers, because in America, we use Miles


HER: Ok then, do you even know how many "Miles" it is to Eugene, Oregen?


ME: Of course I do.


HER: Obviously you don't


ME: Ok - Fine, I have 2 words for you: "Mars Polar Lander"


HER: What...


ME: "Mars Polar Lander"


HER: That's 3 words


ME: Maybe so, but those 3 words represent a spaceship, that CRASHED into the surface of mars, instead of gently "LANDING" - Do you know why?


HER: Please tell me


ME: The Metric System


HER: Dad...Shut up


ME: It's true, some idiot put into the computer measurements in Meters instead of Feet....And what happened? - It Crashed. If not for the Metric system, the Mars Polar Lander, would have actually landed, but no, the French sent us the "Mars Polar Crasher" instead


HER: What a load of crap. The Mars Polar Lander crashed because NASA did use the metric system and a sub-contractor didn't, even though the contract required it. It was the use of outdated units that caused the crash.


ME: Ok smarty pants, do YOU know how many Meters it is from Mars Orbit to the surface of Mars? - I don't think so.


HER: When you argue with me, you just make stuff up to support an opinion that you obviously know is wrong but you are afraid to admit. Dad, just admit it, I'm right, you're wrong, Metric system is better.


ME: Not according to the NFL I'm not


HER: I don't care


ME: Yeah, well, Tony Dorsett sure cares. He still holds the longest Rushing Touchdown record at 99 yards. Are you telling me that you want Tony Dorsett to be stripped of his record in the Record Books? Or worse, have his record written as "90.5256 Meters" - Doesn't really roll off the tongue now does it?? Not only that, but what would you have the Indy 500 renamed to? - "The Indy 804.672"? - I am sure drivers and spectators would flock from Miles (er. Kilometers) around to witness the Historical Tradition of the Annual Indy 804.672.


HER: Only a user of outdated units would come up with crap like you do. Tony Dorsett's record would be 90 m when rounded to sensible numbers and the Indy 500 could be extended to 1000 km and be called the Indy 1000. Please keep away from my friends, your total lack of intelligence would be a great embarrassment to me.


ME: Well, I won the argument anyway because I said so.


HER: Because I Won, a looong-time-ago


ME: Communists use the Metric system you know. Apparently that is what you want for us, to live under the harsh oppressive rule of a communist dictatorship. How many square METERS of land do you own? - NONE - because the government owns it and has stripped you of your private property, and convinced you that they know best leaving you a sad and dependent soul who knows not the joy of owning your own 10 acre parcel of land. Thank you honey, for ruining our country and everything we believe in.


...


HER: communists? What century are you living in? Communism died decades ago. Even the Chinese who have the fastest growing economy in the world have a capitalistic economy. They are making all of our products in metric.


ME: Yeah


HER: I still need a haircut


ME: Why


HER: I need to take a centimetre off the back.

ME: Well, I can't give you any money. I lost my job when I refused to go along with the company's decision to metricate. I'm now blacklisted and will never get a decent job again. But, you know what? I'd rather be broke and homeless then have to use the metric system.

HER: Sooner then you think.

[/quote]

 

[Daniel]

= 236/64 = 3 11/16 ??? or 93.66233775

This is exactly where the conflict comes into play. When you choose a set of units to work with, you gravitate towards sensible rounded numbers. Sensible rounded numbers in one unit don't translate to sensible rounded numbers in another unit.

To those of us who work in the metric system, the number 93.66233775 is meaningless. We would round it to 94 mm. However, this may present a problem if a part made to 3 11/16 inches and 94 mm don't fit together.

Since the whole world is now metric and the fastest growing industries use only the metric system, this presents a numbers problem with those who still cling to obsolete inch based sizes.

Jobs are fleeing the US, especially those jobs where products are made to measurements. Products once made in inches in the US have been metricated and are now made in metric units elsewhere. I guess Americans would prefer to be unemployed or working for slave wages than use the metric system and be prosperous. America's loss is the world's gain.

BTW, if I multiply 3.6875 by 25.4 I get 99.6625. Where did you get 93.66233775?